94 replies to this topic

[Ar558]

Hmm not quite but they must be within 20-30 bhp especially based on Sauber's performance

[AndersTallinder]

Do you guys think Ferrari PU is equal to Mercedes PU right now? if they are indeed giving identical engines to their customer teams, looking at williams and sauber is interesting, sauber in particular, tiny budget, last years wings on car, but still coming 5th. Williams - same PU as Mercs, still down a lot on them and on par with Ferrari, so it suggest the advantage of mercs is not the PU?

 

I'm curious: is there an actual rule that states customer engines have to be the same spec or is this simply a meme that hung around from last season, when the engines were new and thus couldn't be a year older spec like usual? Last season's engines are perfectly legal to run this season AFAIK, but I would presume Ferrari wouldn't dare still give one of them to Sauber while Mercedes would be content having Williams compete with last season slower but still WCC winning engine IMO.

[aramos]

Getting close. They're miles ahead of Renault. 

[wift]

I'm curious: is there an actual rule that states customer engines have to be the same spec or is this simply a meme that hung around from last season, when the engines were new and thus couldn't be a year older spec like usual? 

Actually, this is a really interesting question. If I have understood the situation correctly, there is no rule. People are saying "Why would Merc supply Williams with an inferior engine?" Well, why not? If you have a chance to give yourself an edge in the game without breaking the rules you should take it. Williams was actually challenging Merc last season, at least in some races. I do not however think that they get the last years engine. But I think they are getting a version without the newest bells and whistles... At least on the sofware side.

Edited by wift, 20 March 2015 - 06:17.

[ascoli]

Better than last year, but still waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay behind Mercedes Benz.

 

They are pointed in the right direction, so there's nowhere to go but up from here.

 

I do believe they are only waaaaaaaaaaaay behind

[Cyanide]

They're basically the only team right now capable of catching Mercedes. Red Bull is on a downward spiral and Williams don't have the funds or the engine to compete against them. 

[HoldenRT]

Which is another crazy restriction. A better solution would be to have teams nominate an allotment of say 5/6 gear ratios for use over a season.

 

Agree.  Gear ratios and adjusting them have always been a fundamental part of racing, and I find it crazy/strange that they think it's a good thing to have them unadjustable.

 

What's next?  Frozen anti roll bars?  Mandated ride height?
 

[Peter Perfect]

Actually, this is a really interesting question. If I have understood the situation correctly, there is no rule. People are saying "Why would Merc supply Williams with an inferior engine?" Well, why not? If you have a chance to give yourself an edge in the game without breaking the rules you should take it. Williams was actually challenging Merc last season, at least in some races. I do not however think that they get the last years engine. But I think they are getting a version without the newest bells and whistles... At least on the sofware side.

 

I thought the hardware had to be the same (as it was the PU that's homologated) but, going by McLarens experience last year, the software is written for the manufacturers team with the customer being unable to rewrite it for their needs. Even then I don't know if they have to give the latest version of the code, could they give out a slightly crippled version?

[wift]

They're basically the only team right now capable of catching Mercedes. Red Bull is on a downward spiral and Williams don't have the funds or the engine to compete against them. 

Yup, here's hoping that the smirk on Allison's face after the first race in the Kravitz interview means that there is still more to come. Ferrari has more development room for the engine left than Merc, so if they get it right they could close the gap a bit. 

[wift]

I thought the hardware had to be the same (as it was the PU that's homologated) but, going by McLarens experience last year, the software is written for the manufacturers team with the customer being unable to rewrite it for their needs. Even then I don't know if they have to give the latest version of the code, could they give out a slightly crippled version?

Ok, so the hardware side is the same. But the software is what basically controls the engine and how it works.

 

And I am pretty sure that Merc always has a newer, and better version before the customer teams get it.

Edited by wift, 20 March 2015 - 06:53.

[FirstWatt]

There are not much indications yet that the Ferrari engine is inferior to the Merc engine.

Sauber has a reasonably quick car, Ferrari and Sauber didn't use more fuel on a fuel critical circuit than the Williams, top speeds of both represent the aero philosophy of the teams and seem not power limited.
Driveability also doesn't seem to be an issue anymore.

[Petroltorque]

If you can believe it; the weakness of the Ferrari PU was the ICE and not the ERS which was relatively efficient and had to compensate for the weakness of the ICE by running different maps. What I understand is Maranello upgraded their turbo and related ancillaries to address this deficit. The general rule of thumb under these present regs 60bhp equates to 1s a lap provided aero, tyres and fuel load are equivalent. The present performance now puts a lie to the false premise that these PUs have all development locked down. Teams have made PU changes in the off season. The in season token allocation allows development as well just not unfettered. The PU allocation rules over the season means that although basic design may be homologated that iteration can change during the season. Teams supplied by the same manufacturer may have differing versions of the same homologated unit.

[Christbiscuit]

There's no doubt there is more to Ferrari's game this year than a new chassis. Interestingly, this more than poo-poo's Horner's bleating about being unable to catch up due to engine restrictions. It can be done under the current restrictions, clearly.

[BJHF1]

I certainly don't think they're on par with the Merc power unit, but maybe they have caught up a bit...although it's tough to judge, especially after just one race. I believe they've gone to a larger turbine which has likely given them better top end and ERS capabilities. One things clear, they've certainly pulled well clear of Renault who seemed to have only gone backwards (at least with what they brought to the first race), but Mercedes have likely done the same.

So many keep going on about Sauber's great result at Melbourne and how this must be attributed to a vastly improved Ferrari PU (one already commonly claimed to have made great in roads on Merc). But I think it's worth mentioning that their gap to Mercedes in Q3 this year was greater than that in Q1 of 2014 (the only dry session), while Nasr still finished some 95 seconds behind the leader this year, which I don't believe is all to different to last years result.

It's easy to be flattered by Sauber's result with the Renault teams out of the picture, only one Williams racing, and a Mclaren team nowhere to be found. Also looking at speed trap figures, comparing this year to last doesn't tell a whole lot either (as last year ferrari weren't bad at all - both were faster than Hamilton's Merc), although speed trap figures don't tell us much to begin with...unless the numbers are dramatically poor, as in Renault's case.

[Ferrari2183]

I don't believe Ferrari are using the larger turbo yet. It's part of their development plan as per AMuS.

[OO7]

Which is another crazy restriction. A better solution would be to have teams nominate an allotment of say 5/6 gear ratios for use over a season.

But these engines have so much torque that it doesn't make much difference.  Having a fixed set of gear ratios also helps with overtaking, as cars are far less likely to hit the limiter.

[rasul]

I think some people are getting ahead of themselves. It was just one good race. Let's see the gap in Malaysia. It's possible that Williams will be actually ahead of Ferrari there.

[Gyno]

Last year Mclaren did great in Melbourne.

Looked what happened to them for the rest of the season.

Same thing could happen to Ferrari.

[Jvr]

But these engines have so much torque that it doesn't make much difference.  Having a fixed set of gear ratios also helps with overtaking, as cars are far less likely to hit the limiter.

That can also be used as an argument in the other way: If there is so much torque that it does not make much difference between the tracks, why to limit this?

[Seano]

I suspect all three base ICE are all pretty similar in characteristics (the regs are very prescriptive). If you were to strip all of the fancy ERS and chargers off them and run them NA on a dyno, you probably wouldn't see much between them (they'd all sound much the the same too).

 

Merc's main advantage would appear to be in the efficiency of power delivery of the PU. The Ferrari could possibly get fairly close for a short while but then run out of fuel/overheat.

 

Seano

[OO7]

That can also be used as an argument in the other way: If there is so much torque that it does not make much difference between the tracks, why to limit this?

Cost saving.

[jurchenking]

No, definitely not equal.  Ferrari engine is vastly inferior to Mercedes.  I doubt Ferrari can level up to the Mercedes engine this season.

 

And Ferrari have only themselves to blame for agreeing to regulations which negated their competitive advantage  !  If Ferrari has alleged veto power, why didn't they use it to protect their advantage? Ferrari's advantages are unlimited testing on a private track and big budget.  Only God knows why they willingly gave up practical empirical testing in favour of simulation modelling tools (which they lack experience compared to the garagistes), and powerful V12/V10/V8 engines (drawing from their supercar manufacturing experience) in favour of complex hybrid "eco-friendly" V6 turbos (where mass market mainstream manufacturers like Mercedes, Renault and Honda have longer experience)?

 

I don't blame Mercedes for trying to restrict engine modification regulations or Red Bull trying to overturn them. They're simply trying to protect their respective advantage (Mercedes engine and Red Bull aero superiority).  The goal of competition is to win, period. Dominate if possible.  

 

That's why, as in life, people who were good for an organization at the beginning might be bad at the end of their tenure.  Luca di Montezemolo is an example.  He was instrumental in revitalizing Ferrari during the middle phase of his career but dragging Ferrari down during the final phase of his career.  Ross Brawn, when he was leaving Ferrari, was equally guilty for agreeing or persuading Luca to agree to changes in regulation which set Ferrari back for 8 years now?  We know Ross was pissed at being passed over for the team principal job so maybe that was his way of screwing Ferrari back.

 

Ferrari is once again playing catch-up.  Back to the 1990s. 

[Juan Kerr]

Do you guys think Ferrari PU is equal to Mercedes PU right now? if they are indeed giving identical engines to their customer teams, looking at williams and sauber is interesting, sauber in particular, tiny budget, last years wings on car, but still coming 5th. Williams - same PU as Mercs, still down a lot on them and on par with Ferrari, so it suggest the advantage of mercs is not the PU?

Merc are strongest in cornering aero and engine by a long way, good mechanical too. Their aero is actually better than RBR now whereas it wasn't last year.

[OO7]

Merc are strongest in cornering aero and engine by a long way, good mechanical too. Their aero is actually better than RBR now whereas it wasn't last year.

[Seanspeed]

I find it hard to believe they'd have improved quite *that* much. I mean, obviously its better and its closer, but to close the entire gap in such a short period of time is a bit unrealistic.

[maverick69]

They're still off a bit in absolute power - but it's the drivability and efficiency of energy recovery and deployment where they've got quite close IMHO.

[Topsu]

How should anyone honestly know anything about these engines? The conversation pretty much goes like this:

 

-I think Merc is still more powerful

-No, I think Ferrari has closed the gap

-I still think I'm right

 

And neither of those guys have zero proof for their non-existent arguments.

[Wuzak]

I find it hard to believe they'd have improved quite *that* much. I mean, obviously its better and its closer, but to close the entire gap in such a short period of time is a bit unrealistic.

 

I think that there were a couple of fundamental problems with Ferrari's 2014 PU which caused it to be less powerful than the Mercedes, particularly with the ERS.

 

The new PU has, most likely, got a much larger turbine and the ERS will have been modified to take best advantage of that.

 

We also saw that last year's PU that the ERS was limited in use. This year it seems that the MGUH can feed the MGUK directly now, which means they have more power available more of the time.

[Wuzak]

An, FWIW, Ferrari could have closed the gap but the Mercedes can still be more powerful.

[Grundle]

The Mercedes still uses the least fuel, meaning it still has the best energy recovery system. The Williamses were so frugal on fuel consumption last year.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Why cant Ferrari produce another engine in isolation under a different name? Sure funds are an issue but they have mega bucks. Same goes for Honda and Renault too.

[REDalert]

The Mercedes still uses the least fuel, meaning it still has the best energy recovery system. The Williamses were so frugal on fuel consumption last year.

Ferrari has still some tokens left in saddlebag. They have not yet introduced bigger turbo which should reduce fuel consumption by harvesting more heat energy. 

[Rasputin]

Do you guys think Ferrari PU is equal to Mercedes PU right now? if they are indeed giving identical engines to their customer teams, looking at williams and sauber is interesting, sauber in particular, tiny budget, last years wings on car, but still coming 5th. Williams - same PU as Mercs, still down a lot on them and on par with Ferrari, so it suggest the advantage of mercs is not the PU?

 

[OO7]

How should anyone honestly know anything about these engines? The conversation pretty much goes like this:

 

-I think Merc is still more powerful

-No, I think Ferrari has closed the gap

-I still think I'm right

 

And neither of those guys have zero proof for their non-existent arguments.

The knowledge comes from the fact that both Ferrari and Sauber have made a significant step forward, with Monisha Kaltenborn stating that the jump was large due to the improved PU.  Also both Ferrari and Sauber were very close to the Mercedes powered cars in the speed traps.

[YoungGun]

Rosberg and Hamilton were 11 and 12th respectively in the speed traps, not sure what conclusions can be drawn from that.

[Hyatt]

it seems Ferrai is at least very close ... and even as a Merc supporter I'm happy^* about it since it helps to shut Horners mouthpiece ...

 

 

* (happy will turn to angry as soon as they starting to beat us ;))

Edited by Hyatt, 22 March 2015 - 14:02.

[DKMoto]

No, the hardware might be close but the software isnt close at all. Germany is known for their Mechanical Engineers + using Eastern European programmers / coders, Italy has a problem with both of these categories, they are mostly still stuck in the past while BMW/Mercedes/Audi have been on the forefront of computers in cars begging in the 80's, there's a reason that the cost to roll back KM on a new German car is 10x higher than a domestic/regular EU car, much less a Domestic US car which any clown with a OBD can do now and couldve done 10 years ago.

 

I feel Ferrarri handicap is their SW and not their HW. But its that mentality where they think they know it all and refuse to outsource help so they are stuck with Italian programmers which on the world stage are kind of a joke.

[bonjon1979a]

No, the hardware might be close but the software isnt close at all. Germany is known for their Mechanical Engineers + using Eastern European programmers / coders, Italy has a problem with both of these categories, they are mostly still stuck in the past while BMW/Mercedes/Audi have been on the forefront of computers in cars begging in the 80's, there's a reason that the cost to roll back KM on a new German car is 10x higher than a domestic/regular EU car, much less a Domestic US car which any clown with a OBD can do now and couldve done 10 years ago.

 

I feel Ferrarri handicap is their SW and not their HW. But its that mentality where they think they know it all and refuse to outsource help so they are stuck with Italian programmers which on the world stage are kind of a joke.

 

is this all true about Ferrari? I find it hard to believe a company like Ferrari wouldn't get the best people available. this feels a bit of a jingoistic assumption to me but I don't know, perhaps it's really the case. I'd like to know more about their workforce though to see if there is any credence to this.

[Seanspeed]

is this all true about Ferrari? I find it hard to believe a company like Ferrari wouldn't get the best people available. this feels a bit of a jingoistic assumption to me but I don't know, perhaps it's really the case. I'd like to know more about their workforce though to see if there is any credence to this.

Its very hard to get into a discussion about Ferrari's merits/failings without at least one person jumping to the 'its because of those arrogant, stupid Italians' conclusion.

[bonjon1979a]

Its very hard to get into a discussion about Ferrari's merits/failings without at least one person jumping to the 'its because of those arrogant, stupid Italians' conclusion.

yeah, it seems pretty jingoistic to me and I find it simply impossible to believe that they're not going to get the best they can. I can believe that it's more difficult for ferrari to persuade employees to give up their lives in England or wherever and move to Italy as it's quite a big upheaval. For those engineers living in and around milton keynes, they can quite easily move between teams without effecting their family life. I'd be there in a shot though, love Italy, love the people, the culture, the weather but I've been waiting for the job offer for some time and they haven't come knocking. Only a matter of time though...

 

With regard to the PU deficit or not, has anyone been able to access the live timing tracker to review the race? I've not been able to do so. in particular, i'd be interested to see the difference between Sauber and Williams, Ferrari and Williams, cornering speed and then speed on the straights. Not just the speed trap data as that can be misleading.

 

Personally, I can believe ferrari are still down 20-30 hp possibly a bit more but I think we'll get a better read of things in Malaysia.

[Regazzoni]

No, the hardware might be close but the software isnt close at all. Germany is known for their Mechanical Engineers + using Eastern European programmers / coders, Italy has a problem with both of these categories, they are mostly still stuck in the past while BMW/Mercedes/Audi have been on the forefront of computers in cars begging in the 80's, there's a reason that the cost to roll back KM on a new German car is 10x higher than a domestic/regular EU car, much less a Domestic US car which any clown with a OBD can do now and couldve done 10 years ago.

 

I feel Ferrarri handicap is their SW and not their HW. But its that mentality where they think they know it all and refuse to outsource help so they are stuck with Italian programmers which on the world stage are kind of a joke.

 

In fact Europe - UK and Germany in the first place - are full of top Italian engineers doing what the natives can't or won't do.

 

http://www.repubblic...tero-110242042/

 

Such bigoted opinions never cease to amaze me.

[CountDooku]

In fact Europe - UK and Germany in the first place - are full of top Italian engineers doing what the natives can't or won't do.

http://www.repubblic...tero-110242042/

Such bigoted opinions never cease to amaze me.

It's not really about nationality or origin, it's just about where people with these skills tend to congregate. See silicon valley for example. It's full of non-Americans who go there for the tech industry and network with like-minded people.
In economics it's called agglomeration.

Edited by CountDooku, 23 March 2015 - 18:09.

[quasi C]

Ferrari does well: they have a lot of foreign talent in their ranks. Ferrari does badly: those dumb Italians again.

 

Funny how an Italian has overseen the design of one of the most dominant cars in F1 history and this years looks to be a wash too.

[CountDooku]

Funny how an Italian has overseen the design of one of the most dominant cars in F1 history and this years looks to be a wash too.

That's kinda my point. Italy has a lot of brilliant engineers but the European motor racing hub is in SE England. It's full of foreigners. Ferrari will have to pay much more to get non-Italians to move to Maranello.

[Jvr]

Here is an interesting article by Enrico Benzing where he compares the results at Australian GP and looks at the engine performance based on the data collected from there. His conclusion is that Merc PU is still a top dog even at the peak power. Whole story can be found here: http://www.formula1b...g.eu/index.html

 

Edited by Jvr, 24 March 2015 - 14:43.