75 replies to this topic

[Dolph]

The figures are reported at 20m euros per season (or 10m euro per car).  Whereas the 2.4 V8s were reported to cost 5m euros per season.

 

Is that 5m per car or per team as you quoted 20m?

[johnmhinds]

Not to let facts get in the way, but Ferrari and Renault have both stated that they wish to stay with the current engine Formula.  In fact, just last week Renault stated that they did not want big upheavals in the engine rules and that they favoured minor tweaks to the current regulations. 

 

Of course they don't want to change the regulations. The engine manufacturers are getting way more money out of the sport now.

Edited by johnmhinds, 18 March 2015 - 18:19.

[johnmhinds]

Is that 5m per car or per team as you quoted 20m?

 

The Cosworth deal was £5.5million to supply a team with engines for a whole season.

 

 

http://www.neowin.ne...ender-for-2010/

 

The cost to each team taking up this option will be an up-front payment of £1.68M (€1.97M) and then £5.49M (€6.42M) per season for each of the three years of the supply contract (2010, 2011, 2012). This price is based on four teams signing up and includes full technical support at all races and official tests, plus 30,000 km of testing.

Edited by johnmhinds, 18 March 2015 - 18:31.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

The last thing F1 needs now is to radically change the engine formula - that would really upset all the current PU manufactures...

[RealRacing]

Those Indycar engines SOUNDS  GREAT compared to what F1 have.

 

I think F1 should have gone with 3.0L V6 Twin turbo.

Make it cheap, it's just an engine, no need to go all fancy with expencive materials.

Old style KERS, driver operated but with MORE POWER.

 

They could make an engine that produces 750bhp real easy that is cheap and a KERS unit that produces 150bhp for 6 seconds a lap.

 

Would Sound Great and give lots of power for a fraction of what todays engines cost.

Ditch the stupid fuel limit and allow refueling.

 

The REAL racing Fans doesn't care about the green tech that F1 is trying to showcase.

It's like if TOP GEAR change their hosts and the new ones only does eco crap and boring car reviews.

No one is gonna watch that crap.

This is contradictory. But I agree that auto-racing and fuel economy and all the other green elements are at odds. As said before, maybe F1 should be split in two series, a "racing" one and a "tech" one.

Edited by RealRacing, 18 March 2015 - 18:54.

[whitewaterMkII]

http://www.roadandtr...r-engines-2014/

 

 

Those Indy engine is in the GP2 ballpark. Imagine the moaning on the forums if these would be adopted for F1.

 

Those engines are severely limited, it would be no issue at all to tweak a lot more HP out of a 2.2 V6 twin turbo, Indycar went a different way though, they made them cost effective after the debacle CART went through with their engine wars between Honda and Toyota becoming more expensive yearly, and driving out Chevrolet and Mercedes in the process.

Like someone else pointed out above, it's like F1 first decided what was the most expensive and complicated engine design they could come up with, and then made it so. Then they made rules that they couldn't run them flat out anyway by limiting their engine supply and fuel consumption.

Stooopid

Edited by whitewaterMkII, 18 March 2015 - 19:00.

[Szoelloe]

No

[Radoye]

Those engines are severely limited, it would be no issue at all to tweak a lot more HP out of a 2.2 V6 twin turbo, Indycar went a different way though, they made them cost effective after the debacle CART went through with their engine wars between Honda and Toyota becoming more expensive yearly, and driving out Chevrolet and Mercedes in the process.

Like someone else pointed out above, it's like F1 first decided what was the most expensive and complicated engine design they could come up with, and then made it so. Then they made rules that they couldn't run them flat out anyway by limiting their engine supply and fuel consumption.

Stooopid

 

Of course these engines could be tuned to a significantly higher power output, but i suspect then the price would increase as well - of a single unit, because these would have to be built to a higher standard to make sure they don't start blowing up, and of the whole package, since some units would inevitably blow up and would have to be replaced.

 

I would expect the engine price in such case to be somewhere in the neighborhood of the old V8's. And what's the point then of introducing the Indy engine in F1? Might as well just go back to the crappy old V8's.

[whitewaterMkII]

Of course these engines could be tuned to a significantly higher power output, but i suspect then the price would increase as well - of a single unit, because these would have to be built to a higher standard to make sure they don't start blowing up, and of the whole package, since some units would inevitably blow up and would have to be replaced.

 

I would expect the engine price in such case to be somewhere in the neighborhood of the old V8's. And what's the point then of introducing the Indy engine in F1? Might as well just go back to the crappy old V8's.

I doubt very much the price would go from +/-  700k a year per car/engine (indy)  to +/- 2.5m per car/engine (F1) to tweak another 100HP out of an indy engine to equal where F1 is (allegedly) now. Don't forget that F1 is building engines for a much lighter car, a typical indy twin turbo* would light up that lighter weight F1 car like a banshee. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating an indy formula for F1, I'm just saying they are burning cubic stacks of euros for not much of an improvement...

YMMV

 

* makes me wonder what the weigh diff is between the two engines...errrr,, power units

Edited by whitewaterMkII, 19 March 2015 - 03:25.

[Peter0Scandlyn]

The Cosworth deal was £5.5million to supply a team with engines for a whole season.

 

That deal would probably last just as long as it took them to find out in the real world that they were going broke. Quickly....

[KingTiger]

I doubt very much the price would go from +/-  700k a year per car/engine (indy)  to +/- 2.5m per car/engine (F1) to tweak another 100HP out of an indy engine to equal where F1 is (allegedly) now. Don't forget that F1 is building engines for a much lighter car, a typical indy twin turbo* would light up that lighter weight F1 car like a banshee. Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating an indy formula for F1, I'm just saying they are burning cubic stacks of euros for not much of an improvement...

YMMV

 

* makes me wonder what the weigh diff is between the two engines...errrr,, power units

 

Look at the efficiency of the F1 V6s compared to the indycar F1s. That is where the improvement is. 

 

Now it's true that the F1 rules might've been written up with too much of an engineering bias, and not enough of a sporting balance; but the engines are fantastic and have no equal - Hamilton's top speed in qualifying was probably around 330 kph, while in 2013 the garbage V8s wouldn't even get to 300 on the same piece of road. 

[V8 Fireworks]

a typical indy twin turbo* would light up that lighter weight F1 car like a banshee.

YMMV

 

* makes me wonder what the weigh diff is between the two engines...errrr,, power units

 

Part of the reason that F1 car is lighter (or used to be) is because the engine and gearbox are much lighter, the f1 gearbox is at least 30 kgs lighter and the f1 V8s another 20kgs ligher than the Indy engines.

[V8 Fireworks]

but the engines are fantastic and have no equal 

 

Fantastic?

 

It's motorsport that needs to entertain the fans, it's not a fuel economy run...

 

If the fans are bored in the stands, it doesn't matter how amazing the power units are on paper or in a lab.

 

Straight line speed is the most boring part of auto racing; the corners are the exciting bit, where speeds are noticeablely slower due to the fat, heavy overcomplicated power units. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 19 March 2015 - 06:57.

[slideways]

The engine costs shown are not a realistic number of how much they cost, but an attempt by the manufacturers to recoup as much as possible of their development costs.

In a free business model that's fair enough, however in a 'sporting' model the development costs should be written off as expense required to enter a championship and be competitive. Not be pushed down to the mid field and back marker teams who simply can't afford it, and don't see the full benefit of that development cost anyway.

When the FIA then pushes for cost caps for these minnow teams to force he development costs on the manufacturers shoulders, the manufacturers block it and we see teams dropping like flies.

 

It's clear the problem with F1 is not Bernie, CVC, or to an extent even the FIA. It's that the teams still have any form of power over regulation changes. One of them even has power of veto over both commercial and regulation sides until at least 2020. 

[sergey1308]

This is contradictory. But I agree that auto-racing and fuel economy and all the other green elements are at odds. As said before, maybe F1 should be split in two series, a "racing" one and a "tech" one.

I think that "tech (and also green) one" is already exist - Formula E - and all auto innovations can be used there.

[RA2]

Toyota 2L turbo straight 4 is available Japanese SF

 

Next year 2L turbo engines of the same type will be available from BMW, Audi and Merc for DTM

 

These produce around 600 hp but can be tuned up 900 hp or more

 

If all these engines along with Indy engines are allowed that would be 7 additional engine options for non-works teams. This would allow the 7 teams to easily compete with budgets between 20 and 40 million. F1 would have 13 teams and no one will be mourning about costs

 

 

1.6 V6 hybrid - 700 kg car 100 kg fuel 100 kg/hr fuel flow limit

 

2.2 V6 - 610 kg car 110 kg fuel 110 kg/hr fuel flow limit

 

2.0 I4 - 600 kg car 110  kg fuel 110 kg/hr fuel flow limit

Edited by RA2, 19 March 2015 - 08:50.

[jee]

The Manufactures in F1 do not want variety as it would add a chance to fail by choosing the wrong concept...

[Fastcake]

The Cosworth deal was £5.5million to supply a team with engines for a whole season.

Is that £5 million figure based upon something other than a price quoted by Cosworth for a four team supply contract in 2008? Even if the four Cosworth-powered teams were paying £5m in 2010, I wonder if that was still the price once it was only Marussia and HRT taking the engines. And what were the engine contracts from Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes worth? I would presume significantly more.

I really would like to see some reliable figures on engine costs.

[aportinga]

Whenever I see stuff like this posted I think a few things quietly to myself:

 

1. OP is 14

or

2. OP doesn't understand F1

or

3. OP is new to F1 and will eventually "get it"

or

4. I'm getting too old for this ****

or

5. All of the above

 

This!

 

If F1 went to the regs that ICS uses I would be a strictly historics guy.

[MattPete]

I doubt very much the price would go from +/-  700k a year per car/engine (indy)  to +/- 2.5m per car/engine (F1) to tweak another 100HP out of an indy engine to equal where F1 is (allegedly) now. ...

 

 

I bet the cost would be $0 to add another 100hp -- just tweak the turbo boost.

[MattPete]

Part of the reason that F1 car is lighter (or used to be) is because the engine and gearbox are much lighter, the f1 gearbox is at least 30 kgs lighter and the f1 V8s another 20kgs ligher than the Indy engines.

 

Don't forget that Indycars have stronger tubs, which adds weight.  The new chassis was supposed to be 100lbs lighter, but for some reason they scrapped that idea.

[whitewaterMkII]

This!

 

If F1 went to the regs that ICS uses I would be a strictly historics guy.

When it comes to F1 I am a historics guy...some of the most beastly F1 cars are from the past, as are some of the old indycars.

[RA2]

 

 

Force India Toyota

Sauber BMW

Lotus Mugen Honda

Manor Merc

Penske Audi

 

Andretti HPD

Haas Chevrolet

[aportinga]

When it comes to F1 I am a historics guy...some of the most beastly F1 cars are from the past, as are some of the old indycars.

 

Like this...

 

[pacwest]

I notice Hamilton in your avatar.

 

Tell me, how else will Ricciardo's Red Bull have the chance to win races any time soon. 

 

You know, for more than 10 years I had NO avatar due to judegemental people like you. 

[V8 Fireworks]

Wouldn't you rather Ricciardo and Hamilton have a battle to the last lap of every race!   

 

I proudly support Jordan - Mugen Honda with my avatar.        Mugen Power FTW, yo.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 20 March 2015 - 04:08.