80 replies to this topic

[Nemo1965]

I hope I haven't forgotten any other active F1 drivers who have driven seven seasons or more.

 

I am of course interested in why you voted a certain way.

 

EDIT: I voted Button. Which naturally could come from my very low expectations of him, when he started.

Edited by Nemo1965, 22 March 2015 - 14:56.

[FerrariV12]

Between Button and Massa I'd say. The pre-accident Massa would have walked it to be honest as Button's 2000 was far more promising than Massa's 2002. 

[Massa]

Massa by far. Remember his first two season and then his 2006, 2008 and his best season 2009.

[Nemo1965]

Between Button and Massa I'd say. The pre-accident Massa would have walked it to be honest as Button's 2000 was far more promising than Massa's 2002. 

 

Those two would have been my pick, too. Perhaps I would have to look at Massa's driving-style from back then to now. When Williams chose Button instead of Bruno Junqueira and I saw Button first races, I thought: 'Decent bloke. Neat and tidy. Nothing special. Chosen because he is British.' Some GP's later: 'He get the results though.' His driving for BAR-Honda (and subsequently beating Jacques Villeneuve) changed my perspective again, but, like I said, that could have come from my low expectations! But I think he really improved in his inter-team battle with Hamilton. But hey, perceptions, perceptions, perceptions. 

[P123]

I hope I haven't forgotten any other active F1 drivers who have driven seven seasons or more.
 
I am of course interested in why you voted a certain way.
 
EDIT: I voted Button. Which naturally could come from my very low expectations of him, when he started.

JB did have a dip in his second season, so I guess he has improved hugely if you focus on that. The biggest improvement though would probably be Massa. He was a bit erratic before he went to Ferrari.

[Scuderia312]

Hamilton. Yes, he was quick from the off, but he was making a lot of mistakes which he ironed out throughout the years. I don't remember the beginnings of Massa and Button's careers so can't judge them.

[Nemo1965]

JB did have a dip in his second season, so I guess he has improved hugely if you focus on that. The biggest improvement though would probably be Massa. He was a bit erratic before he went to Ferrari.

 

I try - although it is tough - to look beyond the results. For me three things are important: 1. Crash less and less during your career. 2. Beat your team-mate or be quite close or get closer. 3. Improve your weaknesses in braking, steering, or whatever. 4. Improve your overtaking skills.

 

I think Button scores high in 1. 2. and 4.

 

EDIT: Hamilton has improved the most of all current drivers in area 1, as Scuderia posted. I myself never expected him to iron it out as much as he had.

Edited by Nemo1965, 21 March 2015 - 19:25.

[Beamer]

Weird poll... Why 7 years? Why not 5? or 10?

[Okyo]

Would say hands down Massa. Not gonna lie, i never really understood how he got the Ferrari seat after the Sauber years.

[LORDBYRON]

I cant vote for my driver. Other would be a good option  

Edited by LORDBYRON, 21 March 2015 - 19:52.

[Nemo1965]

Weird poll... Why 7 years? Why not 5? or 10?

 

Because in my old head an average F1 career lasts seven years or seven seasons. But for the rest: it is arbitrary, especially because we now have 19 races per seasons. Perhaps I should have done fifty Grand Prix. Then again, if I watch the list of the other drivers: I think they all need and deserve more time to prove themselves.

 

Lord Byron: Maldonado? In what effing way has HE improved?

Edited by Nemo1965, 21 March 2015 - 19:53.

[Lights]

Massa. He's lucky his F1 career lasted more than one season, which is all some people get.

 

The Hamilton votes, what? 

[Seanspeed]

Hamilton. Yes, he was quick from the off, but he was making a lot of mistakes which he ironed out throughout the years. I don't remember the beginnings of Massa and Button's careers so can't judge them.

2007 was an incredibly consistent season from Lewis. In fact, I think he's always been one of the more consistent and error free drivers, and its because of that that when he does make mistakes, they seem more noticeable. His most error prone season was 2011 so I'm not really sure where his improvement is at all. I still consider 2007 to be one of, if not the best season he's had. He really seems like the least qualified entrant in this poll. And that's not really a criticism.

[ClubmanGT]

At least seven years? Doesn't sound like a convenient arbitrary number just to legitimise the inclusion of a certain British driver who debuted in 2007? 

 

E: I'm going to say Alonso, actually. Started from nowhere. Climbed the ladder. Became a 2x WDC and is acknowledged as the best on the grid. If not him, then Raikkonen. 

 

If you weren't British then you wouldn't have noticed the years of unwarranted Jenson hype which he has only recently started to live up to. It made watching F1 a very grating experience. 

Edited by ClubmanGT, 21 March 2015 - 20:38.

[Seanspeed]

At least seven years? Doesn't sound like a convenient arbitrary number just to legitimise the inclusion of a certain British driver who debuted in 2007?

E: I'm going to say Alonso, actually. Started from nowhere. Climbed the ladder. Became a 2x WDC and is acknowledged as the best on the grid. If not him, then Raikkonen.

If you weren't British then you wouldn't have noticed the years of unwarranted Jenson hype which he has only recently started to live up to. It made watching F1 a very grating experience.

Vettel debuted in 07 as well.

[sopa]

I voted Sebastian Vettel. When he started out, he was nowhere near Heidfeld and could not outqualify Liuzzi. The only times, when he was convincingly ahead of Liuzzi, were the two wet races in late 2007. I think Vettel's improvement has been significant since then, considering Liuzzi was not all that talented and was later beaten by Sutil.

 

Button however adapted to F1 quicker. He outqualified Ralf Schumacher in two of the first four race weekends. Though finished behind Ralf in both Brazil and UK race, was very close to him.

 

Massa I remember crashed a lot, but his speed was decent from the get-go. Scored points already in his second race in Malaysia, and added a further fifth in Spain. Plus outqualified Heidfeld a fair amount of times.

 

Now that's a close call. And Vettel was handicapped by getting thrown in mid-season with lesser testing. Sure enough, they all have improved since then. But feel Vettel needs to be highlighted since he hasn't been mentioned here so far.

 

---

 

Actually, should not forget Rosberg either. Though he started out fantastically well (FL in Bahrain and 3rd on the grid in Malaysia), was beaten pretty convincingly by Webber that year overall. I remember his 2007 looked a huge improvement over 2006, especially in terms of consistency.

 

Raikkonen obviously has improved a little bit, since he was narrowly beaten by Heidfeld.

Alonso's and Hamilton's improvement is harder to quantify. Hamilton matched the star driver on his debut season - can you do much/any better than that? And Alonso had rubbish team-mate(s), while he seemed to be punching above his weight in that Minardi anyway by qualifying 17th-19th pretty often.

[rasul]

I voted Sebastian Vettel. When he started out, he was nowhere near Heidfeld and could not outqualify Liuzzi. The only times, when he was convincingly ahead of Liuzzi, were the two wet races in late 2007. I think Vettel's improvement has been significant since then, considering Liuzzi was not all that talented and was later beaten by Sutil.

 

Button however adapted to F1 quicker. He outqualified Ralf Schumacher in two of the first four race weekends. Though finished behind Ralf in both Brazil and UK race, was very close to him.

 

Massa I remember crashed a lot, but his speed was decent from the get-go. Scored points already in his second race in Malaysia, and added a further fifth in Spain. Plus outqualified Heidfeld a fair amount of times.

 

Now that's a close call. And Vettel was handicapped by getting thrown in mid-season with lesser testing. Sure enough, they all have improved since then. But feel Vettel needs to be highlighted since he hasn't been mentioned here so far.

That's why even comparing his results with active racing drivers who had come to know the car much better than him over the first half of the season is not very correct. If I remember correctly, BMW let Vettel go to STR because they couldn't give him Vettel enough testing time. Having a first GP in the car mid-season is a big handicap for any racing driver, much less for newbies. 

The same story happened with Ricciardo, actually. He couldn't outqualify Liuzzi in the first 4 GPs because he was thrown in the car mid-season, just like Vettel. A first full season is a better indicator of the drivers' relative performance, IMO.

That said, I did vote for Vettel too. I remember him crashing a lot in the first races of 2008. People called him "fast, but a crash kid."  It's been a long time since Vettel crashed out -- I've seen somewhere that the Australian GP was his 90th race without retiring for an accident, an all-time record. 

[Nemo1965]

At least seven years? Doesn't sound like a convenient arbitrary number just to legitimise the inclusion of a certain British driver who debuted in 2007?

E: I'm going to say Alonso, actually. Started from nowhere. Climbed the ladder. Became a 2x WDC and is acknowledged as the best on the grid. If not him, then Raikkonen.

If you weren't British then you wouldn't have noticed the years of unwarranted Jenson hype which he has only recently started to live up to. It made watching F1 a very grating experience.

Hahaha! The first time I am accused of being a Hamilton fanboy... And as you could read: I voted Button. Other posters: you make some strong cases!

Edited by Nemo1965, 21 March 2015 - 22:53.

[prty]

Hamilton. Yes, he was quick from the off, but he was making a lot of mistakes which he ironed out throughout the years. I don't remember the beginnings of Massa and Button's careers so can't judge them.

Actually his first season was the most composed one.

[Ar558]

I voted for Massa. He was awful at Sauber, quick but so accident and spin happy, Now he is an elder statesmen who is composed and reliable,

[sennafan24]

I don't agree with the Massa choice. I feel he has always been a reasonable F1 driver. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

There are a few opinions that follow Massa around that I believe to be incorrect.

 

For starters, I think Massa's performances in 2007-2009 were a tad smoke and mirrors. I believe they were more a reflection of Kimi's struggles to adapt  and the understated quality of the Ferrari cars in 07/08, rather than Massa's ability. Massa has not shown the ability of a top driver outside of these years. Whilst we know from 2014 that Kimi can be very precarious when not performing in his sweet spot. Hence why I think the latter is the stronger variable. 

 

Secondly, people forget that Massa was closer to Alonso in 2010 than any other year whilst they were teammates. Indeed, as the years went on, Alonso continued to pull out a gap over Massa. We can speculate as to why this was (inter-team politics/confidence etc), but judging on what we can visibly measure on track, there is little sign of Massa improving in recent years. I would suggest the more Alonso got used to the Ferrari car, the more he could pull out a gap over Massa. 

 

Massa was very unlucky last year. But on track, he did no better against Bottas than Pastor managed. In fact, Pastor beat Bottas at a higher rate of race weekends than Massa could manage. Masa probably has become less reckless over the years, but the same could be said of Seb and to a lesser extent Lewis (think race trim)

 

Button and Nico are my picks. They stand out the most. If I had a gun to my head, I would go with Jenson.

Edited by sennafan24, 22 March 2015 - 00:22.

[ToxicEnviroment]

Button for sure. He looked below average, mediocre in 2000, 2001

 

Who could tell that he would be WDC back then.

 

It was even unsure wether he will even win a race durin his carrer.

 

Junquiera looked so much better in those days. And it was never clear to me why Frank Williams took Button over him.

[Myrvold]

For starters, I think Massa's performances in 2007-2009 were a tad smoke and mirrors. I believe they were more a reflection of Kimi's struggles to adapt  and the understated quality of the Ferrari cars in 07/08, rather than Massa's ability. Massa has not shown the ability of a top driver outside of these years.

 

Which incidentally makes the Ferrari look superior to McLaren, and thus making the effort from Alonso and Hamilton look way better.

[sennafan24]

Which incidentally makes the Ferrari look superior to McLaren, and thus making the effort from Alonso and Hamilton look way better.

 

You want to read that into my post, then fine. Go nuts.

[Juan Kerr]

Nigel Mansell

[RubberKubrick]

Button for sure. He looked below average, mediocre in 2000, 2001

Who could tell that he would be WDC back then.

It was even unsure wether he will even win a race durin his carrer.

Junquiera looked so much better in those days. And it was never clear to me why Frank Williams took Button over him.

What surprised me even more than the WDC (which was already incredibly surprising) was that, considering Hamilton could achieve 10 wins while he was teammates with Button, how Button could achieve only two wins less during their mutual McLaren period from 2010-2012.

[SpeedRacer`]

If you can include past drivers, I'd go with Pedro Diniz. Really slow to begin with, scored a point at Spain when everyone else was spinning off and crashing. Then in later years was pretty equal to (a slightly over the hill) Alesi

[Jimisgod]

Massa, although Grosjean has improved massively over what he was in 2009. Historically, Mansell.

[George Costanza]

Of all time? Nigel Mansell?

[aramos]

Button for sure. The guy came in as just another British hopeful with no huge pedigree and he has established himself as one of the best all round drivers

[aramos]

I voted Sebastian Vettel. When he started out, he was nowhere near Heidfeld and could not outqualify Liuzzi. The only times, when he was convincingly ahead of Liuzzi, were the two wet races in late 2007. I think Vettel's improvement has been significant since then, considering Liuzzi was not all that talented and was later beaten by Sutil.

 

Well to be fair, the only driver he has really shown to be superior to is Webber. Daniel Ricciardo was convincingly faster than him and how will we know which Kimi Raikkonen decides to show up this year, the one that can shade a very good driver like Grosjean or the one that loses to Alonso by over 100 points despite better reliability.

 

It will be interesting to see his coming seasons, as he will no doubt face a variety of drivers when Raikkonen retires.

Edited by aramos, 22 March 2015 - 05:23.

[RubberKubrick]

Well to be fair, the only driver he has really shown to be superior to is Webber. Daniel Ricciardo was convincingly faster than him and how will we know which Kimi Raikkonen decides to show up this year, the one that can shade a very good driver like Grosjean or the one that loses to Alonso by over 100 points despite better reliability.

It will be interesting to see his coming seasons, as he will no doubt face a variety of drivers when Raikkonen retires.

It depends. Or he will face another "Webber" for five years (like he did from 2009-2013) in the person of Bottas who, by some people here, is not considered that good.

[teejay]

Definitely Lewis 

 

He fluked his way into a fast car in 2007 and 8 according to most didnt he?

 

[Nemo1965]

Of all time? Nigel Mansell?

 

Of all time, in my eyes, there is no conquest: Niki Lauda. Especially in open wheelers. He was immediately good in mountainclimbs in a Mini, good in touring-cars, but for the rest.. Very mediocre record in Formule V, Formula 3, a little better in F2... first F1-year in 1972 in retrospect he looked like the Viennese Yuji Ide... Yes, the March was awful that year, but come on! And if you read his autobiography Protocoll he makes no excuses. First year in a winning F1 car - in 1974 - he just ****ed up totally. He was beaten by Watson in 1982 and 1983 after his come-back, then pulled himself by his bootstraps - with adapting a more aggressive style of overtaking and defending - to beat Prost in 1984.

 

But let me not derail my own thread and return to the current drivers: regarding Hamilton, I agree in a way. He re-improved himself. In 2007 he was great, 2008 was... so-so. 2011 was horrible. 2012, 2013, 2014 he has become better and better. He has really worked on his weak points (overtaking or not-overtaking in clutch-situations, temporisizing).

Edited by Nemo1965, 22 March 2015 - 09:06.

[aramos]

It depends. Or he will face another "Webber" for five years (like he did from 2009-2013) in the person of Bottas who, by some people here, is not considered that good.

 

Well, many people think he got an easy win this year facing Raikkonen at Ferrari. When in most other seats he'd be against a driver like Alonso, Hamilton or Ricciardo.

 

Bottas isn't an absolute top tier driver but he's very good, if Seb can comfortably beat him he'll be doing well.

[Lotus53B]

I've voted for Button - when he arrived he definitely was enjoying being an F1 driver too much, but he's become a very good, reliable driver - but you could make a case for most of the ones on the list.  You may have to consider their careers before F1 - obviously they all had some success lower formulas, but some were clearly in a different league (there's a video somewhere of Button aged 9 in a cart race, and when he wins the commentator comments on his "smooth and relaxed" style - some things never change)

[ViMaMo]

None of the above. 

[RubberKubrick]

Well, many people think he got an easy win this year facing Raikkonen at Ferrari. When in most other seats he'd be against a driver like Alonso, Hamilton or Ricciardo.

 

Bottas isn't an absolute top tier driver but he's very good, if Seb can comfortably beat him he'll be doing well.

 

Regarding Bottas: until now, I don't know how he could be better than Kovalainen (when both were new in F1).

 

Bottas had beaten Massa or Maldonado not more convincingly than Kovalainen had beaten Fisichella when he began to race in F1 (and Fisichella 2007 was certainly not worse a driver than Massa 2014 or Maldonado 2013).

 

Then came Hamilton...

 

I wonder how Bottas would look like against someone like Hamilton.

 

Someone mentioned Lauda: yeah, he was quite not that convincing in 1972/1973 before raising his level from 1974 onwards.

 

Could someone mention Rindt as well at the beginning of his F1 career? Wasn't he properly beaten by Bruce McLaren and then by Surtees before succeeding against Brabham and GHill who, however, were 16 or 13 years older than Rindt?

[FerrariV12]

Of all time? Nigel Mansell?

 

Niki Lauda by a mile if we're going retro - who would have guessed in '71 and '72 he'd become an all-time great.

 

EDIT: Beaten to it 

Edited by FerrariV12, 22 March 2015 - 12:54.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

Definitely Lewis 

 

He fluked his way into a fast car in 2007 and 8 according to most didnt he?

 

The operative word is "improved". Hamilton was freaking good from day one, That is pretty hard to dispute. But when you attempt to see how much he has improved, it is not as great as others.

 

"Improve" is a relative term, and it has to compare the start of a driver's career to the state he is in now. Some got a heck of a lot better over the years.

[MikeV1987]

Most might not agree but I would say Vettel out of that list tbh. He always had speed but his skill at wheel to wheel racing was questionable at the start of his career, now he is one of the better racers.

Edited by MikeV1987, 22 March 2015 - 14:20.

[Ar558]

Vettel is really hard to judge as he is the only one who hasn't been up a against team mate who could give a test of how good he is. Massa had MSC, Raikkonen, Alonso. Alonso has had Hamilton,Raikkonen, Hamilton has had Alonso and Button. Raikkonen has had Alonso and Massa. Button has had Hamilton and Rosberg MSC and Hamilton. Who has Vettel had? Webber and Ricciardo? Good drivers but not champions (Ricciardo maybe in the future). I still feel Vettel is a bit of a fraud who was massively flattered by Newey's dominant  designs. Last year he was destroyed by Ricciardo who has relatively little experience. That happened to Massa and Raikkonen but that was against Alonso who is generally regarded as the best (along with Hamilton) of this era. Whether Kimi at this stage is really a far comparison I dont know but if we get Kimi from 12 and 13 then it could be.

[redreni]

Surprised so many have voted for Button. I thought he was quick and pretty consistent from the beginning of his career.

 

I voted Massa, not so much because he's the best of this bunch, but because he had the most room for improvement when he came into the sport. And I think in the years he spent alongside Schumacher he changed and improved so much that he literally went from hopeless case to regular race winner and WDC contender. I think if you look at the drivers on that list, I remember all their debut seasons, and Massa's definitely the last one I would have expected to make the kind of progress he did.

[alframsey]

Definitely Button! Not doubt about it:

[Nemo1965]

Surprised so many have voted for Button. I thought he was quick and pretty consistent from the beginning of his career.

 

I voted Massa, not so much because he's the best of this bunch, but because he had the most room for improvement when he came into the sport. And I think in the years he spent alongside Schumacher he changed and improved so much that he literally went from hopeless case to regular race winner and WDC contender. I think if you look at the drivers on that list, I remember all their debut seasons, and Massa's definitely the last one I would have expected to make the kind of progress he did.

 

Well, like I said: perception muddles up the analysis. The nice thing about this thread is that some posters are much better than I in the explaining of their choice! As you are!

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Michael Schumacher MK2.

[Scuderia312]

2007 was an incredibly consistent season from Lewis. In fact, I think he's always been one of the more consistent and error free drivers, and its because of that that when he does make mistakes, they seem more noticeable. His most error prone season was 2011 so I'm not really sure where his improvement is at all. I still consider 2007 to be one of, if not the best season he's had. He really seems like the least qualified entrant in this poll. And that's not really a criticism.

Yes, you are absolutely right, 2007 was fantastic from him. Completely forgot about that and started thinking since 2008. Then I think Button is the most improved driver.

[Nemo1965]

I am alone in thinking that for Lewis 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011 (def!) were less than his debut-year 2007? And that, in my view, 2012, 2013 and 2014 were better than his debut-year?

[sennafan24]

I am alone in thinking that for Lewis 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011 (def!) were less than his debut-year 2007? And that, in my view, 2012, 2013 and 2014 were better than his debut-year?

I mostly agree

 

Other than I rate 2010 on the same level as 2007. Maybe even slightly above. Also, 2013 was his 2nd worst year. I would not rate it above any of his campaigns from 2007-2010

Edited by sennafan24, 22 March 2015 - 15:27.

[anneomoly]

Vettel is really hard to judge as he is the only one who hasn't been up a against team mate who could give a test of how good he is. Massa had MSC, Raikkonen, Alonso. Alonso has had Hamilton,Raikkonen, Hamilton has had Alonso and Button. Raikkonen has had Alonso and Massa. Button has had Hamilton and Rosberg MSC and Hamilton. Who has Vettel had? Webber and Ricciardo? Good drivers but not champions (Ricciardo maybe in the future). I still feel Vettel is a bit of a fraud who was massively flattered by Newey's dominant  designs. Last year he was destroyed by Ricciardo who has relatively little experience. That happened to Massa and Raikkonen but that was against Alonso who is generally regarded as the best (along with Hamilton) of this era. Whether Kimi at this stage is really a far comparison I dont know but if we get Kimi from 12 and 13 then it could be.

 

But it's not a question of how good, but how much improved. And with that, if you're going to use teammates then Vettel's the easiest of all. He had the same guy opposite for 5 entire seasons, with a points difference of 14 points in 2010 and 198 points in 2013 (2009 was old points system). So you could argue that Vettel improved by a margin of 184 points in those years...

 

Because, I'm not sure how good any driver is in absolute terms has much to do with how much they've improved. Which for me is why Hamilton's absolutely last on this list - not because he's not good, but I'm not entirely sure it's possible to improve on a rookie season where you successfully match Fernando Alonso, cope with McLaren politics, and nearly win the world championship. And Vettel's nearer the top of the list (with Rosberg and Button) because I couldn't imagine him losing control, crashing behind the safety car and wiping out another driver, but in 2007 he did. And his racecraft has improved beyond measure, which you can't say about Hamilton because Lewis has been brilliant from day 1. Vettel might have unjustly overtaken his teammate in 2013 and whined like a baby against Alonso in 2014, but he didn't wipe either of them out, and I think a 2007 Vettel might well have done.