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Did the refueling ban ruin the sport?


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Poll: Refuelling (291 member(s) have cast votes)

Did the refueling ban ruin the sport?

  1. Yes (65 votes [22.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.34%

  2. No (226 votes [77.66%])

    Percentage of vote: 77.66%

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#1 Okyo

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:11

Me and a few of my mates been talking about the sport, about what went went wrong in the past years and we constantly came back to the same conclusion:
refueling ban.

Cheese tires, KERS, DRS. All of these were introduce so the races would be more exciting, giving the advantage/helping hand to the car behind to make an overtake, or add some kind of a tactical field for the team strategists, creating a difference in pace by going with a different tire compound. All of these 'artificial' tools are trying to emulate the pace differences that we already had when refueling was allowed. A slower car, that's behind in pace over half a sec or even more could manage to overtake a faster one in qualifying and in race by having less fuel. Teams could play with fuel loads tactically, going lighter or heavier, depending on the scenario, and in the end creating pace differences and overtakes. It seemed way more natural than pressing a button on the steering wheel to gain speed. Remember the 2010 season? I dear say, was the most boring season of the past few decades. First year after the refueling ban which called for the introduction of DRS and Pirelli tires. 

I also miss the element, when we waited after the qualifying for data, calculations, of how much fuel the drivers had onboard.

I get why some may call it a good decision. It made the sport safer and it saves money. But at what cost? Way more money has gone down the drain trying to make a technical reshuffle, so the sport becomes exciting yet again. Couldn't they've tried to improve the refueling gear, try to make it safer? Maybe someone has more information on why the ban was introduced?

What's your take on this people?


Edited by Okyo, 24 March 2015 - 12:14.


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#2 Skaffen

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:15

Some of the most processional races and championships I have seen were under the refuelling regulations. In the end all the teams developed fairly optimal strategies for races so there was minimum you could realistically change with refuelling other than some marginal swings or if there was a safety car.

#3 Nemo1965

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:17

What he said.



#4 Jon83

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:18

No, we've had some great seasons since (2010, 2012 and to some degree 2014)



#5 Okyo

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:20

No, we've had some great seasons since (2010, 2012 and to some degree 2014)

Well, i'm not talking about the drama factor. Yeah, we had some last race deciders, but for example, 2010 was horrific from a racing stand point. Fernando in Abu Dhabi comes in to mind.



#6 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:22

2010 was fantastic for F1. They had more overtakes in that year than any in the refuelling era.



#7 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:23

I'm old enough to remember the introduction of refuelling during the race in the Summer of 1982.

And I am also old enough to remember that before that introduction we had great racing, despite the lack of refuelling.

 

It's not the refuelling that makes the races less entertaining, it is the current kind of car, with it speeds it is capable of thanks to the tremendous improvements in weight distribution, suspension technology and aero and everything else that is so much better then it was back then.

But because all of that the racing itself became much worse over time.

 

 

But the current genertion of fans appear to be far more speed obsessed and in need for seeing high speed processions, artificially enhanced to create some spectacle.

 

 

Henri

 


Edited by Henri Greuter, 24 March 2015 - 12:23.


#8 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:23

but where the 2010 changes to help overtaking just the refuelling ban or were there other ones? :)



#9 Jon83

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:26

Well, i'm not talking about the drama factor. Yeah, we had some last race deciders, but for example, 2010 was horrific from a racing stand point. Fernando in Abu Dhabi comes in to mind.

 

Sure, but I guess to some degree they have done something to fix it (DRS, degrading tyres etc) rightly or wrongly. 

 

During the refuelling era, I remember most races being pretty processional. I don't feel feel that scrapping it ruined the sport. 



#10 Kobasmashi

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:27

Anyone who thinks the racing was more exciting before 2010 didn't watch F1 before 2010. 2009 was utterly dreadful in terms of on track action.

#11 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:33

It didn't help.  Seems to have made the cars a lot, lot slower in the race.  Lots of focus on fuel saving...



#12 ninetyzero

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:33

No. Refuelling ruins on-track action.



#13 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:34

It's not the refuelling that makes the races less entertaining, it is the current kind of car, with it speeds it is capable of thanks to the tremendous improvements in weight distribution, suspension technology and aero and everything else that is so much better then it was back then.

But because all of that the racing itself became much worse over time.

 

 

 

The cars, at Albert Park, for example are doing the same lap times they did 15 years ago.  The current F1 cars have gone far backwards in terms of lap pace.



#14 DaddyCool

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:37

2010 was fantastic for F1. They had more overtakes in that year than any in the refuelling era.

 

The 2010 championship battle was a nailbiter, but I dont recall any noticeable increase in on-track action compared to the previous years.

 

F1 rules changed dramatically since the refueling ban, so you cant single it out and say the racing was better. What I would say is that  2-3 sprint stints between refueling stops were not really worse than the equipment saving what we have today.

 

The best would be to keep the refueling ban but lift the fuel/tyre/PU/gearbox restrictions.



#15 Okyo

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:40

No. Refuelling ruins on-track action.

I get the arguments some are stating and they, i admit, did change my mind on this matter. But did refuelling ruin on-tract action? I really doubt it. the ban was just another equalizer for the grid, making the cars even more similar paced. Also, we no longer have the tactical play, when let's say a driver decides to change his strategy, be it after a broken front wing or whatever. He'd fill the tank with more fuel, being able to stay out longer, when the rivals come back to track after refueling, he'd have a big pace advantage as he's lighter.

Of course, this is not a so often scenario that would influence the usual race.


Edited by Okyo, 24 March 2015 - 12:42.


#16 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:40

Lets not forget it was dangerous too.



#17 Nemo1965

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:42

You know, what applies to F1, applies to soccer-matches, tennis-matches, and even Monty Python: if you watch the COMPLETE re-runs, you know it was not all so fantastic as it seemed in your memory. Many, may races were complete snooze-feasts from the 1950's to today. It  was dangerous in the early years, which kept the attention high... but it was always like looking for pearls in oysters... you find a lot of soft tissue in the clams but precious little round hard gems... Was Monaco 1982 a great race? Well, the ending was. Monaco 1981 WAS a great race... Jarama 1981 WAS a great race... but those were exceptions. It are the little drama's hidden in the endless vrooooooms-vrooomss- vroooooms in Döpler-effect.

 

I enjoyed the 2014 season more than ANY season in F1, and I've been watching since the early seventies... the races between Hamilton and Rosberg were often tension-filled, a lot of good battles behind them...  I myself would get rid of the mandatory tyre-change, but I am a loner in that...



#18 JHSingo

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:45

Pahahahaha.

 

No.



#19 ninetyzero

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:45

I get the arguments some are stating and they, i admit, did change my mind on this matter. But did refuelling ruin on-tract action? I really doubt it. the ban was just another equalizer for the grid, making the cars even more similar paced. Also, we no longer have the tactical play, when let's say a driver decides to change his strategy, be it after a broken front wing or whatever. He'd fill the tank with more fuel, being able to stay out longer, when the rivals come back to track after refueling, he'd have a big pace advantage as he's lighter.

Of course, this is not a so often scenario that would influence the usual race.

 

But that's the point though isn't it? It was always pit lane tactics, there was no reason to bother trying to overtake on track because it could be done in the pits with less risk.



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#20 Sash1

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:47

Overpriced seats and tv packages, limited access to drivers and teams for average Joe and in general milking fans like they are a bunch of stupid cows kill F1.



#21 superden

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:47

Pahahahaha.

No.


No indeed.

#22 Lights

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:48

Oh dear, of course not. Some seasons with refueling were terribly boring. People are way too critical these days. 



#23 Kobasmashi

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:48

I get the arguments some are stating and they, i admit, did change my mind on this matter. But did refuelling ruin on-tract action? I really doubt it. the ban was just another equalizer for the grid, making the cars even more similar paced. Also, we no longer have the tactical play, when let's say a driver decides to change his strategy, be it after a broken front wing or whatever. He'd fill the tank with more fuel, being able to stay out longer, when the rivals come back to track after refueling, he'd have a big pace advantage as he's lighter.


For fuelling the car heavy see fitting the prime tyre.

#24 Okyo

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:49

But that's the point though isn't it? It was always pit lane tactics, there was no reason to bother trying to overtake on track because it could be done in the pits with less risk.

It's an odd situation, isn't it? It may put you in a position where you're made to overtake, but it made it harder to do so. Also, there's the tires. Though you don't need to pit for fuel, you still have to pit for tires, which can be looked at as the same scape goat as the refueling was in overtaking someone.



#25 RealRacing

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:54

Me and a few of my mates been talking about the sport, about what went went wrong in the past years and we constantly came back to the same conclusion:
refueling ban.

Cheese tires, KERS, DRS. All of these were introduce so the races would be more exciting, giving the advantage/helping hand to the car behind to make an overtake, or add some kind of a tactical field for the team strategists, creating a difference in pace by going with a different tire compound. All of these 'artificial' [/size]tools are trying to emulate the pace differences that we already had when refueling was allowed. A slower car, that's behind in pace over half a sec or even more could manage to overtake a faster one in qualifying and in race by having less fuel. Teams could play with fuel loads tactically, going lighter or heavier, depending on the scenario, and in the end creating pace differences and overtakes. It seemed way more natural than pressing a button on the steering wheel to gain speed. Remember the 2010 season? I dear say, was the most boring season of the past few decades. First year after the refueling ban which called for the introduction of DRS and Pirelli tires. 

I also miss the element, when we waited after the qualifying for data, calculations, of how much fuel the drivers had onboard.

I get why some may call it a good decision. It made the sport safer and it saves money. But at what cost? Way more money has gone down the drain trying to make a technical reshuffle, so the sport becomes exciting yet again. Couldn't they've tried to improve the refueling gear, try to make it safer? Maybe someone has more information on why the ban was introduced?

What's your take on this people?

 



#26 Kristian

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:55

If refuelling came back, everyone would moan about drivers saying "I'll wait for the stops" rather than going for the overtake. 



#27 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 12:57

I could have passed him earlier but that would have meant having to overtake him on the track so we did an extra pitstop instead. 

 

 

 

Freely remembered quote from a world champion given after a race in the refuelling era. 

 

No, the refuelling ban did not ruin anything with F1. 

 

There are problems with the current F1. Some of them potentially disastrous. 

 

But banning refuelling isn't one of them. 

 

It's not on track action that is a problem in F1 as such. Just as 30 years ago or 20 years ago or 10 years ago there are good races, bad races, terrible races and fantastic races. 



#28 Paco

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:01

Only thing I don't miss about refuelling was the race play by play and they constantly complaining they don't know fuel levels and is someone short fueled in qualifying etc. it got to the point of ridiculous even though I liked the unknown element and different qualifying strategies...

Refuelling made drivers drive all out every lap which I like more then current conservative saving tires, saving fuel approach.

#29 RedBaron

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:01

I did love the days of refuelling. Splash and dash at the end of the race, fuelling less to get out ahead, switching to a 3 stopper or a 1 stopper etc mid race, not just for tyres.  

 

Strategy counted and it was awesome.

 

Hungary 1998



#30 Knowlesy

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:02

The refuelling era was the worst by far.



#31 MirNyet

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:14

Overly restrictive rules are ruining the sport - locking the regulations down to the point where you have to spend tens of millions to find a tenth of a second has locked out the ability of most of the grid to be competitive. Rules laid down in the name of 'cost cutting' have closed down clever ideas - themselves usually low cost, or frozen the ability of teams or engine makers to be competitive baking in the advantage of those who can throw hundreds of millions at something making the other teams lose money due to not being able to score points - thus forcing them to be even more uncompetitive the next year.

 

To pull the sport back from the hole its in, the rules need to be massively relaxed, cost cutting needs to be just that (how much for an entry fee, how much for a super license?) - and the rights holder needs to be pumping more of the profit into the teams. A budget cap is a must - but it needs to be a real world number so that the teams can push the boundaries but not a number so high that littler teams cannot compete.



#32 Tourgott

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:16

F1 was ruined by other things but I actually liked the refueling era more. That's why I voted yes.

I loved the strategic part of F1 and it was so satisfying when a good strategy came together for a driver at the end. I choose this over these DRS/tyre saving fake overtakes we have today.


Edited by Tourgott, 24 March 2015 - 13:18.


#33 RealRacing

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:16

Me and a few of my mates been talking about the sport, about what went went wrong in the past years and we constantly came back to the same conclusion:
refueling ban.

Cheese tires, KERS, DRS. All of these were introduce so the races would be more exciting, giving the advantage/helping hand to the car behind to make an overtake, or add some kind of a tactical field for the team strategists, creating a difference in pace by going with a different tire compound. All of these 'artificial' [/size]tools are trying to emulate the pace differences that we already had when refueling was allowed. A slower car, that's behind in pace over half a sec or even more could manage to overtake a faster one in qualifying and in race by having less fuel. Teams could play with fuel loads tactically, going lighter or heavier, depending on the scenario, and in the end creating pace differences and overtakes. It seemed way more natural than pressing a button on the steering wheel to gain speed. Remember the 2010 season? I dear say, was the most boring season of the past few decades. First year after the refueling ban which called for the introduction of DRS and Pirelli tires. 

I also miss the element, when we waited after the qualifying for data, calculations, of how much fuel the drivers had onboard.

I get why some may call it a good decision. It made the sport safer and it saves money. But at what cost? Way more money has gone down the drain trying to make a technical reshuffle, so the sport becomes exciting yet again. Couldn't they've tried to improve the refueling gear, try to make it safer? Maybe someone has more information on why the ban was introduced?

What's your take on this people?

Ok, I think the poll results speak for themselves. I'll go point by point.

 

First of all, I think it's important to understand that, if you want better racing, pace difference is something you want to avoid. i.e., the more equal the cars are in terms of speed (so also weight and tyre degradation), the higher the possibility of having close racing. What is the fun or the merit in having a car with much less weight or newer tyres pass a heavier one or one with older tyres? With no refueling at least they all have more or less the same weight (depending of course on fuel efficiency but roughly). With refueling they had weight difference and compound difference (except in that one year where they could only use one compound for the whole race, which is, IMO, something that would equalize the field even more without refueling). To sum up, no refueling, one less variable, more equal cars, higher probability of closer racing on track. 

 

The elements you mention, DRS, tyres and Kers (Kers not so much as it was also introduced to explore energy harvesting technology), were band-aid solutions to the main problem that F1 has been unwilling or unable to address: too much aero turbulence behind the leading car made following close, and therefore overtaking, too difficult if not impossible. A change of rules was put in place to address that in 2009, they found a loophole that could not be banned immediately (double diffusers) and they stopped trying to fix the main problem, instead introducing these gizmos you mention. As much as I hate DRS and cheese tyres, I prefer an on track pass with DRS than a pass in the pits, which were the norm in the refueling era. So, to summarize, gizmos were not a result of the refueling ban but the inability/unwillingness to control aero turbulence.

 

Refueling was not banned because it was too expensive or dangerous mainly, it was banned to improve the racing! The problem was that it was not accompanied by other measures or these measures weren't implemented properly and F1's stakeholders have since gone down a path of patch-solutions, rule reshuffles and IMO the wrong racing paradigm, that have thrown the sport into the difficult corner it finds itself in nowadays. 



#34 Risil

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:17

I miss the days of fragile Pirellis in 2011-2012 when the running order felt unfixed. And the tyre wars in 2001-2006 when the competitive balance could change very quickly. And the single tyre rule in 2005. And how in the late 90s they'd run in appallingly wet conditions. And the evil handling of almost every car in 1994-95.

 

Whatever's different to the present. I don't miss the present.


Edited by Risil, 24 March 2015 - 13:17.


#35 Turbo1

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:20

Me and a few of my mates been talking about the sport, about what went went wrong in the past years and we constantly came back to the same conclusion:
refueling ban.

Cheese tires, KERS, DRS. All of these were introduce so the races would be more exciting, giving the advantage/helping hand to the car behind to make an overtake, or add some kind of a tactical field for the team strategists, creating a difference in pace by going with a different tire compound. All of these 'artificial' tools are trying to emulate the pace differences that we already had when refueling was allowed. A slower car, that's behind in pace over half a sec or even more could manage to overtake a faster one in qualifying and in race by having less fuel. Teams could play with fuel loads tactically, going lighter or heavier, depending on the scenario, and in the end creating pace differences and overtakes. It seemed way more natural than pressing a button on the steering wheel to gain speed. Remember the 2010 season? I dear say, was the most boring season of the past few decades. First year after the refueling ban which called for the introduction of DRS and Pirelli tires. 

I also miss the element, when we waited after the qualifying for data, calculations, of how much fuel the drivers had onboard.

I get why some may call it a good decision. It made the sport safer and it saves money. But at what cost? Way more money has gone down the drain trying to make a technical reshuffle, so the sport becomes exciting yet again. Couldn't they've tried to improve the refueling gear, try to make it safer? Maybe someone has more information on why the ban was introduced?

What's your take on this people?

 

You are talking fantasy. There was no overtaking in the refueling era, as it was impossible that's why the focus was all about pit stop strategy and staying out longer with more fuel than your rivals. The refueling era had literally no on track overtaking between competitive cars, which is why they introduced DRS. The fueling has nothing to do with the issues with the sport which mainly revolve around one dominant team too often.



#36 Elba

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:27

Remember the 2010 season? I dear say, was the most boring season of the past few decades. 

Firstly F1 isn't ruined imo and secondly refueling isn't a deciding factor in whether we have interesting or boring races.

So voted NO

 

As to 2010 huh? :rolleyes:  



#37 DaddyCool

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:27

One thing is for sure, when it comes to strategic battles, I would take France 2004 or Hungary 1998 over ANY of these who-can-save-Pirellis better bullshit.



#38 Knot

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:28

Refueling ban hasn't hurt the sport as much as all the other nonsense has...but it hasn't helped anything.

 

Refueling ban.

Kers.

DRS.

Hybrid power.

just to name a few

 

Everything FIA has done under Todt has been a complete failure, proof of this are the 70 millions of fans who have tuned out in the last 4 years alone.



#39 DaddyCool

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:31

Oh and btw guise

 

 

 

I could have passed him earlier but that would have meant having to overtake him on the track so we did an extra pitstop instead. 

 

I could have passed him earlier but that would have meant having to overtake him on the track so we undercut him with fresh tyre advantage during the first pitstop instead.


Edited by DaddyCool, 24 March 2015 - 13:32.


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#40 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:37

Oh and btw guise

 

 

I could have passed him earlier but that would have meant having to overtake him on the track so we undercut him with fresh tyre advantage during the first pitstop instead.

 

 

Actually 

 

 

 

We might have won on a normal three stop, but this would have involved passing cars on the track. 


#41 Lotus53B

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:38

Martin Brundle used to constantly moan about the ban in refueling - "the cars are sprinters, not endurance machines - F1 is about being as fast as possible, not managing fuel..."

 

That's one of many things I disagree with him about.  Refuelling did restrict on track action - you'd always plan to save the time in the fuel stops...which nearly led - in my opinion - to Jos Verstappen being turned into Crispy Fried Jos...

Okay, that's an extreme event, which only occured once (and way back in the day I remember bloody great open churns of fuel hanging around the pit lane, I'm surprised that there weren't constant fires*), but even so, I think anything that makes things happen on track, not in pit, is for the better.

 

*After I found that the airhorns fans use are powered by butane I'm constantly surprised that the stands at Monza don't vanish in a ball of flame everytime a Ferrari goes past.



#42 RealRacing

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:40

Refueling ban hasn't hurt the sport as much as all the other nonsense has...but it hasn't helped anything.

 

Refueling ban.

Kers.

DRS.

Hybrid power.

just to name a few

 

Everything FIA has done under Todt has been a complete failure, proof of this are the 70 millions of fans who have tuned out in the last 4 years alone.

You got it wrong there mate, DRS was a reaction to the inability to enforce the 2009 rule changes which were supposed to make overtaking possible again (by reducing aero turbulence among others).

And hybrid power, although I agree with the current fuel restriction is damaging the sport, is not per-se the cause of bad races.

 

The elimination of refueling can only be good for the hope of closer, on-track racing.



#43 RealRacing

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:43

I miss the days of fragile Pirellis in 2011-2012 when the running order felt unfixed. And the tyre wars in 2001-2006 when the competitive balance could change very quickly. And the single tyre rule in 2005. And how in the late 90s they'd run in appallingly wet conditions. And the evil handling of almost every car in 1994-95.

 

Whatever's different to the present. I don't miss the present.

As said elsewhere, I would like to see them try this again. In theory, it would make the racing better. Of course, the way things are, people would mix up the variables and start saying it is what's messing F1 up.



#44 thiscocks

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:44

No. Refueling was terrible, always hated it. Leave refueling to the endurance racers



#45 BootLace

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:45

I don't mind much either way, but I do like that cars come out of the pits quicker than when they entered, and that there's actually competition from the teams for a quick stop (not just a wait for the fuel).
Just wish there wasn't a compulsory stop.

#46 Tuxy

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:50

Yes.  Mucking with the Qualifying format has been a major contributor to the lack of entertainment value.

 

Qualifying should only occur with optimal levels of fuel; not race fuel.

 

I haven't tuned into a qualifying session in 5 years.  I remember when qualifying engines were a thing.  I don't suggest we go back to that, but qualifying has to be its own thing, independent of the race.  The only influence it has should be the starting position.  

 

Then again, the rules have changed so much I don't care to keep up to date with the ridiculous churn.  I'm basically turning into this season until I lose interest; this heavily depends on how soon Mercedes declares its dominance in the championship.  I admit, I'm a casual fan now, and there are many competing interests that wrestle me away from this time-slot.


Edited by Tuxy, 24 March 2015 - 13:54.


#47 Henri Greuter

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:53

The cars, at Albert Park, for example are doing the same lap times they did 15 years ago.  The current F1 cars have gone far backwards in terms of lap pace.

 

 

Sorry mate but I am comparing F1 of today with what I remember from the pre-2K era, even before the advance of ground effects and torbocharged engines.

And those cars were nowhere near as fast as the ones of 15 years ago.

 

But we had better racing!!!!!

 

 

 

Henri



#48 Fatgadget

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:56

Spectacle and tension of cars refuelling was mega.However the dangers involved, Im not sure it was worth it. More so after the Benetton shenanigans.



#49 charly0418

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 13:56

The yearly fueling thread. Thankfully readers of this forum have now convinced themselves fueling is stupid. We'll see each other next year



#50 Ickx

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 14:02

Yes.  Mucking with the Qualifying format has been a major contributor to the lack of entertainment value.

 

Qualifying should only occur with optimal levels of fuel; not race fuel.

 

I haven't tuned into a qualifying session in 5 years.  I remember when qualifying engines were a thing.  I don't suggest we go back to that, but qualifying has to be its own thing, independent of the race.  The only influence it has should be the starting position.  

 

Then again, the rules have changed so much I don't care to keep up to date with the ridiculous churn.  I'm basically turning into this season until I lose interest; this heavily depends on how soon Mercedes declares its dominance in the championship.  I admit, I'm a casual fan now, and there are many competing interests that wrestle me away from this time-slot.

 

Thats how it i now isn't it? Well, setup is still locked but they have all the driver controlled gizmos and they have new tires and low fuel.