98 replies to this topic

[Elba]

In another thread I briefly discussed the possibility of a rivaling racing series to F1 with another poster.

Lets call it the V10 Super Series Grand Prix for now.

A series for the fans, at the classic venues, 20 euro pp to watch track side, everything FTA

 

My assertion is that a competitor won't have a snowball's chance in hell

 

1. Where's the money? Current economic climate is firmly against such frivolous enterprises

2. None of the current top teams would even think about joining a poor man's F1

3. FOM/FIA and all with a stake in current F1 would frustrate/sabotage such effort with all their might

4. Companies currently involved in F1 or Motorsport would think twice about supporting such an alternative if that could incur the wrath of the powers that be.

5. Low entrance prices means the tracks cash, the series goes bust

6. No TV broadcaster will pay serious money until the endeavor is a success 

 

and so there will be imo many more reasons such an endeavor will fail.

Which imo is exactly why this hasn't happened (unless you count A1GP as one  ) and it won't happen

 

I'd be interested in your opinion one way or the other.

Preferably realistic ones but one can dream if you must 

[BillyWhizz]

Kind of answered your own question there I'd say.

[FerrariV12]

There's zero chance I think of a series being set up specifically as a rival to F1 and succeeding, pretty much for the reasons you suggest.

 

The only chance of F1 being usurped as the pinnacle is another existing series grows organically to do so, without it ever being it's stated mission statement. IndyCar looked like it had a chance in the early 90s before the split put paid to any chance - however small - of that. I myself now prefer WEC to F1, but the race format may mean it never becomes universally popular, plus F1 isn't the only series capable of shooting itself in the foot in the future (look up the proposed ACO 2017 LMP2 regulations - they'd make the F1 Strategy Group proud)

Edited by FerrariV12, 24 March 2015 - 21:49.

[P123]

Meh- zero chance.

If you are that disillusioned with F1, or do actually enjoy more than one form of racing there is Indycar. Or WEC. Or WTCC. Ok, maybe not the last one...

[Elba]

Kind of answered your own question there I'd say.

Partly but seemingly others think such a series has a chance or might even be a "hit" so I'd be interested in their arguements

[RealRacing]

I really would like there to be an alternative to F1, especially now. And I think it could be possible.

 

-It wouldn't necessarily have to be "the poor man's F1" as I bet there would be many F1 fans willing to pay as much as they are now for going to the tracks and witnessing a really great auto race.

 

-Backing? There's talk in another thread of Dieter Mateschitz wanting to buy CVC. Why go into all that mess instead of creating something better from scratch? There are still big players in the automotive industry who may be interested in a healthy new series: BMW, Toyota, Mazda, GM, Ford, VW, Renault (the way things are going in F1), Chinese auto manufacturers.

 

-A series focused more on racing than on conservation and engineering would also be more attractive for top drivers (for the fun of driving alone but other factors as well).

 

-F1 is weak now and from a business strategy POV, it would be the ideal time to attack their monopoly position.

[Elba]

 

The only chance of F1 being usurped as the pinnacle is another existing series grows organically to do so, without it ever being it's stated mission statement. IndyCar looked like it had a chance in the early 90s before the split put paid to any chance - however small - of that. I myself now prefer WEC to F1, but the race format may mean it never becomes universally popular, plus F1 isn't the only series capable of shooting itself in the foot in the future (look up the proposed ACO 2017 LMP2 regulations - they'd make the F1 Strategy Group proud)

Same here, I prefer currently WEC to F1 too but you're right that is not for everyone('s attention span)

Your suggestion that it only could be an existing series growing organically makes sense 

[Rob]

It could happen, but it would be as a result of a mass exodus from F1. If the financial situation got even worse, a breakway could make sense as the teams could get a bigger share of the commercial rights money and the circuits wouldn't have to run races at a loss.

[hamilton10000]

Maybe a breakaway championship like what nearly happened in 2009 but I don't think any new championship could really compete with F1. It has its problems but it just seems to be too established now to be out done. No other motorsport ever gets any coverage in the mainstream sports news media (BBC/Sky Sports) so it seems unlikely that a new championship could be formed that would actually get any decent coverage

[Atreiu]

It would never work as an immediate F1 rival.

 

But maybe it could pair itself with DTM and other events throuh Europe during the season to see what happens. Rev capped loud spec V10s, big old slicks, standard chassis.

 

How much would it cost to get some old BMW V10s, downtuned for reliability?

[Elba]

-It wouldn't necessarily have to be "the poor man's F1" as I bet there would be many F1 fans willing to pay as much as they are now for going to the tracks and witnessing a really great auto race.

 

-F1 is weak now and from a business strategy POV, it would be the ideal time to attack their monopoly position.

2 good points

 

- At your first point, many fans/posters here seem to find the high fees to attend a race a put off and want their ideal series to be affordable. Also a new series won't have the "pulling power" to ask premium entrance fees like F1 does, at least initially.

 

- You are right, F1 is not in a strong position right now so it might be a most opportune time to attack them now.

[Rob]

It would never work as an immediate F1 rival.

 

But maybe it could pair itself with DTM and other events throuh Europe during the season to see what happens. Rev capped loud spec V10s, big old slicks, standard chassis.

 

How much would it cost to get some old BMW V10s, downtuned for reliability?

 

I'm thinking of something along the lines of the old Formula 5000. Yes please

[Elba]

It could happen, but it would be as a result of a mass exodus from F1. If the financial situation got even worse, a breakway could make sense as the teams could get a bigger share of the commercial rights money and the circuits wouldn't have to run races at a loss.

More money for the teams (who currently get some 63%) AND more money for the tracks seems kind of mutually exclusive imo

 

But something akin the old Formula 5000 yes please 

[Rob]

More money for the teams (who currently get some 63%) AND more money for the tracks seems kind of mutually exclusive imo

 

But something akin the old Formula 5000 yes please 

 

The tracks are currently running the events at a loss. If they could keep a decent proportion of the gate receipts then there wouldn't be a problem. That money is nothing to do with the commercial rights money as far as I know.

[ppcghost]

I wouldn't be surprised if Bernie put a clause in every track's contract that will preclude them from hosting another race without his approval.

 

Would you watch a series that didn't feature: Monaco, Sao Paulo, Monza, Silverstone, Montreal, Suzuka and of course, Abu Dhabi.

[Ali_G]

Why are people so obsessed with V10s. Gimme a V12 any day.

[OO7]

Why are people so obsessed with V10s. Gimme a V12 any day.

Given the sound that was emitted from the single exhaust V10 of the McLaren MP4/15, can you image how a single exhaust V12 would sound!

[R Soul]

There's a user here with this link in his signature, and I like it: http://www.tobyperei....uk/racing.html

[jonpollak]

I can't keep up with all this dissatisfaction.

[OO7]

I can't keep up with all this dissatisfaction.

Your not trying hard enough!

[SR388]

A1 gp says sup.

[Risil]

I can't keep up with all this dissatisfaction.

 

In many ways F1's better than it has been for a few years. So in a way the way the dissatisfaction has morphed and focused is really interesting. There's no sense anymore that Bernie (the 1980s), the FIA (1990s-2000s) or the teams (late 2000s early 2010s) can fix the situation. In fact everyone is implicated in the problem.

 

Like this interview with John Watson in the Guardian. Maybe they've been emboldened by the relentless (mostly deserved) criticism of FIFA that's come into fashion lately, but I don't recall stuff like this five or ten years ago. What on earth is going on.

[Gyno]

A1 gp says sup.

A1 GP messed up with it's Nation vs Nation thing and all having the same cars with crap engines that couldn't match F1 cars.

 

 

They should have gone head to head with F1 and have cars that would out perform F1 cars.

Driver vs driver and team vs team, not the stupid nations vs nation thing that no one cared about.

 

Also let the teams work on the cars to get them go faster or build their own cars, but the engine and gearbox would be supplied to them.

Ofcourse it would be a 900bhp engine.

 

Run on the same tracks as F1 does with cars that go 2-4 seconds faster per lap, in cars that costs a fraction of F1 cars.

Wouldn't take long before F1 is dead

[DrF]

Formula E

[Stephane]

I miss the Superleague Formula 

[V8 Fireworks]

Formula E

 

...is a glorified Formula 3.  Hardly a credible alternative to F1.

 

 

Run on the same tracks as F1 does with cars that go 2-4 seconds faster per lap, in cars that costs a fraction of F1 cars.

Wouldn't take long before F1 is dead

 

They don't need to be F1 tracks.  There are plenty of good F1-level (or close) tracks that bernie has dumped.  Magny Cours, Donnington, Portimao, Fuji, Istanbul etc etc.

 

Circuits would be more than please if the "V10 Super Series GP" would simply hire out the circuit (as clubs do for track days or whateber else), removing the circuit from financial risk!

 

Elba operates on the basis that it should cost 300m euros to go motor racing.  Half of which is sucked out of fans, circuits and television broadcasters like a vampire after blood... Just 25 years ago teams like Williams won races on 30m euros, and that is plenty.  Giant teams of 500 employees are totally ridiculous.

[V8 Fireworks]

 

5. Low entrance prices means the tracks cash, the series goes bust

6. No TV broadcaster will pay serious money until the endeavor is a success 

 

 

 

5. The series' entrants should be funded by sponsorship.  Sustainable!

 

More fans at the races -> more attraction for sponsors.

 

6. They don't need to, if unsustainable teams don't need to be propped up with this money.  If the TV broadcasters will broadcast the series for no fee (keeping the advertising revenue, or V10SSGP would buy the TV slots and keep the advertising revenue, either way), the point is that tv is simply for allowing fans to watch and to promote the sponsors (see point 5).

[V8 Fireworks]

I miss the Superleague Formula 

 

SLF and A1 erred in the silly football and nation-vs-nation concepts; also the cars were too slow.

[SenorSjon]

It would never work as an immediate F1 rival.

 

But maybe it could pair itself with DTM and other events throuh Europe during the season to see what happens. Rev capped loud spec V10s, big old slicks, standard chassis.

 

How much would it cost to get some old BMW V10s, downtuned for reliability?

 

The standard chassis is where competitors fail. Just make a standard safety cell and let the teams bolt on the parts they need. Standard mounting points for engines so you could always swap engine manufacturer if need be. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Bernie put a clause in every track's contract that will preclude them from hosting another race without his approval.

 

Would you watch a series that didn't feature: Monaco, Sao Paulo, Monza, Silverstone, Montreal, Suzuka and of course, Abu Dhabi.

 

Luckily the list of tracks not visited or never to be visited again by F1 is quite large. 

 

Magny Cours, Nurburgring, Jerez, Aragon, Turkey, Indy, Estoril (always looks like a Barcelona copy to me), Imola, Laguna Seca, etc, etc. Just add all the tracks from the past 20 years that are not visited by F1 anymore and you could have 16 GP's without much hassle. And in 5 years, you can add Monza and Silverstone to that list (though Donington appeals more to me after the Silverstone lengthening).

 

 

A1 GP and SL Formula failed due to the nations and soccer themes. It lacked development between teams, so it became just another spec series. And it looked like amateur hour most of the time. Seeing teams running with other countries bodyparts just looked really strange...

[Henri Greuter]

voted don't know.

 

What you first need is an implosion of F1 as it is right now with only the preferred teams that get the most money (Ferrari & Co) left because all other theams can't survive anymore.

You also need only Mercedes as engine supplier left because they refused to cooperate on leaning the engine development rules that could have assured they got more opposition from the other engine builders.

OK, Ferrari is probably too obsessed with F1 to leave so they will remain somehow, even when they still have no chance to give Merc a fight.

Ever more of the classic GP's being cancelled to be replaced by events in Crookistan, Bastardania, and other questionable locations that are willing to enrich Bernie Ecclestone and CVC and Herman Tilke even further.

 

Then you need a strong person and organisation to unite everyone not still in F1 and find solutions and compromises on what appeals to constructors to participate. Equality to all teams and no favourism based on tradition (as Ferrari gets) for starters.

Mind you, I doubt if many car builders in the passenger car world are keen on recreating oldfashioned, outlived, non relevant engine technology again for the sake of sound. So 17000 rpm engines of whatever configurations, forget it. It appeals certain fans, but not the engien builders you need and want competition between.

 

I fear too much has yet to happen with F1 before something else can take place, A1GP and Superleague didn't fail for nothing.....

And certainly Ferrari because of tradition and Mercedes (because of refusing to do anything else than F1 on worldwide level since WEC is a nonononono area because of Le mans 1955 and 1999) will remain in F1 and make it live on to the bitter end I fear.

 

 

Henri

[learningtobelost]

 

Would you watch a series that didn't feature: Monaco, Sao Paulo, Monza, Silverstone, Montreal, Suzuka and of course, Abu Dhabi.

 

Ah, you've seen Bernie's proposed 2019 calendar then? 

[johnmhinds]

No, there isn't much chance of anyone coming in and competing with F1, but who says a new series has to do that?

If you want something new to become popular you can't just make a second rate clone of an already popular series.

It would have to be something unique to gets the fans excited.

Edited by johnmhinds, 25 March 2015 - 09:23.

[Elba]

 

Elba operates on the basis that it should cost 300m euros to go motor racing.  Half of which is sucked out of fans, circuits and television broadcasters like a vampire after blood... Just 25 years ago teams like Williams won races on 30m euros, and that is plenty.  Giant teams of 500 employees are totally ridiculous.

No I never said that, I just calculated for you that at 20 euro pp the base income for your fictitious series, even with an unrealistic 10 million track side fans, would only be 200 million euro.

That should pay for the teams, 20 tracks (@500.000 spectators per track lol) , TV registration, logistics, regulator, medical & safety facilities, promotion and so on. Not a realistic business model imo hence it never happened or will happen

 

5. The series' entrants should be funded by sponsorship.  Sustainable!

 

More fans at the races -> more attraction for sponsors.

 

6. They don't need to, if unsustainable teams don't need to be propped up with this money.  If the TV broadcasters will broadcast the series for no fee (keeping the advertising revenue, or V10SSGP would buy the TV slots and keep the advertising revenue, either way), the point is that tv is simply for allowing fans to watch and to promote the sponsors (see point 5).

5. All fine and well but F1 teams as it is have a hard time finding sponsors while they can offer global access to millions of fans. A new start up series would not be able to offer such a global audience, so your premise that sponsorship should pay for the teams to go racing seems a tad optimistic.

 

6. Most or all successful sports derive their income for a large part from TV-income, your suggestion that this fictional series should forego this kind of revenue is novel but I think not very realistic. Reality will be that such a series would need to prove itself for some time before any significant broadcaster would want to pay any kind of serious money for the rights.

 

Anyway V8 Fireworks, don't think I find your ideas ridiculous (in fact your comments were part of the reason I started this thread).

I'd applaud another series as I think the more racing the better and 200 million a team to go racing with 500 people is indeed completely ridiculous as you say.

But I see no realistic way a series competing with F1 could at this point in time be started, let alone be successful. Too many complications, too many with vested interests in current Motorsport/F1, no sound economic basis. Only if some entity would throw a few 100 million at such an initiative to keep it afloat for a few years than it might have a glimmer of a chance but in the end such an entity would like to see some revenue from such a risky investment too.

 

Maybe I'm too skeptical but I just can't see it happening any time (soon)

[Elba]

voted don't know.

 

What you first need is an implosion of F1 as it is right now with only the preferred teams that get the most money (Ferrari & Co) left because all other theams can't survive anymore.

 

That's why I specifically stated a rivaling series to F1.

With F1 imploded a completely different situation would arise but even then as you say it would be quite a task

[Grayson]

So you're looking for a new series which...

 

- Is free to air.

- Has low ticket prices.

- Features some of the best drivers outside of the F1 grid.

- Has the full support of the big players in motorsport, including the FIA, the manufacturers and plenty of the core suppliers to F1?

 

Have you been enjoying Formula E?

 

A direct competitor to F1 will struggle for market share, but a series with close racing which can run alongside F1 can thrive.

[johnwilliamdavies]

The Red Bull Formula E racing series.

[SenorSjon]

So you're looking for a new series which...

 

- Is free to air.

- Has low ticket prices.

- Features some of the best drivers outside of the F1 grid.

- Has the full support of the big players in motorsport, including the FIA, the manufacturers and plenty of the core suppliers to F1?

 

Have you been enjoying Formula E?

 

A direct competitor to F1 will struggle for market share, but a series with close racing which can run alongside F1 can thrive.

 

FE is not FTA and has car changes during the race, fan boost and other utter crap... 

[FerrariV12]

FE is not FTA and has car changes during the race, fan boost and other utter crap... 

 

To be fair the car change is a practical thing, since swapping cars is quicker than plugging it in and waiting for it to recharge, and the only other alternative is to make the races even shorter than they currently are.

 

But at least they seem to be going in the right direction, opening up development to avoid it becoming Yet Another Spec Series, and this might have the knock on effect of increasing the range so that doing the race with 1 car becomes possible, or at least pushing it out into an area where a genuine strategic decision may be possible - either go flat-out and commit to a car change, or ease off a bit and try and get through the race with 1 car.

 

That said, you won't get any argument from me on fan boost, it's a horrible, horrible feature, of the type that the F1 would be proud of.

Edited by FerrariV12, 25 March 2015 - 11:39.

[Jamiednm]

Existing series such as Nascar need to exploit the apparent disarray in F1 by promoting their series more towards European audiences. F1 needs an established alternative to force it to see sense, live in the real world and up its game.

[Elba]

Have you been enjoying Formula E?

 

A direct competitor to F1 will struggle for market share, but a series with close racing which can run alongside F1 can thrive.

You are right of course. A non-direct competitor with its own specific angle (in this case the E) would be the best chance to initially co-exist and maybe later even compete with F1.

 

 

But at least they seem to be going in the right direction, opening up development to avoid it becoming Yet Another Spec Series, and this might have the knock on effect of increasing the range so that doing the race with 1 car becomes possible, or at least pushing it out into an area where a genuine strategic decision may be possible - either go flat-out and commit to a car change, or ease off a bit and try and get through the race with 1 car.

 

That said, you won't get any argument from me on fan boost, it's a horrible, horrible feature, of the type that the F1 would be proud of.

It seems they are indeed going in the right direction. Found a nice niche in the E-racing, work together with the powers that be, some decent drivers, financial sustainability with their new investors.

Maybe I should pay a bit more attention this season?

But that fan boost WTF  sounds like something Bernie would suggest

[Disgrace]

The fan boost sounded like the end of civilisation as we know it, but it has much less of a destructive impact on the actual racing than DRS does in F1. For now at least, it's a minor quibble.

[MikeV1987]

Indycar 

[andrewr]

...is a glorified Formula 3.  Hardly a credible alternative to F1.

 

 

Maybe, but it's (Formula E) in its first season and has been very enjoyable to watch. Who knows where it may go.

Edited by andrewr, 25 March 2015 - 12:44.

[Disgrace]

FE is not FTA and has car changes during the race, fan boost and other utter crap... 

 

Nobody cares about the car change really, just like nobody has cared much that they have to charge their smartphone every night. Battery life is much less romantic of a pursuit than peak performance in the early stages of development. Once things mature and settle down, as they have in the smartphone market, an emphasis can be placed on battery life.

[Elba]

The fan boost sounded like the end of civilisation as we know it, but it has much less of a destructive impact on the actual racing than DRS does in F1. For now at least, it's a minor quibble.

I'll take your word for it as I know next to nothing about the series but the fan boost concept sounded quite weird to me.

 

From what I've seen and read in the E-thread it seems like quite an interesting series, I'm gonna give it a shot this season.

Edited by Elba, 25 March 2015 - 12:45.

[SonJR]

The only truly viable - and even that is debatable - chance for a competitive alternative, was when FOCA was considering a split. No way to get similar powerful players (teams/constructors) on the same page again now, with how big the divide is.

[grandepreuve]

I think what needs to be addressed, realistically, is what comes after F1. What can be done to replace the current unworkable structure?

 

Bernie has been nobody's fool, but the model he created can only survive so long - he's made his money from it, job done.

 

We ought to let F1 die, I truly believe that. Everything about it stinks. It is grossly over-priced and requires and persist on government 'sponsorship'. It is a redistribution of walth from the have nots to the have way too much. It has become a 'sport' with no integrity

 

How has this come to pass? As I say Bernie has been no fool. He required the complicit behaviour of the FIA. he couldn't just have the rights to the F1 World Championship, he had to own the very name and concept 'Formula 1' - otherwise race organisors who wouldn't pay the price for a WDC event could instead run a non-championship race, undermining the control of pricing (and offering the possibility, also, of alternative, competing championships). He also had to end F2 (not difficult at the time, it was disproportionally more expensive than could be sustained - rather like F1 is at the moment) or any potential competitor.

 

What should a new 'F1' be like, is the question I think. And I don;t think what a sutainable F1 ought  to be could possibly work within the framework of the current model.

 

Would the majority of fans (or potential entrants, or race promoters) be happy with an IRL like series? I don't, personally, think so. So, how do you ensure the cost benefits of, for example, a single constructor championship with a multiple constructor model?

 

My own answer would be to demand that any constructor must make their product available to another two teams at a fixed maximum price. For engine manufacturers and tyre manufacturers use a formula, such as that you must make your product available to x number of teams depending upon how many alternative manufacturers there are at (again) a fixed maximum price.

 

The FIA can then sell the rights (on a fixed, short-term basis) to the World Championship on the basis of giving the organisor the rights to a percentage of the advertising space at the circuit and a fixed prize funding for championship events - as well as ownership of the TV rights.

 

This model starts to spread the costs among the competitors and organisors, and stops the power from being in the hands of any individual group.

 

Just a few ideas.

[V8 Fireworks]

 

Maybe I'm too skeptical but I just can't see it happening any time (soon)

 

The fact of the matter is there was a time when Grand Prix racing was for everybody.

 

There is no reason why we cannot bring open wheel grand prix back to the fore.  A more accessible. Formula 1 is merely one kind of open wheel Grand Prix racing.  There is absolutely no reason there cannot be others. 

 

 

^ Powerful open wheel racing that's NOT formula one.   

 

^ Did the guys above receive half their budget in travel money?  No.  They paid for their own motor racing with their sponsors, patrons and so on. 

Did fans pay a week's wage for a grandstand seat?  Nope.

Who did the broadcasting?  The broadcasting was provided by the public (Government) broadcaster as a public service.

 

Elba you keep saying you need revenues of 100s of million (usually by bleeding fans, circuits and broadcasters dry) to run a motorsport series.  It's simple not true.  There is so much motor racing that goes on without anything like that.  If anything this pay wall keeps people away from motor racing and stops them from becoming interested.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 March 2015 - 13:06.

[Elba]

I think what needs to be addressed, realistically, is what comes after F1. 

 

We ought to let F1 die, I truly believe that. 

 

What should a new 'F1' be like, is the question I think.

The gist of this thread was specifically NOT what comes after F1 but about the possibility of a series competing with F1.

 

You make some good points but they might be better suited in one of the gazillion "F1 must die", "is F1 broken" or "how should my F1 be" threads.

[grandepreuve]

The gist of this thread was specifically NOT what comes after F1 but about the possibility of a series competing with F1.

 

You make some good points but they might be better suited in one of the gazillion "F1 must die", "is F1 broken" or "how should my F1 be" threads.

 

And the gist of the response is....there can't be an alternative - the model is such that it cannot allow a competitor into the market. If there was an alternative it would, just by the nature of competing against the power that F1 holds, kill F1. I am addressing a) why the question is even being asked (why an alternative to F1) and b) as an aspect of that what form should that 'alternative' take

 

Or to put it another way, the very problems that have fans pondering an 'alternative' is the reason that no 'alternative' will be allowed to happen while F1 survives.