98 replies to this topic

[redreni]

Look at what happened to Indycar.

 

F1 could easily fall victim to a breakaway series, loss of popularity, hiding on channels that people don't watch.

 

For another series to actually overtake F1 as the accepted pinnacle of motorsport would take a pretty extra-ordinary sequence of events, but ultimately if the manufacturers pull out of F1 and immediately club together to bankroll a pirate championship, schedule it to clash with F1 and offer it to the mainstream FTA broadcasters as a cheaper alternative to F1 in which they don't have to share the rights with subscription TV or make do with highlights, why not? If the new championship had Mercedes and Honda and Renault/Infiniti/Red Bull in it, say, why wouldn't the big FTA broadcasters go for it, and drop F1 from their schedules to make room? I don't think it's likely at present, but it's very possible.

 

The manufacturers would have to subsidise it quite heavily to begin with, of course, and maybe you're right that they wouldn't want to, in which case they would just pull out of F1 and not replace it with another major motorsport programme, and F1 would just struggle on as it is now, losing sponsors and viewers and competitors and struggling more and more to fill the slots on the grid. It will have to fall a very long way in popularity before it gets overtaken by any existing category.

Edited by redreni, 25 March 2015 - 13:34.

[Elba]

Elba you keep saying you need revenues of 100s of million (usually by bleeding fans, circuits and broadcasters dry) to run a motorsport series.  It's simple not true.  There is so much motor racing that goes on without anything like that.  If anything this pay wall keeps people away from motor racing and stops them from becoming interested.

Thanks for the YT video good memories 

 

I'm sorry but your idea of a global series that competes with F1 on a shoestring budget is completely unrealistic in this day and age. You underestimate the cost of such an endeavor.

 

Lets go back to the amount of 30 million you mentioned Williams could race for perfectly fine a decade or so ago.

With 10 teams on such a budget that's already 300 million, then there's the cost for safety, regulating, the tracks, promotion, management etc etc  That's 300+ million right there that has to come from somewhere. Is all that to come from sponsoring? fat chance in the current economy and with a new series that no one knows about. No significant money would be coming in from broadcasters with a new and unproven series and millions of fans won't flock to the tracks all of a sudden. Building a global racing series takes time and a lot of money that's why so many fail and why there's no competition of any significance for F1.

 

Racing is expensive, global racing at the top end is insanely expensive.

Creating a poor man's F1 and expect it to compete with F1 on a shoestring budget is impossible.

[Elba]

And the gist of the response is....there can't be an alternative - the model is such that it cannot allow a competitor into the market. If there was an alternative it would, just by the nature of competing against the power that F1 holds, kill F1. I am addressing a) why the question is even being asked (why an alternative to F1) and b) as an aspect of that what form should that 'alternative' take

 

Or to put it another way, the very problems that have fans pondering an 'alternative' is the reason that no 'alternative' will be allowed to happen while F1 survives.

Thanks for the explanation 

I agree with the bolded part

[Rob]

The manufacturers would have to subsidise it quite heavily to begin with, of course, and maybe you're right that they wouldn't want to, in which case they would just pull out of F1 and not replace it with another major motorsport programme, and F1 would just struggle on as it is now, losing sponsors and viewers and competitors and struggling more and more to fill the slots on the grid. It will have to fall a very long way in popularity before it gets overtaken by any existing category.

 

I don't think they'd necessarily have to subsidise it heavily. They could get TV money fairly early on by putting the rights out to tender. They wouldn't need as much TV revenue as F1 as they'd be getting a much higher percentage of it.

[V8 Fireworks]

Racing is expensive, global racing at the top end is insanely expensive.

Creating a poor man's F1 and expect it to compete with F1 on a shoestring budget is impossible.

 

Hmmm... possibly.

 

My opinion is that Europe is a much more sympathetic market for powerful open wheel racing than the USA.  More than half the drivers, and many of the sponsors, in Champcar came from Europe!  Yes there was not enough interest in the US to support Champcar.  

 

Would there be more interest in an organised open wheel road course racing series in Europe?  Almost certainly.  Especially with fans, and therefore Euro-centric sponsors, feeling that high level European open wheel racing is being abandoned by F1....

 

I think Champcar in Europe is a far more viable proposition than Champcar in the USA, and should still be a credible proposition. 

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 25 March 2015 - 14:26.

[SenorSjon]

Thanks for the YT video good memories 

 

I'm sorry but your idea of a global series that competes with F1 on a shoestring budget is completely unrealistic in this day and age. You underestimate the cost of such an endeavor.

 

Lets go back to the amount of 30 million you mentioned Williams could race for perfectly fine a decade or so ago.

With 10 teams on such a budget that's already 300 million, then there's the cost for safety, regulating, the tracks, promotion, management etc etc  That's 300+ million right there that has to come from somewhere. Is all that to come from sponsoring? fat chance in the current economy and with a new series that no one knows about. No significant money would be coming in from broadcasters with a new and unproven series and millions of fans won't flock to the tracks all of a sudden. Building a global racing series takes time and a lot of money that's why so many fail and why there's no competition of any significance for F1.

 

Racing is expensive, global racing at the top end is insanely expensive.

Creating a poor man's F1 and expect it to compete with F1 on a shoestring budget is impossible.

 

For let's say 15 races, do you really need 20m/race to organize it? That is FOM-territory fees. Most infrastructure is already at the track. If you asume 100-125k visitors paying 30 euro each you have about  3-4m entrance fees. Add some more for the food/merchandise stands and trackside sponsoring and I think you have a healthy budget to organize a race. 

 

Perhaps the 'fallen-from-grace' tracks can organise a series. The current circus is very expensive and not very entertaining.

[Ensign]

You'd need a billionaire enthusiast to finance and swallow the losses for the first few years - like Larry Ellison has sunk a lot into an America's Cup team and the Indian Wells tennis tournament facilities.

 

Such a series would also have to be given away to OTA ("over the air", free) broadcasters or online for the first couple of years to create interest in the first place.  I don't think we'll ever again see a new sports league that depends on subscription TV develop any kind of significant following due to changing ways in which we consume content (I hate that expression).   

 

It would probably need to be a mostly spec series too for the first few years in order to attract investors for new teams otherwise expenses would be enormous. Let's say Red Bull, genuinely sick of F1, builds a car based on what they think will create exciting racing then sells it off the rack to teams who can then modify it within a set formula. Over the years those teams flush with sponsorship $$$$ from all that FTA TV then have enough to design and build their own car. Easy peasy!

Edited by Ensign, 25 March 2015 - 14:55.

[D28]

Watching the internecine squabbling which effectively ruined OP racing in N America, I never would have bet on the George-IRL faction to prevail. That they were able to outlast CART depended most on the family's control of the premier event the Indy 500. I would not bet on F1 being impervious to a rival startup series. If a new series included Ferrari, the only team continuously associated with F1 since 1950, plus 1 or more competitive teams and drivers it could well happen.

 

In the thread on F1 Tipping Point, mention was made that the real point may have been reached at the 2014 US GP. The investors in COTA spent millions in building the facilities and signing on with Bernie to have but 18 cars show up to race; similarly the organizers of the Brazil GP. Bahrain had a full complement of cars because of a gimmicky points system, but Australia 2015 was back to 18 qualifiers.

Not viable in the longterm IMO.

Searching for news on the New Jersey US GP I see nothing current; has this event finally been shelved?

[Elba]

Hmmm... possibly.

 

My opinion is that Europe is a much more sympathetic market for powerful open wheel racing than the USA.  More than half the drivers, and many of the sponsors, in Champcar came from Europe!  Yes there was not enough interest in the US to support Champcar.  

 

Would there be more interest in an organised open wheel road course racing series in Europe?  Almost certainly.  Especially with fans, and therefore Euro-centric sponsors, feeling that high level European open wheel racing is being abandoned by F1....

 

I think Champcar in Europe is a far more viable proposition than Champcar in the USA, and should still be a credible proposition. 

Sounds reasonable but I know too little about Champcar or open wheel racing in the USA to have an educated opinion on that.

 

It might be true that there's room for some kind of high level European open wheel racing but didn't Champcar try that in the past?

Also one of my objections would still be valid as I would expect the powers that be to frustrate such an initiative if it would in any way become a competitor to F1.

 

For let's say 15 races, do you really need 20m/race to organize it? That is FOM-territory fees. Most infrastructure is already at the track. If you asume 100-125k visitors paying 30 euro each you have about  3-4m entrance fees. Add some more for the food/merchandise stands and trackside sponsoring and I think you have a healthy budget to organize a race. 

 

Perhaps the 'fallen-from-grace' tracks can organise a series. The current circus is very expensive and not very entertaining.

Sorry you misunderstood my math. I was not trying to say it would cost 20 million a race to organize as that's almost FOM territory but merely explaining that even if it's a fraction of the costs of current F1, 10 teams with a 30 million budget each would need to find 300+ million to go racing.

With your turnover of 4 million a race (minus 1 million costs & profit for the local organizer) that would only generate 60 million in a 20 race season.

Where would the other 240+ million come from? Sponsors, not likely in the current day and age, TV companies, not for an unproven series.

 

Point is it's insanely expensive to start a new series that truly competes with F1 on a global scale that's (partly) why earlier initiatives failed and why imo an alternative series won't happen anytime soon.

Unless, as others have already stipulated, a specific situation would arise (such as the demise of F1, manufacturers united breaking away or a billionaire wishing to be a millionaire  ) where suddenly there's a window of opportunity and the vast amount of $$ needed.

But as things are now I think a competing series won't have any chance at all

[ronsingapore]

You'd need a billionaire enthusiast to finance and swallow the losses for the first few years - like Larry Ellison has sunk a lot into an America's Cup team and the Indian Wells tennis tournament facilities.

 

Such a series would also have to be given away to OTA ("over the air", free) broadcasters or online for the first couple of years to create interest in the first place.  I don't think we'll ever again see a new sports league that depends on subscription TV develop any kind of significant following due to changing ways in which we consume content (I hate that expression).   

 

It would probably need to be a mostly spec series too for the first few years in order to attract investors for new teams otherwise expenses would be enormous. Let's say Red Bull, genuinely sick of F1, builds a car based on what they think will create exciting racing then sells it off the rack to teams who can then modify it within a set formula. Over the years those teams flush with sponsorship $$$$ from all that FTA TV then have enough to design and build their own car. Easy peasy! ; 

 

Not one billionaire -  but a consortium of multi-billionaires - billionaires are billionaires for one reason ; they make money rather than lose money; and for every dollar they put in, they expect the amount to multiply by at least a few times.

[Lipp]

Am A WEC fan myself. It just delivers good value for money. Many makes and great looking cars!

[pdac]

No chance. It's all about the money. At present F1 is followed (watched on TV) by a whole bunch of people who do not follow any other motorsport series. That means that F1 can raise a lot of money from TV fees. It's this income that makes F1 is what it is. A new series just would not be able to raise the levels of funding that F1 does. If F1 disappered, then those viewers would probably be happy watching some reality show about a bunch of celebrities stranded in a remote undeveloped part of the world.

[ch103]

When I studied Finance in college, the professors used to preach that investors with a "Long Term" view will outperform those with a "Short Term" view.  I think the fact that F1 is run by a person who is at the end of life is one of the primary reasons why F1 has taken a "Short Term" view on everything since 1995.  The leadership simply does not care about the consequences to the sport in the Long Term.  It only cares about maximizing the value of their investment "right now" and many people, rightfully, feel rubbed the wrong way.

 

As far as a rival series, I think that yes, there absolutely can be a rival to F1.  The biggest obstacle to overcome is the tradition of the sport as well as the habit that so many of us have in keeping up with "the next race".  From an engineering perspective, the rule book for the new series should state that the only engines that are permitted are ones that are sold in road cars.  Let the engineers do whatever they want to the engine, but they must start with a roadcar engine, in a car that has at least "X" number of units on the road. 

 

As previous posters have already singled out - there is an abundance of great tracks available for other series to use.  It would not be difficult to easily list 20 non-F1 tracks that could be used.  As long as the new rival series has safe, cost effective cars that provide drivers and viewers with the sensation of speed, it will fly.  Open the sport up to the fans, they are why it exists in the first place.  Make the paddock and garage access free and watch masses flock to see the teams, cars and drivers.

 

Bernie just cannot sacrifice $1 today to make $1.15 in one year.  He only cares about today and that is the driver of all of the problems, imo. 

[Szoelloe]

 

In another thread I briefly discussed the possibility of a rivaling racing series to F1 with another poster.

 

No. "alternative" in this case means parallel. I'd advise you to read back on the breakaway - mosley/FIA - Montezemolo - FOTA threads a few years back. The idea is not worth a breath and is a bone chewed shiny white already.

[RealRacing]

How many relevant teams in F1 at the moment? Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, McLaren, Williams, Lotus.

 

As said, potential heavy newcomers: VW (with Porsche, Audi, Lambo, even Bugatti or Bentley), Toyota, Ford, GM, Mazda, Peugeot, BMW.

 

With better rules and money distribution, it shouldn't be too complicated to lure one or more of the teams currently in F1 as well. Renault and Lotus would be prime candidates due to their current situation.

 

"Tired of one team domination? Of drivers not being able to push? Of stupid rules? Of gizmos? Of dull tracks? Of dull racing? Try F1.2! Real racing engines with racing sound! No limits on fuel, tyres, engines, so drivers can actually race! Overtaking-friendly specs! Best circuits, classic and new!" 

 

I'd sign for pay per view tomorrow...

[Rasputin]

I think the CART-series of the late 90s was fantastic, five differnet chassis, four engine manufacturers, all spread over more than a dozen serious teams, diversified sponsors and great drivers.

 

The 1999 season alone had ten different race-winners, more than F1 has had in a decade.

 

I'd love to see that concept again.

Edited by Rasputin, 25 March 2015 - 17:39.

[Lazy]

 

 

The 1999 season alone had ten different race-winners, more than F1 has had in a decade.

 

 

Pfft, that's nothing, F1 had 7 race winners in 7 races in 2012.

[Szoelloe]

How many relevant teams in F1 at the moment? Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, McLaren, Williams, Lotus.

 

As said, potential heavy newcomers: VW (with Porsche, Audi, Lambo, even Bugatti or Bentley), Toyota, Ford, GM, Mazda, Peugeot, BMW.

 

With better rules and money distribution, it shouldn't be too complicated to lure one or more of the teams currently in F1 as well. Renault and Lotus would be prime candidates due to their current situation.

 

"Tired of one team domination? Of drivers not being able to push? Of stupid rules? Of gizmos? Of dull tracks? Of dull racing? Try F1.2! Real racing engines with racing sound! No limits on fuel, tyres, engines, so drivers can actually race! Overtaking-friendly specs! Best circuits, classic and new!" 

 

I'd sign for pay per view tomorrow...

 

of course. Still I suggest you skim through the above mentioned threads. All the fairy tales have been mentioned there already.

[Elba]

No. "alternative" in this case means parallel. I'd advise you to read back on the breakaway - mosley/FIA - Montezemolo - FOTA threads a few years back. The idea is not worth a breath and is a bone chewed shiny white already.

Thanks for the tip 

I followed things back then and there was a bit more substance to a possible breakaway then but still the conclusion of all those with their feet firmly planted in reality was: not possible, no chance

 

How many relevant teams in F1 at the moment? Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault, McLaren, Williams, Lotus.

 

As said, potential heavy newcomers: VW (with Porsche, Audi, Lambo, even Bugatti or Bentley), Toyota, Ford, GM, Mazda, Peugeot, BMW.

 

With better rules and money distribution, it shouldn't be too complicated to lure one or more of the teams currently in F1 as well. Renault and Lotus would be prime candidates due to their current situation.

 

"Tired of one team domination? Of drivers not being able to push? Of stupid rules? Of gizmos? Of dull tracks? Of dull racing? Try F1.2! Real racing engines with racing sound! No limits on fuel, tyres, engines, so drivers can actually race! Overtaking-friendly specs! Best circuits, classic and new!" 

 

I'd sign for pay per view tomorrow...

Quite a lot of ifs, if some manufacturers join, if current teams can be lured etc

Question remains who is going to finance all this?

Answer: at the moment no one, it's simply not feasible, too risky an investment. Not going to happen.

But I have to give you, your sales pitch for the new Formula is quite good 

[DILLIGAF]

A new series? No

A breakaway series? Possibly.

[ninetyzero]

I think the CART-series of the late 90s was fantastic, five differnet chassis, four engine manufacturers, all spread over more than a dozen serious teams, diversified sponsors and great drivers.

 

The 1999 season alone had ten different race-winners, more than F1 has had in a decade.

 

I'd love to see that concept again.

 

90's Indycar/CART was indeed a good F1 alternative, modern Indycar not so much...

[readonly]

This is very very difficult. I think that the only way to go would be to restart F1. This is, to start a series very similar to the early F1 where you could get your car and race against the best in any Grand Prix race as an amateur. After enthusiasm was generated, the series could start to be popular and only then proffitable.Limitations to cars should be almos non existent: a safety shell to protect drivers and a máximum length and width (perhaps a few more). In this way, cars could eventually be faster than an F1 car. Of course, the starting grid should be based on the current WDC status reversed (to ensure a great show every race).

 

If this series can be run without the FIA, it has real possibilities.

[SenorSjon]

Thanks for the tip 

I followed things back then and there was a bit more substance to a possible breakaway then but still the conclusion of all those with their feet firmly planted in reality was: not possible, no chance

 

Quite a lot of ifs, if some manufacturers join, if current teams can be lured etc

Question remains who is going to finance all this?

Answer: at the moment no one, it's simply not feasible, too risky an investment. Not going to happen.

But I have to give you, your sales pitch for the new Formula is quite good 

 

Bernie waved around a lot of money to prevent a breakaway series from happening. His only goals was to get Ferrari on board and the rest would follow.

[ronsingapore]

I think the CART-series of the late 90s was fantastic, five differnet chassis, four engine manufacturers, all spread over more than a dozen serious teams, diversified sponsors and great drivers.

 

The 1999 season alone had ten different race-winners, more than F1 has had in a decade.

 

I'd love to see that concept again.

 

But CART/Camp car still went bankrupt in the end. The true key here is how to keep the annual cash flow sustainable? what is the attraction for circuits to pay outsized hosting fees? For TV companies to pay TV rights?

[Rob]

But CART/Camp car still went bankrupt in the end. The true key here is how to keep the annual cash flow sustainable? what is the attraction for circuits to pay outsized hosting fees? For TV companies to pay TV rights?

 

The main problem that CART had was that the IRL was happy to run in an unsustainable way via frequent injections of the family's cash. Without that they would have folded long ago and the big teams would never have left CART.

[ch103]

The main problem that CART had was that the IRL was happy to run in an unsustainable way via frequent injections of the family's cash. Without that they would have folded long ago and the big teams would never have left CART.

 

Lets also not forget, the IRL owned the Indy 500, which is still the crown jewel of American OW racing.  Had CART owned the 500, it would still exist.  Remember, all of the big name teams went with CART.

[beqa16v]

I really would like there to be an alternative to F1, especially now. And I think it could be possible.

 

-It wouldn't necessarily have to be "the poor man's F1" as I bet there would be many F1 fans willing to pay as much as they are now for going to the tracks and witnessing a really great auto race.

 

-Backing? There's talk in another thread of Dieter Mateschitz wanting to buy CVC. Why go into all that mess instead of creating something better from scratch? There are still big players in the automotive industry who may be interested in a healthy new series: BMW, Toyota, Mazda, GM, Ford, VW, Renault (the way things are going in F1), Chinese auto manufacturers.

 

-A series focused more on racing than on conservation and engineering would also be more attractive for top drivers (for the fun of driving alone but other factors as well).

 

-F1 is weak now and from a business strategy POV, it would be the ideal time to attack their monopoly position.

 

It would require a lot of money, specifically to attract retired F1 drivers, Like Webber, Rubens, DC, Mika, and later Kimi, Jens and Alonso when they retire. Cars dont need to be spectacularly fast, it does not need to rival F1 in terms of speed. Standard cars, only setup work allowed like in mono series and big names would be enough. It would take years to establish itself though

Edited by beqa16v, 26 March 2015 - 11:15.

[Rob]

Lets also not forget, the IRL owned the Indy 500, which is still the crown jewel of American OW racing.  Had CART owned the 500, it would still exist.  Remember, all of the big name teams went with CART.

 

I don't think the 500 was that critical. The main issue seemed to me that CART was having to compete with a rival that had significantly more money.

[V8 Fireworks]

It would require a lot of money, specifically to attract retired F1 drivers, Like Webber, Rubens, DC, Mika, and later Kimi, Jens and Alonso when they retire. 

 

Retired F1 drivers aren't that special...

 

The likes of Coletti, Evans, Vandoorne, Magnussen etc could put on a good show.

 

Trulli, Kovalainen, di Resta etc could participate, but even Hakkinen probably would not contend for race wins...

 

[ViMaMo]

Since some want gentleman drivers, FIA should arrange for a chauffeur round. 

[Rasputin]

90's Indycar/CART was indeed a good F1 alternative, modern Indycar not so much...

True, to call today's Indycars "open wheel racing" is ridicilous;

 

[RealRacing]

It would require a lot of money, specifically to attract retired F1 drivers, Like Webber, Rubens, DC, Mika, and later Kimi, Jens and Alonso when they retire. Cars dont need to be spectacularly fast, it does not need to rival F1 in terms of speed. Standard cars, only setup work allowed like in mono series and big names would be enough. It would take years to establish itself though

I don't think it should necessarily be retired drivers. If they manage to have one or more of the big manufacturers that's not in F1, they could lure one or more of the current top drivers, or, at least, drivers that were going to retire soon anyway: Jenson, Kimi, FA. This series should focus on competing directly with F1, not being a kind of second-rate F1. Take advantage of the crisis in F1 and attack. 

[ch103]

I don't think the 500 was that critical. The main issue seemed to me that CART was having to compete with a rival that had significantly more money.

 

The Indy 500 was absolutely that critical.  No one could name a single driver from the original IRL year.  Go ahead and say Buddy Lazier.  Besides his miracle victory, the original IRL had nothing on CART.  The US500 had all of the big name drivers and teams, but it had zero tradition during the year it went head to head with the Indy 500.  In the USA, the Indy 500 is what OW racing is built upon and the IRL owned it.

[ch103]

 

True, to call today's Indycars "open wheel racing" is ridicilous;

 

 

 

 

I agree, the rear wheels are not open as they used to be.  But in the name of safety, I am OK with them.

[V8 Fireworks]

I don't think it should necessarily be retired drivers. If they manage to have one or more of the big manufacturers that's not in F1, they could lure one or more of the current top drivers, or, at least, drivers that were going to retire soon anyway: Jenson, Kimi, FA.

 

F1 drivers are not that special.

 

There are dozens of talents in junior formulae every year who would do just as good of a job given similar opportunity and training.

[RealRacing]

F1 drivers are not that special.

 

There are dozens of talents in junior formulae every year who would do just as good of a job given similar opportunity and training.

Agree partially, there are many good ones, few very talented ones. But I was thinking of them mainly for their marketing value.

[Radoye]

Hmmm... possibly.

 

My opinion is that Europe is a much more sympathetic market for powerful open wheel racing than the USA.  More than half the drivers, and many of the sponsors, in Champcar came from Europe!  Yes there was not enough interest in the US to support Champcar.  

 

Would there be more interest in an organised open wheel road course racing series in Europe?  Almost certainly.  Especially with fans, and therefore Euro-centric sponsors, feeling that high level European open wheel racing is being abandoned by F1....

 

I think Champcar in Europe is a far more viable proposition than Champcar in the USA, and should still be a credible proposition. 

 

You should look at the number of Europeans in CART before 'the split', as soon as that happened the damage was done. Yes, post-split the CCWS half of the IndyCar world was arguably more 'European-friendly' but that's just a part of the picture (and might actually be one of the reasons CCWS ultimately failed).

[Sin]

Formula E !

[Rob]

The Indy 500 was absolutely that critical.  No one could name a single driver from the original IRL year.  Go ahead and say Buddy Lazier.  Besides his miracle victory, the original IRL had nothing on CART.  The US500 had all of the big name drivers and teams, but it had zero tradition during the year it went head to head with the Indy 500.  In the USA, the Indy 500 is what OW racing is built upon and the IRL owned it.

 

I agree that the Indy 500 was important in the end, but I think that without being propped up by the Hulman/George family the IRL would have folded before the exodus began.

[Henri Greuter]

I don't think the 500 was that critical. The main issue seemed to me that CART was having to compete with a rival that had significantly more money.

 

The 500 was more critical than you suggest.

CHip Ganassi racing had provided the 4 CART champions since the split (Vasser, Zanardi twice and Montoya), thus a full house up till 2000. nevertheless, the prestige of the Indy 500 was big enough for Target to have Ganassi obtain IRL equipment for one single race within the IRL that year: Indy. Which they won and gave them even more media focus than 4 straight CART titles.

Seeing that, and wit his zeal/crush on Indy 500 victories, Roger Penske followed suit in 2001 and with the tow most powerful teams of CART returning to Indy, the die was cast.

The Hulman-George family may have kept the series afloat for even longer and even more if turly necessary but the arrival of Ganassi and Penkse within their series as well as a few other major players of the past, as well as the arrival of Danica (!!!!!) that really helped IRl to get the upperhand over CART and/or whatever the names it used thereafter in their own post 2K turmoil.

 

The breaking point in the civil war was when Ganassi went to Indy in 2000. That exposed the `might` that the Indy500 still had, despite the mediocre races and quality of thewinners of the 4 years since the split.

I know there are diehard Indyfans who celbrate and rate Buddy Lazier,  Eddie Cheever and Kenny Brack for winning the 500 while Michael Andretti never managed to do so.

pffff.....

The only one I rate as a quality driver winner out of that era is Arie Luyendijk because in the heydays of CART he had been on par with the best of the CART bunch at Indy at that time. Arie's results between 1990-1993 and to some extent 1994-1995 say enough abouth that.

 

Henri

[Fulcrum]

I don't think the 500 was that critical. The main issue seemed to me that CART was having to compete with a rival that had significantly more money.

The CART owners had far more money. But they never spent a dollar on the series. That was the problem.

[August]

If both Germany and Italy lost F1, then I think IndyCar should immediately book Nürburgring/Hockenheim and Monza for races. There may not be another as good a chance for them to make ground in Europe. I think the risk of losing the Italian GP is real. If Monza can't afford paying the sanctioning fee, I expect no gifts from Bernie nor another Italian track stepping in.

 

At least there's no other series I could imagine being able to be an F1 substitute. WEC may be an alternative for manufacturers but its 6h format is more for hardcore fans. DTM might have a fan-attracting format but it's the #2 project for 2 of 3 manufacturers. All European single-seaters are feeder classes. FE has a strong grid and obviously the city events work well but put an F3 race there and it makes FE look slow.

 

I'd like to see IndyCar trying to expand into Europe and have succeed in that. Would be nice to see how F1 would respond. F1 would still be strong enough to prevent IndyCar becoming big in Europe but it'd have to drop sanctioning fees to get its lost races back. Would F1 do that?

[superden]

I agree, the rear wheels are not open as they used to be. But in the name of safety, I am OK with them.

Safe? Possibly.

Ugly? **** yes. They are the ugliest single seaters I've ever seen. From every angle, they just look awful.

[KingTiger]

I think the only way it would work is if Red Bull decide to start up their own championship, in a partnership with IndyCar. They'd run on most of the US road tracks along side, and races at the major European tracks and emerging markets like Brazil, China, Japan etc. 

 

The cars would be made by their Milton Keynes facilities, with other chassis manufacturers allowed to compete. Teams could run multiple cars if they wish. "Racing" engines (V10 or 12) would be sourced by Judd or Cosworth, without the pointless green FIA crap. Costs will be controlled by the cheap engines and a limit to the race crews. Multiple races could be run per weekend to give the TV companies and fans/tracks more bang for their buck. 

[anneomoly]

Depends how long a time period you're looking at. Leave it long enough, and Formula E just might be it. Low cost, city centre racing - they're planning on dropping the car changes for the 2018/19 season, which is not that far away. Good support from team names that are well established elsewhere and both sides of the Atlantic - McLaren, Williams, Andretti, DAMS - as well as car manufacturers. Doing its best to be engaging and open to people - races are freely available on YouTube for non FTA countries (and in the UK it is FTA for every race, unlike F1). Good driver talent - both ex-F1 and rejected F1 talent (the ex-Red Bull juniors in there are no slouches).

 

It depends, I'd guess, on two things. How it manages itself and survives over the next 5-10 years, and what happens to a Formula 1 engine over the next 10-15 years. If electric cars/batteries are the future, then I'm not sure how both survive unless you end up with one street circuit series and one traditional track series. The other alternative is that the future is hydrogen cars, or some kind of cleaner combustion engine, or that F1 stagnates and withers away as it stops being the cutting edge of car technology and starts being a dinosaur that can be outstripped by road cars, kept on life support for its petrol quaintness.

 

But in the short term, no. I can't think of any other series that could match it for viewers, the other major FIA series that might have time constraints in that they take a long time to run (WRC, WEC) and aren't television friendly. Not many other major sports take at least 6 hours to watch live. Unless they're cricket.

[August]

FE needs to reach at least WSR3.5-level speed before it becomes a real alternative for F1.

[AaronMackay]

 

In another thread I briefly discussed the possibility of a rivaling racing series to F1 with another poster.

Lets call it the V10 Super Series Grand Prix for now.

A series for the fans, at the classic venues, 20 euro pp to watch track side, everything FTA

 

My assertion is that a competitor won't have a snowball's chance in hell

 

1. Where's the money? Current economic climate is firmly against such frivolous enterprises

2. None of the current top teams would even think about joining a poor man's F1

3. FOM/FIA and all with a stake in current F1 would frustrate/sabotage such effort with all their might

4. Companies currently involved in F1 or Motorsport would think twice about supporting such an alternative if that could incur the wrath of the powers that be.

5. Low entrance prices means the tracks cash, the series goes bust

6. No TV broadcaster will pay serious money until the endeavor is a success 

 

and so there will be imo many more reasons such an endeavor will fail.

Which imo is exactly why this hasn't happened (unless you count A1GP as one  ) and it won't happen

 

I'd be interested in your opinion one way or the other.

Preferably realistic ones but one can dream if you must 

 

TBH you make a good point as F1 is decreasing and there used be well more teams competing in F1 as there is today and i think there should be an alternative series setup such as you have described is such a good idea like Superleague formula when it was around i honestly wish there was an alternative series to f1 like Superleague Formula

[SenorSjon]

I only can think of a rejuvenated IndyCar like the mid '90s can seriously dent F1. CART went to Assen once. Not a single overtake since the track is motorbike oriented and to small for cars.

 

FE is nice for the flipflop kinda green guy, but I can't see it attracting huge crowds. In the end they will have to have TV and attendance money. In the Netherlands it isn't even on FTA, but on Fox Sports. Since almost no-one has that channel, no-one watches FE.

[ronsingapore]

Does a breakaway series needs the blessings of the FIA or could something be started from the ground-up and ignore the FIA? I mean, both Champcar, NASCAR and IRL ignores the FIA, don't there?

 

Secondly, how much of seed money would one need to get this going? say, on average, at least a 12 races per the first 2 seasons, to get the thing going before it turns in a profit????