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VLN Nurburgring - car landed in a spectator area


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#251 New Britain

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 21:48

Awful lot of ifs there though...

 

 

Yeah...if...

 

People judging the driver before any kind of investigation is done is a little silly.

 

In all the videos i've seen his car is up in the air before it even comes into view over the crest, there is no way for us to judge how fast he was going or if speed was a factor.

 

Have you ever driven over that crest in a racing car?



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#252 Juan Kerr

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 00:08

Have you ever driven over that crest in a racing car?

and for that matter has Jann ever driven over that crest in any of the other racing cars on the track that day? The trouble with saying things like what you said New Britiain is that there's always the chance that Jann did something slightly careless as well as nothing wrong at all and completely out of his control. Perhaps this person is doing the right thing by considering both scenarios instead of some peoples single minded approach only looking to try and argue one reason for this crash and be partial.



#253 johnmhinds

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 03:02

Have you ever driven over that crest in a racing car?

What the heck has my driving experience got to do with it.

You we're claiming that him driving with excess speed caused the crash, and that is the default and most obvious position to take.

You'd be a terrible investigator if you're going to start assuming things when you clearly have zero evidence of them.

The only evidence we have are a hand full of YouTube videos that all show his car lifting into the air well before he crests the hill and comes into view. How are you judging his speed from those videos?

We don't know if excess speed, bad aerodynamics, broken components, or any numbers of other things were the cause of him taking off.

Edited by johnmhinds, 09 April 2015 - 03:10.


#254 New Britain

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 08:10

and for that matter has Jann ever driven over that crest in any of the other racing cars on the track that day? The trouble with saying things like what you said New Britiain is that there's always the chance that Jann did something slightly careless as well as nothing wrong at all and completely out of his control. Perhaps this person is doing the right thing by considering both scenarios instead of some peoples single minded approach only looking to try and argue one reason for this crash and be partial.

 

I agree that "there is always a chance". That chance is a small one, but it does exist.

We have been discussing this tragic incident and, with the benefit of some experience, I have been talking about what is clearly the most likely explanation. 

 

Jann has been through a terrible experience that will burden him for the rest of his life. All racing fans should feel sympathy for this young man.

 

It appears, however, that for some people their sympathy extends to the point where one is not permitted to say aloud that Jann's own actions may have catalysed the incident.

 

We all have made stupid mistakes in our lives, and certainly every racing driving has made stupid mistakes whilst driving. Usually, we are lucky enough that our stupid mistakes do not result in tragedy. On those rare occasions when our mistakes do result in tragedy, the answer is not to act as if it could not have been our own fault.

 

I hope that, in this case, the investigators will conclude that Jann's and the entrant's actions were entirely reasonable and had nothing to do with the outcome, but I think that is unlikely.



#255 hansmann

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 08:12

...

You we're claiming that him driving with excess speed caused the crash, and that is the default and most obvious position to take.

....

 

Noone is claiming it was driver's error, or otherwise judging Jann Mardenborough .

 

I got the feeling some people get very defensive and try to quell any discussion going in that direction; yet it's only prudent to look at all possible causes for the accident and its tragic result, and driver experience and skills are amongst those .

 

Personally, I think the investigators should take a long, hard look at the licensing procedures for GT racing, and GT Academy in particular , amongst other things of course .

But I'm not an expert by any means .



#256 New Britain

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 08:14

What the heck has my driving experience got to do with it.

You we're claiming that him driving with excess speed caused the crash, and that is the default and most obvious position to take.

You'd be a terrible investigator if you're going to start assuming things when you clearly have zero evidence of them.

The only evidence we have are a hand full of YouTube videos that all show his car lifting into the air well before he crests the hill and comes into view. How are you judging his speed from those videos?

We don't know if excess speed, bad aerodynamics, broken components, or any numbers of other things were the cause of him taking off.

 

Because if you had raced there you would have more perspective on what happens there, both in terms of the physics and in terms of the psychology of endurance racing at the 'Ring.

 

None of us here is being "an investigator", for goodness sake. This is not CSI Miami, and it is not a court of law. We're (presumably) racing fans discussing what may have happened in a tragic racing accident. We're allowed to have and to express opinions.



#257 johnmhinds

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 16:58

Because if you had raced there you would have more perspective on what happens there, both in terms of the physics and in terms of the psychology of endurance racing at the 'Ring.

 

None of us here is being "an investigator", for goodness sake. This is not CSI Miami, and it is not a court of law. We're (presumably) racing fans discussing what may have happened in a tragic racing accident. We're allowed to have and to express opinions.

 

Yeah but you have to have something behind those opinions.

 

You said: 

 

 

Yes, it could have been random (fluke gust of wind at precisely the wrong moment), but unless someone can demonstrate that his speed over the crest did not contribute to the flip, the operating assumption must be that it did contribute.

As I wrote above, it is indisputable that, if he had been going sufficiently slower, he would not have flipped.

 

You've already drawn your conclusions that excess speed was the mostly likely thing to have caused the crash without having any evidence available to you about what his speed was or if it was any higher than anyone else on the track.

 

We don't see him in any of the videos until he crests the hill already flying through the air.

 

 

You can't say anything is the operating assumption and the default position when it's not even visible or measurable in any of the video evidence we have seen.


Edited by johnmhinds, 09 April 2015 - 17:07.


#258 New Britain

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 22:42

Yeah but you have to have something behind those opinions.

 

You said: 

 

 

You've already drawn your conclusions that excess speed was the mostly likely thing to have caused the crash without having any evidence available to you about what his speed was or if it was any higher than anyone else on the track.

 

We don't see him in any of the videos until he crests the hill already flying through the air.

 

 

You can't say anything is the operating assumption and the default position when it's not even visible or measurable in any of the video evidence we have seen.

 

Perhaps inadvertently, you make my point for me. Because, it appears, you have no experience driving at the 'Ring, you seem to be unaware that, approaching the crest, the slope begins to reduce prior to the crest itself.

 

You say, correctly, that the front of the car is lifting off the road surface prior to the crest itself. The reason it is doing that is not because the car inexplicably has begun to launch itself skyward. Rather, it is because the road surface is falling away from the front tyres, and the inertial trajectory of a front-engine car at that speed prevents the tyres from immediately following the contour of the road surface.

 

 

My earlier comment, "it is indisputable that, if he had been going sufficiently slower, he would not have flipped", is in fact indisputable. Taking things to a ridiculous extreme, if he had approached that crest at 20mph, the car would not have flipped. You cannot seriously disagree with that statement.

 

One can speculate what the critical take-off speed might be. That is open to debate, and in addition to the road speed itself will also depend on the precise attitude of the car as it ascended the slope, i.e. whether excessive throttle inputs partway up the hill would have caused the nose to rise (in contrast to braking more deeply into the hill, which could result in the same speed over the crest but with the nose lower to the ground).

 

 

People can continue to insist that we don't know "with certainty" why the GT-R flipped. I accept that statement in its literal form.

 

I say that, although we don't know it with certainty, it is probable that what the driver did with that particular car (road speed, lifting or braking point, throttle inputs) at that particular place was a primary causal factor in that crash.

 

The (same) GT-R in the 2013 video nearly lifted off at that crest, and there were no mechanical problems with that car. Same for the SLS last year. It's what that crest tends to do to cars, especially front-engine cars, that attempt to ascend the crest too quickly.

 

That may be unpleasant for fans of young racing drivers to hear, but it is true.



#259 johnmhinds

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 23:03

 

 

I say that, although we don't know it with certainty, it is probable that what the driver did with that particular car (road speed, lifting or braking point, throttle inputs) at that particular place was a primary causal factor in that crash.

 

All you're saying is "Some sort of driving was involved in the racing car crashing" What a pointless statement to make.

 

And it's not factually accurate to keep pointing to his age or inexperience, given that as you say there is other video of it happening to another GT-R, it might just be a issue with the aerodynamics just like the CLR-GT1 incidents.

He could have been driving exactly the same as every other driver that day and his car may be to blame, we don't know yet.

 

Until some sort of investigation is concluded it's silly to point at his age or the cars speed and say they are the most probable causes.


Edited by johnmhinds, 09 April 2015 - 23:08.


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#260 ardbeg

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 23:04

Perhaps inadvertently, you make my point for me. Because, it appears, you have no experience driving at the 'Ring, you seem to be unaware that, approaching the crest, the slope begins to reduce prior to the crest itself.

I was just going to say exactly that...

In general, the 'Ring can not be compared to any modern track.



#261 ardbeg

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 23:12

All you're saying is "Some sort of driving was involved in the racing car crashing" What a pointless statement to make.

 

And not factually accurate, given that as you say there is other video of it happening to another GT-R, it might just be a issue with the aerodynamics just like the CLR-GT1 incidents.

 

He could have been driving exactly the same as every other driver that day and his car may be to blame.

 

Until some sort of investigation is concluded it's silly to point at his age or the cars speed and say they are the most probable causes.

I think he means that as the driver of the car, he also have a responsibility to know about the cars behaviour and limitations as well as of the risky zones at the 'Ring. It was an accident, I'm sure he did not want the car to flip, but it did. Maybe he had hit something before and damaged the aero, maybe there was some weird disturbance in the air, a wind gust, maybe he hit a ferret. Maybe he held the throttle just a little to deep.

 

When someone goes off in a corner it is much easier to say "he was going to fast" or "he was braking too late", but in this situation we can not say that. But we know that by far the most common cause for an accident is too much speed at the wrong place.



#262 New Britain

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 23:44

All you're saying is "Some sort of driving was involved in the racing car crashing" What a pointless statement to make.

 

And it's not factually accurate to keep pointing to his age or inexperience, given that as you say there is other video of it happening to another GT-R, it might just be a issue with the aerodynamics just like the CLR-GT1 incidents.

He could have been driving exactly the same as every other driver that day and his car may be to blame, we don't know yet.

 

Until some sort of investigation is concluded it's silly to point at his age or the cars speed and say they are the most probable causes.

 

What I was saying was that, as a driver, you have to make choices, and those choices have consequences. At the Nordschliefe, there are loads of accidents, and it is rare that a single-car accident is caused by something other than the driver's choices.

 

The other cars you mention did not flip. His car flipped.



#263 Juan Kerr

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 00:34

We firstly have the 'why did the car flip?' question. All anyone needs to find out regarding any blame is did Jann do anything different to anyone else of any significance and ask these two questions. Why if so do the other drivers lift before the peak? Why if so did Jann not lift in time for this going-light of the car on the peak? Two separate questions whose answers then combine to provide a judgement. We also have regarding the prevention of injury investigation the 'Why did someone get injured?' question in terms of where they had placed themselves. How much should the circuit take of the blame compared to the person deciding to stand/sit behind a heavily exposed not particularly high fence.

 



#264 johnmhinds

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 01:42

Maybe, before making "matter of fact" statements like "need to jump the fence" ; "Yeah you can't really stop this with aerodynamic parts on the front of the car" etc. - you want to consider heading your own advice, and not just jump to some conclusions. Lead by (good) example so to speak, before having a go at others.
Or are you just "trolling" a bit, in order to be able to keep arguing, just for arguments sake?

Pretty sure quoting people out of context make you the troll.

I said from the pictures that were posted it looked like you had to jump the shorter fence, someone said you could probably walk around it. No real conclusion there as you can't really see in those pics, would be nice to know from someone who has spectated there.

And my other comments on the speed and aerodynamics were during a discussion about the fence related to stopping the car from getting over the fence once it's in the air if you don't have space to build extra runoff, I didn't say he was driving any faster than anyone else or that only speed caused the crash.

If you don't want to build extra runoff then the only way to stop that from ever happening and protect the fans is to impose a speed limit on the hill/corner, or ban the fans from that area.

Edited by johnmhinds, 10 April 2015 - 01:52.


#265 jjcale

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 01:03

So Lazy you think if a driver gets it wrong its not their fault no matter what

what lazy thinking

you go round a corner too fast and spin even you have blamed the driver

no difference in cause only effect remove the spectators and let the drivers go as fast to hell as they want

but when fee paying spectators ( and that could be you too) be somewhere and as a sportsman its your responsibility to not endanger your fans not theirs to make sure you cant kill them 

 

I agree with you before but that is going too far now ..... drivers are not responsible for spectators



#266 jjcale

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Posted 19 April 2015 - 01:20

Although I was not at or in Saturday's VLN, I have raced in many VLN races, in pretty fast cars. If I may, I shall add a few thoughts.

 

The crest where the car took off is Quiddelbacher Hohe. It's not a gratuitous hump on the circuit, but rather it is a bridge with a road underneath that goes to the village of Quiddelbach. It would be possible to re-profile it, although that would require a good bit of engineering. They cannot just shave off the top of it in order to lower the crest. They could if they wanted fill in some of the preceding dip.

 

It is accepted practice by all drivers, including the very best, to lift at the end of the preceding dip, just before the road starts to ascend to the crest. In the video of the previous, near-incident (actually, in exactly the same racing car) in 2013, the voice of the commentator is that of Christian Menzel (Bob Wollek was unfortunately killed a number of years ago in a non-racing accident). Menzel is one of the absolute elite modern sports car drivers at the 'Ring, he lives in a village nearby and has driven many, many thousands of laps in competition. He was saying that you never come over Quiddelbacher Hohe without having lifted first.

 

The normal reason to lift there is not so much for fear of the car flying, but rather because, if you don't do something to get the car's speed down prior to entering the right-hander following the crest, you will never make it 'round that right hand bend. If you went full-tilt over that crest, you would be unable - at least repeatably - to get the car under sufficient control between the crest and the right hander. Therefore, as you must slow down for the right-hander, the right place to do it is before the crest.

 

No doubt the flat floor under the GT-R had a lot to do with the car's taking off. The interesting thing is that, in light of a similar thing nearly happening to the SLS in the other video, you'd say that these cars are front-engined with a forward weight bias, whereas AFAIK this sort of thing (near lift-off) has not happened in a 911 shape, although those cars have a more rearward weight bias and many of them also have flat floors. However, all fast cars do go light over the crest; almost always at least the front tyres will clear the ground, but rarely are the fronts much higher off the ground (1-4", normally; 6"would be a LOT) than are the rears.

 

After the same car had that hairy incident in '13 (the one on which Menzel was remarking), one would expect that the entrant of that specific car would have taken action to ensure that nothing of the kind could happen again....

 

Having said that, the health-and-safety attitude of spectators at the VLN (and 24 Hrs) is far more casual than what has become the norm in UK (or, indeed, at other German racing venues). There is a general presumption that what goes on at the 'Ring (not just the racing, but Touristenfahrten and Industry Pool as well) is of its own kind. To race there is perhaps a bit crazy, and to watch is perhaps the same. If this incident had taken place a few weeks later at the 24 Hrs, when the hillsides are heaving with spectators, many of whom are too drunk to speak straight, let alone to jump out of the way of a 100mph out-of-control car, the casualties could have been far, far worse.

 

The other point I would make is that the VLN races include many professional drivers, but VLN races are not professional races. The vast majority of entrants are private amateurs, there are huge speed disparities and even bigger driving skill disparities. To save maybe 0.2 of a second by not lifting at such a dodgy spot, in the course of an 8+ minute lap, does not make a lot of sense.

 

100% agree but you have also made the case that surely he must have at least lifted...no? obviously not enough, but its hard to imagine he went charging in without due regard (which is not exactly what you are saying but which is not excluded by what you are saying)



#267 Imperial

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 18:30

Today's Autosport (21st May) page 50 carries a quote from 'Ring Legend Klaus Ludwig' (their words) and that quote is "We can see from the data that the guy (Mardenborough) was going too fast".

Edited by Imperial, 21 May 2015 - 18:31.


#268 Risil

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 18:35

Was Mardenborough pushing the limit too much -- essentially as if he'd left the braking too late and crashed into the barriers?

 

Or is this a symptom of GT3 cars being too fast for the Nordschleife?

 

From the quote above I can't work out which Ludwig means.



#269 Imperial

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 18:49

That quote covers it, he doesn't expand on it other than to say he disagrees with the speed limits put in place since.

Prior to Ludwig entering in this article, Autosport (Stuart Codling) refers to previous changes to elevation having been made after Peter Dumbreck's flip in 1999.

The inference I read is he is saying Mardenborough was too fast approaching the crest, much as some have said within this thread.

#270 Myrvold

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 19:22

That is quite logical though. Either loss of downforce and the front or going to fast.



#271 Imperial

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 19:36

That is quite logical though. Either loss of downforce and the front or going to fast.


True.

I was quite surprised to read a professional going on record with such a comment. It's not often an active driver is openly effectively blamed for an incident of this severity.

I suppose then it begs the question what, at such a circuit as the 'Ring or Le Mans, is a flip 'just because' and what is a flip where the driver is truly to blame.

#272 KTownDevil

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 20:03

That is quite logical though. Either loss of downforce and the front or going to fast.

In the video of the Nissan getting air at the 2013 N24 Qualifying, Nordschleife veteran Christian Menzel nicely describes how to take the jump and that pushing to hard will obviously result in a flip. And to him it looked like Nissan pilot Thomas Schulze made a driver error by not lifting early enough.



#273 blackhand2010

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 20:04

Surely the speed is irrelevant to the death, though; yes, Mardenborough may well have crashed, but if that area of the 'ring had appropriate safety features in place, then it is less likely that the spectator would have died.

 

I'm afraid blaming speed, when one is taking about racing is absurd.

What if there had been brake failiure...? Or the throttle jammed open....?

The crash would still have happened, the spectator died, and the safety precautions at the circuit would still have been lacking.  



#274 Tapz63

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 20:09

The thing is it doesn't really matter if he was going too fast. It may weigh on his concious and make him more careful in the future but ultimately drivers make mistakes and always will so it is up to the circuit to make sure the cars do not injure the spectators.

#275 Imperial

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 20:13

Anyway...I don't have strong opinions on it, I can see all sides. Just wanted to add in a very important comment to the thread.

#276 New Britain

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 21:00

On the one hand, pretty much every racing driver, including every great racing driver, has made unforced errors, pushed that bit too hard and come unstuck. In that sense, one might say that that is all that Mardenborough was doing, and it was terrible luck that it happened where it did.

 

On the other hand, Ludwig also said, "You have to have respect. You have to change your mindset when you leave the GP track. You have to think, 'Now I am on the Nordschleife.'"

 

Unlike in even Formula One, on the Nordschliefe the top drivers always keep something in reserve. Unless there has been contact with another car, they don't go off.



#277 Spillage

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 21:17

On the one hand, pretty much every racing driver, including every great racing driver, has made unforced errors, pushed that bit too hard and come unstuck. In that sense, one might say that that is all that Mardenborough was doing, and it was terrible luck that it happened where it did.

 

On the other hand, Ludwig also said, "You have to have respect. You have to change your mindset when you leave the GP track. You have to think, 'Now I am on the Nordschleife.'"

 

Unlike in even Formula One, on the Nordschliefe the top drivers always keep something in reserve. Unless there has been contact with another car, they don't go off.

Exactly my thoughts. Maybe he was pushing too hard, but I don't think it really matters. Such an error ought to end up with the car in the barrier, not in the crowd.



#278 rhukkas

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 21:22

There should be NO circumstance when a car could go into the crowd. Was Jann going too fast? Doesn't matter, what if someone had a brake failure or a stuck throttle? The result would be the same regardless of driver input.