44 replies to this topic

[DaddyCool]

Both Force Indias got a 10 second penalty for causing a collision do you agree with the penalties?

 

I think both were ordinary racing incidents.

 

Kvyat shut the door on Hulk, while Perez and Grosjean made contact in a risky overtaking maneouver.

 

Whaddya think?

[MikeV1987]

Hulk's penalty was harsh, Perez fully deserved it.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Are drive through penalties completely banned by the way? Haven't seen one of those for a while. They usually now only give 5 or 10 second penalties, which drivers have to take at their pitstop.

Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 29 March 2015 - 15:53.

[ninetyzero]

Perez always deserves it. Has he ever owned up to a mistake?

[Jon83]

Hulk was unlucky and I'm not convinced Perez should have been penalised either.

 

Seemed like a pretty soul-destroying day to be a Force India fan. If they weren't get penalties, they were either holding a queue of cars up or being overtaken. 

[Raikkonen94]

Perez has always been a very bad wheel-to-wheel driver. Today and last race's incident with Button further confirms that. And still every time he gets a penalty he is fully convinced it wasn't his fault. Hulkenberg's penalty was a bit too harsh in my opinion.

[scheivlak]

Are drive through penalties completely banned by the way? 

Yes.

[cpbell]

Hulk was unlucky and I'm not convinced Perez should have been penalised either.

 

Seemed like a pretty soul-destroying day to be a Force India fan. If they weren't get penalties, they were either holding a queue of cars up or being overtaken. 

Agreed.  Hulkenberg seemed minimally responsible to me, and, having initially considered Kvyat at fauly for the collision with Perez, I altered my opinion after the replays to it being 50:50 - one driver was trying to complete a risky move and ought to have backed-out, but the other placed him in a "back out or we crash, I'm not giving you any room at all" position.

Edited by cpbell, 29 March 2015 - 16:16.

[MikeV1987]

Perez has always been a very bad wheel-to-wheel driver. Today and last race's incident with Button further confirms that. And still every time he gets a penalty he is fully convinced it wasn't his fault. Hulkenberg's penalty was a bit too harsh in my opinion.

He has the potential to be a good racer, he just drives like an ass tbh.

[Sanzx81]

Perez deserved it

[Collective]

Neither. I'm With Coulthard on both assessments. Kvyat turns in like Hulk would just vanish, while Hulk tried to back out as much as he could.

Perez was on the racing line, on the limit in that place, Grosjean is passing on the outside, barely ahead, on a risky move. Are you just expected to relinquish position from the racing line to the guy on the outside, in that section? Give me a break.

Horrible stewarding today if you ask me.

[Kulturen]

Wow, I completely disagree with most here, in that I feel the opposite. Hulk deserved it and for Perez it was more on the harsh side.

 

Obviously Hulk didn't mean it but he should have known better there. No one "closed the door" on him. Kvyat was ahead, where was he supposed to go, not turn? There was no sapce there and Hulk should know better.

 

Perez for me, the other driver went to the outside and on a corner like that you can claim he could have left him more space but it's hard to not let your car drift wide. Passing on the outside there was a risky move and you should accept the risk imo.

[Kulturen]

Neither. I'm With Coulthard on both assessments. Kvyat turns in like Hulk would just vanish, while Hulk tried to back out as much as he could.

Perez was on the racing line, on the limit in that place, Grosjean is passing on the outside, barely ahead, on a risky move. Are you just expected to relinquish position from the racing line to the guy on the outside, in that section? Give me a break.

Horrible stewarding today if you ask me.

 

I completely agree with what you wrote regarding the Perez crash, that's how I saw it as well as I just wrote above.

 

On Hulk though : 

 

Hulk tried to back out as much as he could

 

I disagree there. To me, Hulk didn't try to back off anywhere NEAR enough, almost not at all when it was obvious he had lost the place. That's why I blame him for it. It's not that I think he meant to stick his nose in there, just that it was clear that he should have backed off and it was on him to avoid the contact and he didn't.

Edited by Kulturen, 29 March 2015 - 16:04.

[Nemick]

I feel they both deserved their respective penalties. Both seemed to act rather rashly, in my opinion.

[DCComics]

Neither. I'm With Coulthard on both assessments. Kvyat turns in like Hulk would just vanish, while Hulk tried to back out as much as he could.

Perez was on the racing line, on the limit in that place, Grosjean is passing on the outside, barely ahead, on a risky move. Are you just expected to relinquish position from the racing line to the guy on the outside, in that section? Give me a break.

Horrible stewarding today if you ask me.

Yeah. Kvyat made a similar move against perez in germany, and there was no penalty for either of them. And grosjeans move was risky. The result was nothing more than a racing incident.

With Hulk there is an example of stewarding inconsistency.
And just because Checo gets in a lot of incidentes deos not mean it's his fault always.

[ANF]

Pérez: You could see it coming. Not a good place to try to fight back, so Pérez's fault. Penalty was okay, maybe five seconds had been enough.
Hülkenberg: Looks like Kvyat wasn't expecting him because of Hülkenberg's lockup. 50/50 fault, no penalty deserved.

[DaddyCool]

Well I think just because you're backing out you don't have to slam on the brakes in order to let the other guy through as conveniently as he pleases.

 

Kvyat could have very easily taken a wider line AND have the position, instead he shut the door completely on Hulkenberg.

Edited by DaddyCool, 29 March 2015 - 16:31.

[maximilian]

Hülkenberg's is incomprehensible.  Perez less so, but the fewer penalties for genuine racing incidents, the better.  I'm sick and tired of drivers getting penalized almost each and every time there is a collision.  This is auto racing, collisions happen in the heat of the battle, and while it may be more one driver's fault than the other, it doesn't warrant a penalty just because.  Penalties are appropriate in situations of unsportsmanlike and/or dangerous conduct, which clearly wasn't the case in these two incidents.  The stewards really need to sod off sometimes and stay out of the racing.

[Jon83]

Hülkenberg's is incomprehensible.  Perez less so, but the fewer penalties for genuine racing incidents, the better.  I'm sick and tired of drivers getting penalized almost each and every time there is a collision.  This is auto racing, collisions happen in the heat of the battle, and while it may be more one driver's fault than the other, it doesn't warrant a penalty just because.  Penalties are appropriate in situations of unsportsmanlike and/or dangerous conduct, which clearly wasn't the case in these two incidents.  The stewards really need to sod off sometimes and stay out of the racing.

 

Makes you wonder what the 'driver steward' actually contributes towards the decision-making. 

[JTSaika]

Ofcourse Perez deserved it, He's Sergio Perez!.. Why even have a poll... ?

I heard someone crashed on a Motorway a few minutes after the race started also; Clearly Maldonado's fault too. 

Edited by JTSaika, 29 March 2015 - 19:32.

[mangeliiito]

Wasn't it Alonso who said that some who soeak up in the driver breifing get punished harder for their mistakes? In that case Hulk sure speaks a lot, considering all the harsh penalties he got over the years...

[bub]

I wouldn't have given any penalty for either incident.

Kvyat/Hulk seemed like a racing incident. Hulk could have backed out, Kvyat could have left room, racing incident.

Grosjean/Perez also seemed like a racing incident. I think Grosjean was more at fault for attempting such a risky, overly optimistic move but he was punished enough by spinning.

[charly0418]

I think they were both 60-40. With both Perez and Hulk with a little more blame

 

On Hulk incident I think he was too far back to go on the inside, but then again Kvyat could have just taken the outside line and he would have been fine.

On Perez like some have said here he was on the racing line on a part of the track where theres really nowhere else to go, Grosjean was a bit too optimistic to overtake there. That corner you have to really commit to it and its not a corner you slow down halfway

 

 

Either way I think both Hulk and Perez were trying to do to much with an incredible shitty car, you could tell they were frustrated and pushing as much as they could. Force India need to get their **** together and give both drivers something to fight with

[redreni]

I thought the Kvyat/Hulk one was a racing incident which was self-penalising for both drivers and didn't require any sanction but, if I had to give a penalty for it, based on the angles I've seen, I would give the decision the other way. I didn't think Hulk was out of control or that he wasn't going to make the corner. I thought he had a significant part of his car alongside and was owed space on the inside of the track.

 

I thought the Grosjean/Perez one was arguable. It was a risky move. There's a case for saying it's 50/50, or even giving that one the other way too. Ultimately, though, by the letter of the law I think the stewards have a case, because Grosjean was alongside, he was on the outside kerb coming out of the left hander, and Perez is supposed to leave him a car's width.

 

To be honest, with a driver like Perez who would hope to have many seasons in F1 still ahead of him, if he backed off there and let people squeeze him that much and drive around the outside of him, that would just encourage other people to take similar liberties in the future. It's one of those where Grosjean just left it entirely up to Perez to prevent contact, and frankly I think his approach of not avoiding contact and taking a rap on the knuckles from the stewards is better than just rolling out the red carpet and allowing people through as easily as Grosjean seemed to expect to be let through in that instance.

[Ragingjamaican]

Don't think either of them deserved it, despite me being critical of Perez's driving, I don't think you can 100% blame him for that incident.

 

Looked to me as if Kvyat just turned into Hulkenberg and not realising that he was there, while Hulkenberg saw a legit passing oppurtunity on both Red Bulls only to get hit.

 

Grosjean trying that on the outside when Perez was very risky, kudos to him for trying it, and kudos to Perez for trying to stick it out, looked as if both went into it in do-or-die mode.

[ANF]

I might have to rethink Pérez's penalty. I was certain that we've seen quite a few passes like the one Grosjean tried to pull off, but now I realize that I might have confused T12–13 with T5–6.

[selespeed]

_{so if Rosberg stayed on track last year in Bahrain and Hamilton bumped him off track Lewis would be penalized??}

[Gareth]

Right decision for Perez, IMO.  He seems to think there was nothing he could do.  For him, lifting off the right hand peddle or pressing the left hand one is not an option.  Doesn't matter if the other car is ahead of him, he's taking the racing line and pushing them off track and it's their fault for being near him.

 

Wrong decision for Hulkenberg, IMO.  I thought he was far enough alongside to deserve a car's width on the apex.

 

_{so if Rosberg stayed on track last year in Bahrain and Hamilton bumped him off track Lewis would be penalized??}

 

No because Rosberg was slightly behind Hamilton, whereas Grosjean was ahead of Perez.

[selespeed]

i am pretty sure Rosberg was ahead at some point...

[itsnoe30]

Perez deserved it, Gro was ahead. Hulk didn't deserve it.

[selespeed]

but....but...kvyat was ahead....

[Gareth]

but....but...kvyat was ahead....

Different approaches from the stewards for outside vs inside.

 

Outside - you need to be ahead to get a car's width.

 

Inside - you only need to be halfway alongside (or better) to get a car's width.

[Exb]

Are drive through penalties completely banned by the way? Haven't seen one of those for a while. They usually now only give 5 or 10 second penalties, which drivers have to take at their pitstop.

Yes.

No they are not banned - it depends on how serious the steward deem the incident to be - obviously a drive through is the equivent of about a 20 second penalty so a more serious infringement would get a drive through

Rules are here:http://www.fia.com/R...hampionship-110 (sporting regs)
16.3 The stewards may impose any one of the penalties below on any driver involved in an Incident:
a) A five second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop in his pit stop position for at least five seconds and then re-join the race. The relevant driver may however elect not to stop, provided he carries out no further pit stop before the end of the race. In such cases five seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.
b) A ten second time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop in his pit stop position for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race. The relevant driver may however elect not to stop, provided he carries out no further pit stop before the end of the race. In such cases ten seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned.
In both of the above cases the driver concerned must carry out the penalty the next time he enters the pit lane.
c) A drive-through penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane and re-join the race without stopping.
d) A ten second stop-and-go time penalty. The driver must enter the pit lane, stop in his pit stop position for at least ten seconds and then re-join the race.
If either of the four penalties above are imposed during the last three laps, or after the end of a race, Article 16.4(b) below will not apply and five seconds will be added to the elapsed race time of the driver concerned in the case of (a) above, 10 seconds in the case of (b), 20 seconds in the case of © and 30 seconds in the case of (d).
e) A time penalty.
f) A reprimand.
If any of the six penalties above are imposed they shall not be subject to appeal.
g) A drop of any number of grid positions at the driver’s next Event.
h) Deletion of a driver’s qualifying lap time or times.
i) Exclusion from the results.
j) Suspension from the driver’s next Event.

[metz]

As DC said, the Hulkenberg call was completely unjustified. Even Kvyat admits; "I didn't expect him there. It was a racing incident".

Hulkenberg shrugged it off as a bad call.

Why would the stewards even review the incident if there is no protest?

[AustinF1]

Of course, as always, these incidents highlight the need for traveling stewards. 

 

Drivers simply don't know what they can expect to be allowed to do legally do from one race to another. Enforcement of the rules is atrociously inconsistent.

[Collective]

Of course, as always, these incidents highlight the need for traveling stewards. 

 

Drivers simply don't know what they can expect to be allowed to do legally do from one race to another. Enforcement of the rules is atrociously inconsistent.

They were particularly over the top here. I actually think that in the 2nd half of 2014 they were pretty good, right after the announcement that they were going to stop penalties for every little thing. Yesterday was a leap backwards. 

[Exb]

They were particularly over the top here. I actually think that in the 2nd half of 2014 they were pretty good, right after the announcement that they were going to stop penalties for every little thing. Yesterday was a leap backwards.

Agreed - the 2nd half of last year these incidents would probably have been put down to racing incidents. Even if the stewards did deem the Force India drivers to be at fault, and applied a penalty as the other cars suffered a time loss due to a spin, to then give both Force India drivers 2 penalty points as well seems totally over the top

[Buttoneer]

 

Right decision for Perez, IMO.  He seems to think there was nothing he could do.  For him, lifting off the right hand peddle or pressing the left hand one is not an option.  Doesn't matter if the other car is ahead of him, he's taking the racing line and pushing them off track and it's their fault for being near him.

 

Wrong decision for Hulkenberg, IMO.  I thought he was far enough alongside to deserve a car's width on the apex.

 

 

No because Rosberg was slightly behind Hamilton, whereas Grosjean was ahead of Perez.

 

Yep.  Or "+1" in old parlance.  I don't know that I would have done much more than reprimand Perez but he was not entitled to just take the racing line when another car is in front of him like that.

[CoolBreeze]

I'm not sure about Hulk's penalty, but whenever there's a penalty dished out to Perez or Loldonado, i'd like to think they fully deserve it. 

[DCComics]

Those two seemed to be having a bad time on track. I suppose it is because of the slow car.

[toniovodka]

im going to blame the car, its so slow that checo and hulk have to take a lot of risks to keep their position, and i dont think any of them deserved the penalty, you can´t drive like if you are the only one in the track, its not a videogame

Edited by toniovodka, 31 March 2015 - 20:13.

[DS27]

Hulkenberg penalty was a joke. Problem is, it's not a funny one.

[DCComics]

im going to blame the car, its so slow that checo and hulk have to take a lot of risks to keep their position, and i dont think any of them deserved the penalty, you can´t drive like if you are the only one in the track, its not a videogame

I'm picturing Jeremy Clarkson leaning forward repeatedly against the steering wheel of his car in an attempt to make it go faster...

[Buttoneer]

im going to blame the car, its so slow that checo and hulk have to take a lot of risks to keep their position, and i dont think any of them deserved the penalty, you can´t drive like if you are the only one in the track, its not a videogame

Probably a contributory factor, but not an excuse, really.

[DCComics]

Probably a contributory factor, but not an excuse, really.

That's true, in the end, the best they can do is attempt to bring results with what they have.