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Accident and fatality at the Nurburgring Nordschleife


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#1 Magoo

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 19:07

What can be done? DIscuss. 

 

 

http://www.motorspor...-fatal-accident



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#2 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 March 2015 - 23:54

A car with an aero fault it would appear.

The people injured where in a no go zone.

This has happened at Lemans multiple times,, Mark Webber twice in one race meet. They did not ban the racing then.

There is really not a lot that can be done,, keeping people out of no go zones ofcourse. Otherwise lets all race on flat boring Tilke Domes.

The catch fence with cable largely did its job, and the driver got out relatively ok.



#3 NeilR

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 01:31

pretty basic fan protection there.



#4 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:07

A car with an aero fault it would appear.

 

Or too fast/too much throttle over the crest?



#5 kikiturbo2

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:13

One of the attractions of the "Ring" is the incredible closeness of the guard rails to the track.. it is almost like a street circuit at most places, and the bumps and elevation changes are frequent and quite tricky in some places... As a fan you can get real close to the action which is great,... Unfortunately, this  carries risk of incidents like this and in retrospect the exclusion zone in this spot should have been greater..



#6 gruntguru

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 02:40

I have been trying to think of a technical solution - no doubt there are some ideas out there.

 

Perhaps an active air dam that extends downwards as the front suspension droops?



#7 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 03:21

Or too fast/too much throttle over the crest?

That too!



#8 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 23:06

Looking at that again it appears that the front lifts and the wing being so far back causes the car to 'rotate' 

And answers to that I have none. Moving the wing forward may help, and slow the car everywhere else.

Some of the other cars too seem to be lifting a small amount though coming over a rise will lift all vehicles to some degree.

Though we hear how good the aero is and that they could drive upside down etc. Yes I know more F1 but the aero is not sucking the car too the ground in this instance



#9 imaginesix

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 01:13

Or too fast/too much throttle over the crest?

Well that's always going to happen. The flipping onto it's roof part is a optional design element, in a way. AKA flaw.

 

Scary to say so, but I pretty much agree with Lee on this one. Don't put crowds in a run off area.


Edited by imaginesix, 31 March 2015 - 01:14.


#10 Greg Locock

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 01:30

Almost any normal shape will tend to flip if the nose pitches up, the cp moves forward, increasing the pitching moment about the rear axle, both by an increase in force, and in moment arm.

 

You can try to get around this by appropriate selection of spring rates and keeping damper friction low, but if your unsprung mass is low, it doesn't work .



#11 gruntguru

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 02:26

. . . Some of the other cars too seem to be lifting a small amount though coming over a rise will lift all vehicles to some degree.

Though we hear how good the aero is and that they could drive upside down etc. Yes I know more F1 but the aero is not sucking the car too the ground in this instance

GE aero is more prone to the flipping phenomenon - a very small amount of lift results in a very large loss of downforce.

 

Wings are essentially immune, being affected primarily by AOA. Air dams probably somewhere in between.



#12 jcbc3

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 08:02

GE aero is more prone to the flipping phenomenon - a very small amount of lift results in a very large loss of downforce.
 
Wings are essentially immune, being affected primarily by AOA. Air dams probably somewhere in between.


to wit (same corner)::

 

http://www.bing.com/...744E0EEC6DDDE38



#13 Catalina Park

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 08:56

Manfred Winkelhock had a damaged front wing when he crashed back then.
I wonder if the Nissan may have had a problem that upset the balance? 



#14 gruntguru

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 00:54

Perhaps they will consider re-profiling that bump?



#15 Catalina Park

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 07:41

They have already re-profiled over the years which has made that part of the track faster.
I think making the hump higher would probably be safer, if you know the car was going to fly every time the drivers would have to back off.

#16 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 09:24

I don't think you've ever met a modern/young racing driver...



#17 funformula

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 10:49

What makes me wonder is that a Touring Car is able to flip because of "wrong" air under the car.

It makes sense in the Winkelhock case, a 500kg car with most of the weight at the rear with a large underfloor generating drag.

But what must have happened in the Nissan case? Never seen a Touring car flip while jumping over a hump, be it in Rallye or at the Nordschleife. They may get light on the front axle, they may jump but they won´t flip.

Any infos about that Nissan, maybe is it a mid engined car well under 1000kg?



#18 Catalina Park

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 10:59

I don't think you've ever met a modern/young racing driver...

I used to be one thirty years ago. (I won an encouragement award!)

Spoiled brats they are these days, all gravel traps and run off areas, not like in my day with wooden fences, trees, rock walls and other things to hit.

In some cases when they make a track safer they inadvertently make it faster which means that the accidents now happen at a higher speed which makes it more dangerous.



#19 Ristin

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 15:20

Contrary to popular believe abroad the area between the two fences is NOT a no-go area at many places around the Nürburgring. I believe it was also allowed to sit or stand right behind the FIA fence at the crash site. If it is smart to be there is another question, but usually visitors will assume spectator areas are reasonable safe.
But it doesn't matter much anyways as the Nissan jumped both fences and cartwheeled in the wide public area behind both fences. The second video that has been withdrawn by Youtube, clearly shows it. The position the car ended in lets everyone assume that it never cleared the small fence, but thats obviously not true.
At the same weekend the Glickenhaus car lifted the front at the ultra-fast Schwedenkreuz hump. And remember that 2013 another Nisssan GT-R almost backflipped at Flugplatz, the exact site of the Madenborough crash. To me it looks like the Nordschleife and the current GT aero rules don't mix well.

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#20 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 23:38

From what I have read here and elsewhere it appears the spectator area was closed off on the exit of the corner where the car largely went. If people were sitting in that area or between the debris fence and the waist high no mans land fence they were stupid. 

Meaning better spectator control is required. Not the be all and end all resolution but short of making the spectators 30m back will resolve most issues. Though not nesecarily the ideal view for them!



#21 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 23:44

What makes me wonder is that a Touring Car is able to flip because of "wrong" air under the car.

It makes sense in the Winkelhock case, a 500kg car with most of the weight at the rear with a large underfloor generating drag.

But what must have happened in the Nissan case? Never seen a Touring car flip while jumping over a hump, be it in Rallye or at the Nordschleife. They may get light on the front axle, they may jump but they won´t flip.

Any infos about that Nissan, maybe is it a mid engined car well under 1000kg?

Hardly a Touring Car. Just a silohette racer. Though proper production based Touring cars have been crashing for decades on this sort of undulation. Bathurst with its last hump on Conrod straight has seen a few accidents and a lot of scares over the years. Though never any backflips like this.



#22 Ristin

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 08:50

Contrary to what is written "here and elsewhere" we actually have no reason to believe that area was closed off. I havn't been there on the day of the accident, but usually it has not been closed off on race days. Don't judge by your experience with spectator fences on other tracks. The Nordschleife is quite unique.
You can't move the spectators back for 30 meters, as that would put them into a forest.

Edited by Ristin, 03 April 2015 - 08:50.


#23 funformula

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Posted 03 April 2015 - 17:23

Hardly a Touring Car. Just a silohette racer. Though proper production based Touring cars have been crashing for decades on this sort of undulation. Bathurst with its last hump on Conrod straight has seen a few accidents and a lot of scares over the years. Though never any backflips like this.

 

I bet Touring Cars crashed at the Nuerburgring in any usual and unusual manner...and probably also in some kind of way one had never heard of  ;)  but I don´t think that a backflip "out of the blue" happened before.

Regarding the safety of the spectator area, the wall where the spectators were standing is probably 4 meters ahead of the track surface plus the fence. That makes around 8 meters to the top of the fence which is more than on many other tracks. The reason for the tragic outcome was the car getting airborne generating forces no one can foresee.

 

I remember a F3 crash in Hockenheim a few years ago when a car got airborne too and it was sheer luck that it didn´t went over the safety fence...and the run-off area there was veeeeery large.



#24 MatsNorway

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 22:06

I never understood why massive GTs of today has to be so damn light. Thats touring car territory. 1300kg. 2L NA.

 

GT? V8s of double the size if not V12s V10s at 5-6L Also the GTs is bigger in size in most directions. GT racing is kinda amputated today.. Vipers are running near idle in order to get any power from the tiny restrictors. I guess we can blame dodge too for making a kinda stupid car. (bit cool none the less)

 

Anyway.. Its a speed issue. Touring cars never reach anything close to 300km't in modern racing on tracks like this. GTs do with their near double hp and higher corner exit speeds.

 

Just move the spectator area further back. If it is in the forest thats perfect.. Spectators are safe behind trees. Or they will not bother to be there. And to be honest. It is a freak accident. Rare with spectator accidents on racetracks. For comparison you see near deadly accidents in rally far too often.

 

I am a huge fan of how pikes peak did it last year. Since spectators clearly are idiots on average they simply closed the entire track and had a few controlled areas up in the mountain. Thats how you save a allready dangerous race from being closed.


Edited by MatsNorway, 11 April 2015 - 20:52.


#25 ardbeg

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 13:38

What can be done? DIscuss. 

 

 

http://www.motorspor...-fatal-accident

Trenches? "Down, incoming!"
Yes, a joke, but partly serious. I have seen many near misses (mostly on youtube) and what happens is that the spectators have nowhere to go or they do not know where to go and try to run away from the car. It does not work because the car moves much faster. If the could jump down into a meter deep ditch they would be quite safe. Of course, jumping down one meter is not for everyone, but if it's there you are mentally prepared and if you can not prepare, then you should seek a safer place.



#26 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 04:57

I have read in the media today that they are going to impose a speed limit on sections of the track.

To me this is dumb and probably dangerous too.

Crowd control is No1. Get the spectators away from where the cars may crash!

 

After that aero changes,,, though I have no idea how. Though I am sure many real experts probably do. If that incurs some extra drag so be it.Slightly slower cars should be a safer.



#27 Ristin

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 09:20

I dare say the decisions seem to be driven by the wish to allow GT3 cars participating in this year's 24 h race. That is the class where the big money is and companies like Audi, Bentley, Nissan, BMW are involved.
So time was very crucial in making a decision. Remember that the qualification race for the 24h is held in only three days! You can hardly change the aero regs five days before the race, thats just not practical. (Not even talking about the problem of interfering with international homologation rules for the benefit of just one race.)
GPS-tracked speed limits are in use on the Nordschleife for some years now to protect the marshalls at crash sites. As they can esaily be implented it was a logical decision to take. (Please note this does not mean I agree with it!)

For all of you who have not read it yet: on tuesday a "round table" lead by the DMSB decided to:
- impose speed limits of 200 km/h at Flugplatz and Schwedenkreuz, and 250 km/h at the end of Döttinger Höhe
- make no-go areas for spectators at Flugplatz, Schwedenkreuz, Metzgesfeld and Pflanzgarten
- reduce the power of the fastest cars (whatever that means) by 5 %
- install an experts panel to decide on medium-term actions to be taken

Edited by Ristin, 09 April 2015 - 09:23.


#28 desmo

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 17:34

Is there any precedent for speed limits on racetracks under green flag?  Sounds completely nutty, and antithetical to racing, to me.



#29 Catalina Park

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 19:50

V8 Supercars have a built in speed limit at Bathurst. They have a fixed gear ratio and an engine rev limiter, so once the hit the limiter they just drive in a convoy at the same speed.



#30 Magoo

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 01:20

Is there any precedent for speed limits on racetracks under green flag?  Sounds completely nutty, and antithetical to racing, to me.

 

It's been de facto in superspeedway oval racing for a while, but as you say seems totally daft in GT road racing . 



#31 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 10 April 2015 - 23:20

V8 Supercars have a built in speed limit at Bathurst. They have a fixed gear ratio and an engine rev limiter, so once the hit the limiter they just drive in a convoy at the same speed.

Yes, but they seldom get on the limiter in the race. Normally they need a good 'tow' to do so.



#32 Ristin

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 15:55

On Friday evening the organiser of the 24h race explained the new restrictions in detail.

 

Speed limits:

The speed limit zone at Flugplatz (200 km/h) will start at the point on track where the fastest cars achieve 200 km/h accelerating out of Hatzenbach. So no driver will be forced to brake or reduce his speed. (To determine this exact point on track the organizers will evaluate team data.) After having passed Flugplatz the cars are allowed to accelerate up to 250 km/h until Schwedenkreuz.  A similar procedere ist applied at Döttinger Höhe. From the point where the fastest cars achieve 250 km/h to the bridge at Antioniusbuche there will be a speed limit of 250 km/h.

A flashing white signal and a speed limit sign will mark the start of the limitied zones, a green signal will mark it's end. There is no "yellow" applied, slower cars can be overtaken.

The speed limit will be controlled by race control via GPS.

Pit lane will be limited to 30 km/h (it was 60 km/h up to now)

 

Spectator areas:

At Flugplatz spectators won't be allowed any nearer than 15 meters to the FIA-fence. The whole of Schwedenkreuz is a  no-go zone. At Metzgesfeld spectators are only allowed in the forest. Leading to Schwalbenschwanz, there will also be a no-go zone (no explanation given as to it's size).

 

Engine power reduction:

The engine power of all competing cars will be reduced by 5 %, using smaller air restrictors. Responsability is within the teams. The organizers will use  data loggers and compare with existing data.

 

As far as I understand these decisions are in effect until further notice for all DMSB sanctioned races on the Nordschleife. Committees have been founded to look for better solutions that might be in effect for the 2016 season.


Edited by Ristin, 11 April 2015 - 15:58.


#33 desmo

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 23:14

As much as speed limits seem wrong, were I in their place I might do the same.



#34 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 23:45

On Friday evening the organiser of the 24h race explained the new restrictions in detail.

 

Speed limits:

The speed limit zone at Flugplatz (200 km/h) will start at the point on track where the fastest cars achieve 200 km/h accelerating out of Hatzenbach. So no driver will be forced to brake or reduce his speed. (To determine this exact point on track the organizers will evaluate team data.) After having passed Flugplatz the cars are allowed to accelerate up to 250 km/h until Schwedenkreuz.  A similar procedere ist applied at Döttinger Höhe. From the point where the fastest cars achieve 250 km/h to the bridge at Antioniusbuche there will be a speed limit of 250 km/h.

A flashing white signal and a speed limit sign will mark the start of the limitied zones, a green signal will mark it's end. There is no "yellow" applied, slower cars can be overtaken.

The speed limit will be controlled by race control via GPS.

Pit lane will be limited to 30 km/h (it was 60 km/h up to now)

 

Spectator areas:

At Flugplatz spectators won't be allowed any nearer than 15 meters to the FIA-fence. The whole of Schwedenkreuz is a  no-go zone. At Metzgesfeld spectators are only allowed in the forest. Leading to Schwalbenschwanz, there will also be a no-go zone (no explanation given as to it's size).

 

Engine power reduction:

The engine power of all competing cars will be reduced by 5 %, using smaller air restrictors. Responsability is within the teams. The organizers will use  data loggers and compare with existing data.

 

As far as I understand these decisions are in effect until further notice for all DMSB sanctioned races on the Nordschleife. Committees have been founded to look for better solutions that might be in effect for the 2016 season.

The problem with all this is it will be a **** fight with monitored electronics that are often less than satisfactory. IF they had such faith in their monitoring an  instruction to roll out of the throttle before the crests would be more sensible. 

Almost certainly the Nissan did not lift,, though if the rest of the field does not either it makes you less competitive. Though a LOT safer!

Spectators hiding in the forest should be a lot safer. A if a car gets there it should be a lot slower B The trees should shelter the spectators. I do not know how visible the track will be though!

30k [compared with 60] pit limit will be a problem though, will the cars go that slow?  There may be cars stalling in pitlane. That should be interesting.