3971 replies to this topic

[TheDoctor]

I couldn't find anyone else having started a topic on the new Ferrari challenger. Apologies if it does exist.

 

I have read recently that the orientation of the PU components and one of the major keys to the success of Merc is now understood; however the reason for the big push from Ferrari and RB to extended the development deadline was simply because they knew they wouldn't have enough time to get the system built before the current Feb deadline. 

 

Therefore the teams really have a difficult decision ahead of them; do they:

- Start with a very unreliable PU which the architecture of the Merc system and upgrade on reliability grounds throughout the year, or

- Don't adopt the Merc layout for 2015 due to time constraints and simply make the existing system as reliable and powerful as possible even though this will fall short of Merc

 

It all comes down to the regulations for 2016 and whether we will be abandoning the current power units or not.

If we are going to abandon the current engine regs better to go with option 2 and pick up as many points as possible during 2015.

 

Politics is ruling F1 as usual. 

 

Good to hear that Seb is spending the whole month at Maranello. His worth ethic wont be the reason he doesn't achieve success if the trophy's don't come.

[CrucialXtreme]

Pull rod was not exactly a success. Not too many ideas came through though.

The pull rod front suspension wasn't a failure. Had Fernando not been in one of two wrecks(Spa & Japan) he would've won the WDC with the pull rod front suspension.

The pull rod front suspension was introduced by Fry just to do it and so that he/the team could claim some type of innovation. It had been tested at McLaren while he was there but they never decided to go with it. It was sort of his "pet project" and 2012 was the perfect year for him to introduce it somewhere.

I'm not saying it was a huge success but it definitely wasn't a failure. It was just a suspension to me, nothing that wasn't ever done before. Different at the time but it was no F-Duct or DDD. It wasn't as innovative or risky as Renault's FFE during the blown diffuser days that James Allison was responsible for. It didn't work as expected but it was definitely innovative and very risky. Hopefully Allison will continue to try different things apart from the rest of the grid, even if they fail to work.

[CrucialXtreme]

Speaking of the pull rod front suspension, Auto Bild Motorsport says the 2015 Ferrari will have front pull rod like the 2012, 13 & 14 cars.

[kosmos]

Speaking of the pull rod front suspension, Auto Bild Motorsport says the 2015 Ferrari will have front pull rod like the 2012, 13 & 14 cars.

Lol, Too bad the alo vs kimi topic is closed.

[S3baman]

The pull rod front suspension wasn't a failure. Had Fernando not been in one of two wrecks(Spa & Japan) he would've won the WDC with the pull rod front suspension.

The pull rod front suspension was introduced by Fry just to do it and so that he/the team could claim some type of innovation. It had been tested at McLaren while he was there but they never decided to go with it. It was sort of his "pet project" and 2012 was the perfect year for him to introduce it somewhere.

I'm not saying it was a huge success but it definitely wasn't a failure. It was just a suspension to me, nothing that wasn't ever done before. Different at the time but it was no F-Duct or DDD. It wasn't as innovative or risky as Renault's FFE during the blown diffuser days that James Allison was responsible for. It didn't work as expected but it was definitely innovative and very risky. Hopefully Allison will continue to try different things apart from the rest of the grid, even if they fail to work.

 

Given Ferrari's current predicament, they need experimentation. Simply waiting for RBR or Merc or Williams to come up new ideas and then copy them will not bring them back to winning way.

 

I think that in this regard, Allison has a good track record of not sticking to the most obvious solutions and trying different approaches. The big questions will be if JA is given the freedom to try these ideas within the Ferrari environment, which as it has been discussed already in this thread, was quite hierarchical. Tombazis pretty much had final say in everything, hence the steady decline since 2007 imo

[Ze Bum]

Speaking of the pull rod front suspension, Auto Bild Motorsport says the 2015 Ferrari will have front pull rod like the 2012, 13 & 14 cars.

 

 

Then why is there a push rod in the picture?

[HPT]

Then why is there a push rod in the picture?

 

Because that is not the actual 2015 car? 

[RedRabbit]

The pull rod front suspension wasn't a failure. Had Fernando not been in one of two wrecks(Spa & Japan) he would've won the WDC with the pull rod front suspension.

The pull rod front suspension was introduced by Fry just to do it and so that he/the team could claim some type of innovation. It had been tested at McLaren while he was there but they never decided to go with it. It was sort of his "pet project" and 2012 was the perfect year for him to introduce it somewhere.

I'm not saying it was a huge success but it definitely wasn't a failure. It was just a suspension to me, nothing that wasn't ever done before. Different at the time but it was no F-Duct or DDD. It wasn't as innovative or risky as Renault's FFE during the blown diffuser days that James Allison was responsible for. It didn't work as expected but it was definitely innovative and very risky. Hopefully Allison will continue to try different things apart from the rest of the grid, even if they fail to work.

 

That FFE was good enough for both Heidfeld and Petrov to get podiums in the early races, before it reached the limit in development. I thought it was quite genius at the time. With a bigger budget they could have refined the idea more and extracted the full potential over the season.

 

Be nice to see that sort of thing on Ferrari, but the Enstone team have always been quite a creative bunch that push the envelope, so I don't know how much of that was Allisons influence or him simply allowing an entrenched atmosphere to prosper further.

[RedRabbit]

Speaking of the pull rod front suspension, Auto Bild Motorsport says the 2015 Ferrari will have front pull rod like the 2012, 13 & 14 cars.

 

The preseason impressions of the Ferrari's the last few years have always been so beautiful, then the reality is unveiled in January.

[ViMaMo]

The pull rod front suspension wasn't a failure. Had Fernando not been in one of two wrecks(Spa & Japan) he would've won the WDC with the pull rod front suspension.

I'm not saying it was a huge success but it definitely wasn't a failure. It was just a suspension to me, nothing that wasn't ever done before. Different at the time but it was no F-Duct or DDD. It wasn't as innovative or risky as Renault's FFE during the blown diffuser days that James Allison was responsible for. It didn't work as expected but it was definitely innovative and very risky. Hopefully Allison will continue to try different things apart from the rest of the grid, even if they fail to work.

 

It was different but I don't know how much advantage it provided. I didn't say it is a failure but nothing special or big.

[DrF]

Stick with the reliable PU and improve the package. To finish first you have to finish!

[Zava]

Because that is not the actual 2015 car? 

I think  Ze Bum's point was - why do they visualize it with a lush rod if they mean pull rod?

 

 

edit: push, I mean push rod. damn I don't want no ferrari with "lush rods" in visible places!

Edited by Zava, 19 December 2014 - 12:24.

[CrucialXtreme]

It was different but I don't know how much advantage it provided. I didn't say it is a failure but nothing special or big.

When you say it wasn't a success you imply that it was a failure. Technically the pull rod front suspension was a success because it worked as intended. However I agree it wasn't anything big or special.

@Ze Bum I just assumed it was because it wasn't an actual pic of the 2015 car. But I was wrong. Someone got the translation wrong and Sports Bild says the 2015 Ferrari will have a push rod front suspension. Apologies for posting it would be pull rod.

[FerrariV12]

I'm sure it'll be devilishly quick.

[Jimisgod]

Or will it take the drivers down the highway to hell?

[alfa1]

I'm sure it'll be devilishly quick.

 

Somewhat surprised that nobody said it would be a BEAST.

[Rob G]

Call it the Fiat Mephistopheles II.

[aramos]

Speaking of the pull rod front suspension, Auto Bild Motorsport says the 2015 Ferrari will have front pull rod like the 2012, 13 & 14 cars.

 

It has quite a significant effect on the aero over the duration of the car doesn't it? I assume next years car will be evolutionary, so changing the suspension would mean drastic modifications over the length of the car.

[HP]

Given the issues last season I think that is the proper way forward with front suspension.

[Lazy]

I'd go with fast but fragile, it's more fun.

[TF110]

666? Surely, Lamborghini will follow Ford's example of "f150" to sue for the name infringement of "Diablo".

Edited by TF110, 20 December 2014 - 08:55.

[topical]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Most of them, in recent years, starting with the letter F.

[jcbc3]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Most of them, in recent years, starting with the letter F.

So what is the way to Heaven paved with.......?

[ingegnere]

The preseason impressions of the Ferrari's the last few years have always been so beautiful, then the reality is unveiled in January.

+1

 

Would be happy to see the car look this good, including the simplified graphics.  2014 was a low point in performance, looks of the car and the graphics.  Reasons enough to give those responsible their marching orders.

 

Also hoping to see a moderation of the front wishbone angles as a sign of new thinking after years in the desert.  You knew the design team (or leaders) ran out of ideas when they re-cycled (copy/pasted) that ridiculous high nose suspension when rules called for a low nose - and then they proceeded to produce the LOWEST (and ugliest) nose on the grid.

I can bet (or hope) that the 2014 front suspension - I'm not just referring to the pull-rod design - will be trashed next year. The absurd ATV-style wishbone angles with resulting high roll centre (especially compared to the rear roll centre) and poor camber gain just could not be good for the handling or tyre wear of a race car. All the top teams moderated the wishbone angles this year as the aero gains were just not there with lower nose - everybody except Ferrari.

Edited by ingegnere, 20 December 2014 - 17:26.

[BJHF1]

+1

 

Would be happy to see the car look this good, including the simplified graphics.  2014 was a low point in performance, looks of the car and the graphics.  Reasons enough to give those responsible their marching orders.

 

 

Also hoping to see a moderation of the front wishbone angles as a sign of new thinking after years in the desert.  You knew the design team (or leaders) ran out of ideas when they re-cycled (copy/pasted) that ridiculous high nose suspension when rules called for a low nose - and then they proceeded to produce the LOWEST (and ugliest) nose on the grid.

I can bet (or hope) that the 2014 front suspension - I'm not just referring to the pull-rod design - will be trashed next year. The absurd ATV-style wishbone angles with resulting high roll centre (especially compared to the rear roll centre) and poor camber gain just could not be good for the handling or tyre wear of a race car. All the top teams moderated the wishbone angles this year as the aero gains were just not there with lower nose - everybody except Ferrari.

 

This is exactly what I've thought for quite sometime as well (I've never seen an on-road race car with such an extremely high roll center in the front  ). One would have to think having such a high roll center (relative to the CoG) would wreck havoc with the natural weight transfer of the car...leading to a car that may be a unnatural/unpredictable feeling. Also as you mentioned, the camber gain will be quite poor with such extreme wishbone angles, as well as the fact that the front track will grow with suspension travel, which would likely bring about it's own problems.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if this has led to all of the issues with getting the front end to work, while making it feel a bit dull (for a lack of a better term) and unpredictable. You look at the Mercedes W05, which roll centers seem to correlate much more inline with the natural CoG of the car, and the car just looks absolutely planted at all times without any odd behaviors.

[DrF]

If they can sort out the balance and get that front end working predictably so that the drivers can attack corners with confidence, put the power down when they need it and not chew their tyres to shreds or struggle to get them to operating temperature, then does it really matter if their PU is a few Kw down on Mercedes?

[ingegnere]

how high is a high RC? Maybe it's a lot lower then some would have thought? - Maybe not.
 
let's be a bit careful, before we start parroting some stuff/Buzz words (Roll center height) around.
Engineering by eyeball can produce some unexpected results.

 

try for yourself

 http://vsusp.com

Interesting link, thanks.  I have my own suspension analysis software that can handle 3D geometry (including anti-dive, ant-squat and steering input/output - see my avatar), but some things are just obvious.

 

How high is too high a roll center? Don't really know, but if much higher than the rear, the roll axis will surely result in some non-linear weight transfer as noted also by BJHF1 as well as a high jacking moment on the front.  How much this is a factor with the limited suspension travels in F1 is debatable, but for sure other teams moderated the extreme wishbone angles this year as the benefits of raising the nose went away with the new rules.  In the old days (before raised noses) the target was to have the roll centers almost at ground level.

 

Also, this geometry results in a larger amount of lateral scrub (sideways movement of the tire contact patch relative to the chassis, also noted by BJHF1).  This was also mentioned by Scalabroni in his analysis of the F14T suspension.  I would imagine that if the front outside tire patch doesn't actually move outward when the front suspension is loaded (braking and turn-in) because it's planted by the downforce, this will result in a yaw moment on the chassis which could create some unpredictability in the feel of the front end.

Edited by ingegnere, 20 December 2014 - 19:16.

[ingegnere]

 
I can design (and I'm sure you can too) a (front)suspension, with "absurd ATV like" control arm angles, and still have the (geometric) roll center at or even below ground level.
 

Yes, if you're willing to give up (negative) camber gain and a reasonable RCH migration.

 

So, going on the (reasonable ?) assumption that a good car suspension design should not give up these useful characteristics, I can only assume that the roll center is high.  Do the Pirellis or the car mind this, I don't know.  All I know is that no other car has these extreme angles and many teams moderated the extreme wishbone angles in 2014 because most likely the aero benefits were diminished thereby swinging the suspension design requirements back to mechanical considerations - lower CG of suspension components, less jacking moment and less lateral scrub.

[kimster89]

This car cant dissapoint. We all already assume it will be a total crap and even worse than the f14T so this car can only surprise. It doesnt carry the buardain of expectations like all previus ferrari cars did.

[ingegnere]

This car cant dissapoint. We all already assume it will be a total crap and even worse than the f14T so this car can only surprise. It doesnt carry the buardain of expectations like all previus ferrari cars did.

It can't be worse.  They set the low standard with F14T: crap PU and PU integration, ugly nose, disjointed design (2013 high-nose suspension with low nose - I know, the bee in my bonnet), ugly graphics.

 

It can only get better.  They'll still be behind, just hopefully not as far and with more consistency.  I hope.

[ingegnere]

it's all possible and reasonable, but is one caused by the other?

take a look at the inclination angles of the control arms (wishbones) of McLaren vs. Williams in 2014, for some other extremely different examples.

 

Good example.  Maybe McLaren went too conservative and Williams found a good balance between aero and mechanical.

[Callisto]

So what is the way to Heaven paved with.......?

Bullshit?

[chipmcdonald]

666? Surely, Lamborghini will follow Ford's example of "f150" to sue for the name infringement of "Diablo".

 

Fitting, given they're now run by the former Marlboro advertising exec.

 

Strip out the guts of Ferrari, hire a guy who made his living coming up with new ways to sell cancer, and run a red car based on the Number of the Beast?

 

Why not, sounds like just about every other insane thing in the 21st century.

[DrF]

There is no way Ferrari can be worse than 2014.

2015 won't be easy, but it's the start of a recovery. Allison will have had some time to redesign the 2015 car, even though it was probably signed off before he got there. The drivers both have a lot to prove, they just need a car which they can trust...

Management-wise I don't know. They need another Todt. If the chaos on the pit wall and in Maranello continues then what chance does the rest of the team have?

Edited by DrF, 21 December 2014 - 09:11.

[as65p]

If the chaos on the pit wall and in Maranello continues then what chance does the rest of the team have?

 

Let's not be so sloppy and damn the whole team just for the sake of it. Over the last 5 years, the pit crew, the team at the track or whatever you'd like to call it, has been very good. All we can say is they constantly weren't able to produce a car that could compete with the best, aside from a few flashes. How much of that was due to deficits in the technical or in the management department is a bit harder to tell.

[RedRabbit]

Let's not be so sloppy and damn the whole team just for the sake of it. Over the last 5 years, the pit crew, the team at the track or whatever you'd like to call it, has been very good. All we can say is they constantly weren't able to produce a car that could compete with the best, aside from a few flashes. How much of that was due to deficits in the technical or in the management department is a bit harder to tell.

 

If anything, track side operations have kept them in the game last few years.

[BillBald]

If anything, track side operations have kept them in the game last few years.

 

But they are losing some people to McLaren...

[OneAndOnly]

Taking the right direction with this car would be nice for a change. That's all what I want from Project 666.

[chipmcdonald]

They have eviscerated enough people that effectively "Ferrari" is a new team with a famous name.  Vettel is not Alonso either IMHO, I can easily see them take a major, major step backwards.

 

What aspect of the team have they not diminished in experience and expertise?  Each one of those elements can completely come up short next year - and they've made a "lot of elements".  It's almost certain they're going to go even further backwards.

 

But that's fine, I now consider them Team Cancer in leadership and managerial action. 

[turssi]

New team but with Ferrari resources and infra!

[TheDoctor]

Ferrari have their first win. Off track that is. 

Looks like there has been an extension to the engine freeze for 2015. It's been pushed out from Feb to June/July I think.

 

This was pushed by Bernie and Arrivabene very hard. So expect Ferrari to start slowly and then bring on the speed through the season stuff gets settled in the new GS facility which they are moving into now.

[TheDoctor]

I am worried that Monte has an axe to grind, and his new appointment to the F1 board will not be good for Ferrari.

 

Personally i think his love for Ferrari should be bigger than his ego (if only just) but there are many nervous people in Maranello right now who are trying to force Luca out of the F1 Boardroom.

Unfortunately if you don't get the politics right monday-friday you have less of a chance to win on Sunday.

 

Time for a good old fashioned Italian sit down i think. It's time to stop the blood letting.

[RedRabbit]

But they are losing some people to McLaren...

 

And the really bad news about that, is that it's McLaren's poor track side operations which have allowed Ferrari a foot in the door with slower cars but slicker team work and dedicated driving. All of that heading McLaren's way is going to make it even more difficult to beat them.

[DrF]

Ferrari have their first win. Off track that is.
Looks like there has been an extension to the engine freeze for 2015. It's been pushed out from Feb to June/July I think.

This was pushed by Bernie and Arrivabene very hard. So expect Ferrari to start slowly and then bring on the speed through the season stuff gets settled in the new GS facility which they are moving into now.

Good news, but the car needs to be better too

[TheDoctor]

Good news, but the car needs to be better too

 

Agreed. But as we know, winning starts away from the track and sometimes in the Board room. 

This means that we at least may have something interesting to watch in 2015.

 

The biggest issue with the regs was not the number of tokens but the time to use them. This is why Merc were pushing back. They knew the others didn't have the time to solve their issues so were initially happy to increase the number of tokens available but not the time to implement them.

 

We wont close the gap entirely but we can develop for a longer period in prep for 2016... if we keep the same engines.

[Reinmuster]

Stick with the reliable PU and improve the package. To finish first you have to finish!

They did finished the race most of the time during 2014, but there's no point having consistently finish the race if it was 30-40 sec gap to winners.

[HPT]

Ferrari have their first win. Off track that is. 

Looks like there has been an extension to the engine freeze for 2015. It's been pushed out from Feb to June/July I think.

 

This was pushed by Bernie and Arrivabene very hard. So expect Ferrari to start slowly and then bring on the speed through the season stuff gets settled in the new GS facility which they are moving into now.

 

Where did you get this? I tried looking but couldn't find anything on it. A link would be great. Thanks.

[showtime]

Autosprint ‏@autosprint  21 minHace 21 minutos

#Ferrari2015: Marchionne: "Sarà un anno di transizione perché siamo in ritardo per via di certe scelte che non condivido fatte nel 2014"

Autosprint ‏@autosprint  20 minHace 20 minutos

#Ferrari2015 Marchionne: "Newey? È una opzione chiusa"

Autosprint ‏@autosprint  16 minHace 16 minutos

#Ferrari2015 Arrivabene: "Se il prossimo anno vinciamo 2 Gp per noi è un successo, e se sono 3 è un trionfo"

Autosprint ‏@autosprint  12 minHace 12 minutos

#Ferrari2015: Marchionne: "La mia esperienza di manager mi dice che togliendo i n.1 dal comando e affidando il lavoro ai n.2 si progredisce"

 

M: Transition year, we are delayed because of certain choices, that I don't agree with, done in 2014.

M: Newey is a close option.

A: Winning 2 Gps would be a success, winning 3 would be a triumph.

M: My experience as a manager tells me that taking the command from #1 and giving the task to #2 there's progress.

Edited by showtime, 22 December 2014 - 15:01.

[Richard T]

Autosprint ‏@autosprint 21 minHace 21 minutos
#Ferrari2015: Marchionne: "Sarà un anno di transizione perché siamo in ritardo per via di certe scelte che non condivido fatte nel 2014"
Autosprint ‏@autosprint 20 minHace 20 minutos
#Ferrari2015 Marchionne: "Newey? È una opzione chiusa"
Autosprint ‏@autosprint 16 minHace 16 minutos
#Ferrari2015 Arrivabene: "Se il prossimo anno vinciamo 2 Gp per noi è un successo, e se sono 3 è un trionfo"
Autosprint ‏@autosprint 12 minHace 12 minutos
#Ferrari2015: Marchionne: "La mia esperienza di manager mi dice che togliendo i n.1 dal comando e affidando il lavoro ai n.2 si progredisce"

Don't post tweets in another language than English without a translation please

[showtime]

Don't post tweets in another language than English without a translation please

Translation takes some time (5 minutes!). Meanwhile those who understand the language can read the quotes. 

Anyway, back on topic, Marchionne has also said that not only Newey but Brown are close cases and that they believe in the people already working there. The crash tests have been passed and they will be able to make changes in the PU throughout the season.

Edited by showtime, 22 December 2014 - 15:50.