197 replies to this topic

[Riverside]

April fools came early?   

[drag]

Ricciardo is simply quality driver 

[Heasven]

If getting thrashed by a nobody is throwing the season away, then yes.

And here i thought the Alonso conspiracy theories were out there in the wacko side.

[Menace]

Ricciardo is simply quality driver 

 

...and Vettel was struggling with the car.

[Exb]

I'm not sure I want to get involved in this argument - people have there own ideas and I'm not going to change that so why bother? However with that attitude I guess there is no point being here so this is my opinion:

I guess it comes down to if you believe it is possible a driver can have different performance levels in different cars. There is often discussion on these boards about different driver styles, and as a result it is easy to imagine different car characteristics will suit different drivers. I can accept that if a car suits a drivers style he will get more out of it than if it doesn't. I don't see why 2 drivers with different styles couldn't get completely opposite results 2 years in a row if the cars had totally different characteristics.

Bringing that back to the OP - no I don't think Seb purposely threw his results. I think he just had a bad year where he couldn't get the car to do what he wanted to enable him to get the maximum out of it - he has said that, Red Bull has said that, why does it need to be more sinister.

Should Seb have done better last year - probably but I'm not going to judge the rest of his career on 1 year. Is it a black mark, definitely - regardless of the excuses. He struggled to adapt as well as he could have so that is a negative. Did he have external issues that have been mentioned by some posters that effected him? Maybe but if so that is another negative if he let it effect his on track performance.

Does it cast a negative light over his performances this year? - no not in my mind, if the car is more to his liking and he is confident in it to push to the maximum his performance will be better, and Seb seems happy with this car.

So that just leaves the issue of not having a benchmark driver to measure his performance against. Is Kimi really a good enough driver? - last year suggests not, but again in a car he didn't like and couldn't drive (and it was painfully obvious to see), why shouldn't his performance improve again in a car he prefers? Maybe if Alonso had stayed Kimi would have been much closer, its a shame we will never find out.

Would Daniel do better than Seb? I have no idea to be honest but don't see it as a guarantee. (I find this difficult as I really like Daniel and probably out of all the drivers I would love it if he goes on to win a championship - his performance last year was fantastic so I am not in anyway trying to knock that) Last year I didn't see a huge amount of difference between the outright speed of Dan and Seb - quali was fairly equal and even the start of race stints pace was similar (or Seb sometimes slightly faster) However where Dan performed better was in his use of the tyres - he was far and away better, where Seb struggled to make them last Daniel had no problems whatsoever - this helped his strategies and so he could get better results. As well as that his racing was clean - if needed to overtake he did, and that usually enabled him to finish well clear of Seb. -> So Sebs pace was OK, his tyre wear was not. However Malaysia this year would suggest Seb is not having difficulties with tyre wear so maybe Dan would have lost his main advantage and it would be very close between them. Maybe Seb could now extract more performance out of this car and would jut be faster - maybe this car would suit Dan even better and he would now be clearly ahead on pace? I don't know and would certainly not put any money on the outcome between the 2 if I knew Seb was 100% happy with the car. I would love to see them in the same team again at some point in the future as I think it would be fascinating.

[RustyRuss]

Vettel got his A$$ kicked last year.

[FastnLoud]

No he just got smashed

[FastnLoud]

I'm not sure I want to get involved in this argument - people have there own ideas and I'm not going to change that so why bother? However with that attitude I guess there is no point being here so this is my opinion:

I guess it comes down to if you believe it is possible a driver can have different performance levels in different cars. There is often discussion on these boards about different driver styles, and as a result it is easy to imagine different car characteristics will suit different drivers. I can accept that if a car suits a drivers style he will get more out of it than if it doesn't. I don't see why 2 drivers with different styles couldn't get completely opposite results 2 years in a row if the cars had totally different characteristics.

Bringing that back to the OP - no I don't think Seb purposely threw his results. I think he just had a bad year where he couldn't get the car to do what he wanted to enable him to get the maximum out of it - he has said that, Red Bull has said that, why does it need to be more sinister.

Should Seb have done better last year - probably but I'm not going to judge the rest of his career on 1 year. Is it a black mark, definitely - regardless of the excuses. He struggled to adapt as well as he could have so that is a negative. Did he have external issues that have been mentioned by some posters that effected him? Maybe but if so that is another negative if he let it effect his on track performance.

Does it cast a negative light over his performances this year? - no not in my mind, if the car is more to his liking and he is confident in it to push to the maximum his performance will be better, and Seb seems happy with this car.

So that just leaves the issue of not having a benchmark driver to measure his performance against. Is Kimi really a good enough driver? - last year suggests not, but again in a car he didn't like and couldn't drive (and it was painfully obvious to see), why shouldn't his performance improve again in a car he prefers? Maybe if Alonso had stayed Kimi would have been much closer, its a shame we will never find out.

Would Daniel do better than Seb? I have no idea to be honest but don't see it as a guarantee. (I find this difficult as I really like Daniel and probably out of all the drivers I would love it if he goes on to win a championship - his performance last year was fantastic so I am not in anyway trying to knock that) Last year I didn't see a huge amount of difference between the outright speed of Dan and Seb - quali was fairly equal and even the start of race stints pace was similar (or Seb sometimes slightly faster) However where Dan performed better was in his use of the tyres - he was far and away better, where Seb struggled to make them last Daniel had no problems whatsoever - this helped his strategies and so he could get better results. As well as that his racing was clean - if needed to overtake he did, and that usually enabled him to finish well clear of Seb. -> So Sebs pace was OK, his tyre wear was not. However Malaysia this year would suggest Seb is not having difficulties with tyre wear so maybe Dan would have lost his main advantage and it would be very close between them. Maybe Seb could now extract more performance out of this car and would jut be faster - maybe this car would suit Dan even better and he would now be clearly ahead on pace? I don't know and would certainly not put any money on the outcome between the 2 if I knew Seb was 100% happy with the car. I would love to see them in the same team again at some point in the future as I think it would be fascinating.

Not sure you want to get involved yet do a 20 page essay loool - agree with some of your points though

[Ar558]

This will probably get deleted but here goes. NO he was finally found out for the good but NOT GREAT driver he actually is. All we know from his years at Red Bull is that he is better than Mark Webber (as a Driver not person). He was driving the most dominant car he hasn't yet proved any more than that. Now he is outside of  Adrian Newey's cars we will see if he can actually compete in the way Fernando and Lewis have for years. Kimi will be the hardest team mate he has had but even then KR is not the Champion he was and most if not many expect him to retire and the end of the season (or contract?). He may prove me wrong but I have yet to see him win when he didn't have the most dominant machine. 

[drag]

...and Vettel was struggling with the car.

 Im not denying , that and maybe some motivation or other issue ... we forget that they are all human beings and these things matter 

 

But from what I saw Ricciardo can compete against any top driver currently in F1 , dont forget he dominated him in every department not just being faster

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

No it wasn't deliberate but I do think

 

A) he lacked motivation

 

B) Lost focus

 

C) Had made his mind up already to join Ferrari after the summer break

[sopa]

Well, Vettel is not as far ahead of Kimi as Alonso was...so I vote Vettel is the same as last year, just that Ricciardo was better, and Alonso and Hamilton are right.

 

If you are looking at situations just like a mathematician, you may conclude it. However, looking deeper there are some differences. For example Vettel struggled with tyre wear in races last year. He seems to be "okay" with race pace this year. Of course, car characteristics are different as well. Or would Ricciardo save his tyres even better and finish further 30 secs up the road?

 

Also, Raikkonen. For years his race pace has been stronger than qualifying pace. The exception was 2014. For some reason his race pace wasn't more impressive than Q pace, often it was even the other way around. Which was rather odd.

[sopa]

Ricciardo is simply quality driver 

 

I agree. One of my top 4 drivers on the grid, for sure.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

Riccardo cant beat Kvyat. Imagine what Danil could do in that Ferrari yesterday. He could propably lap the mercedes pair.

 

He'd probably lap himself, he is so fast.

[Exb]

Not sure you want to get involved yet do a 20 page essay loool - agree with some of your points though

That's why I wasn't sure I wanted to get involved - its a complicated topic which meant a long answer that most people won't agree with anyway as its only my own opinion, but as I pointed out with that attitude I may as well put a film on and not bother logging on here

[aramos]

Losing against a rookie, beaten by trulli on points till trulli was sacked

 

When you say things like this it just makes you seem incredibly biased. Alonso got equal points with Hamilton, while yes, not his finest year, its very different to what happened to Vettel last season. 

[aramos]

I'm not sure I want to get involved in this argument - people have there own ideas and I'm not going to change that so why bother? However with that attitude I guess there is no point being here so this is my opinion:

I guess it comes down to if you believe it is possible a driver can have different performance levels in different cars. There is often discussion on these boards about different driver styles, and as a result it is easy to imagine different car characteristics will suit different drivers. I can accept that if a car suits a drivers style he will get more out of it than if it doesn't. I don't see why 2 drivers with different styles couldn't get completely opposite results 2 years in a row if the cars had totally different characteristics.

Bringing that back to the OP - no I don't think Seb purposely threw his results. I think he just had a bad year where he couldn't get the car to do what he wanted to enable him to get the maximum out of it - he has said that, Red Bull has said that, why does it need to be more sinister.

Should Seb have done better last year - probably but I'm not going to judge the rest of his career on 1 year. Is it a black mark, definitely - regardless of the excuses. He struggled to adapt as well as he could have so that is a negative. Did he have external issues that have been mentioned by some posters that effected him? Maybe but if so that is another negative if he let it effect his on track performance.

Does it cast a negative light over his performances this year? - no not in my mind, if the car is more to his liking and he is confident in it to push to the maximum his performance will be better, and Seb seems happy with this car.

So that just leaves the issue of not having a benchmark driver to measure his performance against. Is Kimi really a good enough driver? - last year suggests not, but again in a car he didn't like and couldn't drive (and it was painfully obvious to see), why shouldn't his performance improve again in a car he prefers? Maybe if Alonso had stayed Kimi would have been much closer, its a shame we will never find out.

Would Daniel do better than Seb? I have no idea to be honest but don't see it as a guarantee. (I find this difficult as I really like Daniel and probably out of all the drivers I would love it if he goes on to win a championship - his performance last year was fantastic so I am not in anyway trying to knock that) Last year I didn't see a huge amount of difference between the outright speed of Dan and Seb - quali was fairly equal and even the start of race stints pace was similar (or Seb sometimes slightly faster) However where Dan performed better was in his use of the tyres - he was far and away better, where Seb struggled to make them last Daniel had no problems whatsoever - this helped his strategies and so he could get better results. As well as that his racing was clean - if needed to overtake he did, and that usually enabled him to finish well clear of Seb. -> So Sebs pace was OK, his tyre wear was not. However Malaysia this year would suggest Seb is not having difficulties with tyre wear so maybe Dan would have lost his main advantage and it would be very close between them. Maybe Seb could now extract more performance out of this car and would jut be faster - maybe this car would suit Dan even better and he would now be clearly ahead on pace? I don't know and would certainly not put any money on the outcome between the 2 if I knew Seb was 100% happy with the car. I would love to see them in the same team again at some point in the future as I think it would be fascinating.

 

Thats a very on point post. Thats more the impression I got too. Ricciardo performed better because of some situational factors that lead to him, but in most other seasons they would be closer in performance. But those saying things like "Seb would be ahead" like its some sort of  fact seem to be only the Vettel faithful. 

 

I would say Vettel would have a good chance to fight with Ricciardo in this years car, but thats as far as I'd go. 

[George Costanza]

His car had a bad year in terms of reliability.

 

Other than a few errors, his performance was superb.

 

Well, it seemed like a dip in peformance compared in 1991 and 1993.... The Alain Prost factor?

Edited by George Costanza, 31 March 2015 - 01:10.

[Mandzipop]

I think 2014 for Seb may well remain a bit of a mystery.

 

He wasn't the same even before the season started. So I think the pre-season events may have contributed to his off season.

 

There is also the possibility that he was exhausted, Maybe it was a case of winning too much too young.

 

He didn't have problems in the wet. I also think Red Bull would have known if he was throwing races.

 

On Sunday, Horner said that Seb was struggling with the throttle feedback. He also said it was clear Seb had got that back. There might be something in that as Helmut Marko put a bet on Seb to win in Malaysia. He was happy with his €400 winnings. So Marko knew Seb was back on form and confident in Seb's abilities.

 

I put it down to a combination of factors on and off the track which caused Seb to struggle. He lost his mojo and needed to go to Maranello to get it back.

 

Did he intentionally throw the season? I don't think so.

 

[discover23]

^ or just maybe just maybe Ricciardo is simply better than Vettel. Did anyone think of that?

[Mandzipop]

^ or just maybe just maybe Ricciardo is simply better than Vettel. Did anyone think of that?

 

That is not the OP's question. The question is did he throw the season to get the Ferrari drive?

 

He needed to finish below 3rd by the 30th September. Did he intentionally throw points/races to get the Ferrari drive.

 

This is not a Seb vs Dan thread.

[garagetinkerer]

Have you got a source for this man?

 

Not heard this before.

smh, there was a thread last year started and maintained by someone who was diligently clocking how many parts are used. I couldn't find it now, or i would have posted a link. Vettel usually was already on the next part (one or the other) for a lot of the races, just have a look. Horner made a statement that they were worried about reliability of components, they were pretty marginal in case of Vettel. Of course, Horner is not paid any attention here, beyond according him the status of a troll.

[Exb]

smh, there was a thread last year started and maintained by someone who was diligently clocking how many parts are used. I couldn't find it now, or i would have posted a link. Vettel usually was already on the next part (one or the other) for a lot of the races, just have a look. Horner made a statement that they were worried about reliability of components, they were pretty marginal in case of Vettel. Of course, Horner is not paid any attention here, beyond according him the status of a troll.

ahhh, that was probably me (along with pdac). It was a bit of an obsession of mine those power unit charts, I still have several spreadsheets on my computor where I was trying to keep track of the usage
 
Edit: Here you go http://forums.autosp...wer-unit-count/ a fascinating read if you can't sleep (although no proof that Seb was running with a turned down engine, which is what I suspect Sennafan was wanting the link too)

Edited by Exb, 31 March 2015 - 01:58.

[garagetinkerer]

ahhh, that was probably me (along with pdac). It was a bit of an obsession of mine those power unit charts, I still have several spreadsheets on my computor where I was trying to keep track of the usage
 
Edit: Here you go http://forums.autosp...wer-unit-count/ a fascinating read if you can't sleep (although no proof that Seb was running with a turned down engine, which is what I suspect Sennafan was wanting the link too)

 

 

That was something Horner alluded to, that they had to conserve. Usually it is running slightly lower revs, shifting early and so on.

 

edit: Are you chaps doing something of the sort for this year as well? It would be helpful. 

Edited by garagetinkerer, 31 March 2015 - 03:13.

[travbrad]

Well the question is in the title.

This is far our in conspiracy land for me, but for a driver to go from dominant WDC to hopeless in one race, and then to go back to fine form the first race out of the team the next year has me suspecting strongly that he just threw the year in order to get out of his contract.

 

Both times Vettel was switching from very different cars, with the completely new regulations for 2014 and a completely new team/car for 2015.  Couldn't it just be that certain cars suit him better than others?  That seems a lot more likely than a super competitive 4xWDC throwing a whole season on purpose.  He has had different teammates each of the last 3 years as well, which makes any sort of comparison even more difficult.  Maybe Ricciardo also would have won in that Ferrari?  Or maybe the RBR last year just suited Ricciardo better?  No one really knows.  We haven't really seen what Raikkonen can do this season either, with both of his races being badly compromised.

 

One thing we do know for sure is Vettel made a great choice joining Ferrari.  Ferrari looked better in Malaysia than RBR looked at ANY race last season, even the races Ricciardo won.  Even if they aren't quite as strong in future races at least they are moving in the right direction, whereas RBR is now struggling to beat STR...something that hasn't happened since 2008.

Edited by travbrad, 31 March 2015 - 03:34.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

Is this real life? Deliberately threw away 2014... Do me a favour.

2014 was a bad year, that's it. He couldn't get the car to do what he wanted it to do, couldn't make the tyres last as long as Ricciardo and Daniel just did a better job.

Now, he seems to have made the right decision to move to Ferrari because he looks full of energy and joy again and the car is suiting him which means he'll perform much better relative to last year for instance.

[Gilles4Ever]

That is not the OP's question. The question is did he throw the season to get the Ferrari drive?

 

He needed to finish below 3rd by the 30th September. Did he intentionally throw points/races to get the Ferrari drive.

 

This is not a Seb vs Dan thread.

 

Posts removed, please keep to the topic.

[josepatches]

Realibity issues, the problem of his driving style with the new tyres and the lack of motivation because Mercedes was out of reach seems to be the reasons why he had an off season. I dont think he threw away the season

 

But also to me a big factor was that Ferrari and Vettel had an agreement months ago before it was public so he didnt work as hard as he should do to improve the car.  Of course if Red Bull was aware that he was.going to Ferrari then his car wouldn't be the same either.  Did he worked in 2015's car? I dont know but in my opinion the same way Alonso could have play a role in the new Ferrari it's clear Red Bull is lacking the work of Vettel.

 

 

 

.

[Acathla]

I don't think he did, but he suffered big time in 2014. I don't like Vettel, but I just can't imagine that he 'threw' his season, he's too competitive for that IMHO. Although he has four titles, I still rate him below the likes of a Alonso and Hamilton. A (very) good driver, but not a great one who can extract things out of a 'bad' car. 

[BillBald]

It's very clear.

 

Ferrari and Vettel had a plan. Ferrari would pretend to have a rubbish car, and Vettel would pretend to be a rubbish driver.

 

Alonso would be happy to go to McLaren, Horner would be happy to see Vettel go, and then Ferrari would bring out their 'real' car...

 

I just can't decide whether Kimi was kept in the loop. I suspect not.

[anneomoly]

It's very clear.

 

Ferrari and Vettel had a plan. Ferrari would pretend to have a rubbish car, and Vettel would pretend to be a rubbish driver.

 

Alonso would be happy to go to McLaren, Horner would be happy to see Vettel go, and then Ferrari would bring out their 'real' car...

 

I just can't decide whether Kimi was kept in the loop. I suspect not.

 

He was probably having a sh*t

[WhiteBlue]

Most people here do not understand the way Vettel interfaces with the team and the engineers. The dedication and the positive feed back, the appreciation and personal focus is absolutely total when the relationship is on. When all these factors are switched off because both sides know it is realy already over the strong points turn into weak points and nothing works anymore. I'm convinced Vettel did not have to do anything to arrive at his dissapointing 2014 results. He just had to make the decision to sign a precontract with Ferrari at the begin of the 2014 season an from there it was all automatic.

Edited by WhiteBlue, 31 March 2015 - 23:16.

[f1RacingForever]

He didn't throw it. Drivers are far to egotistical to seriously consider doing something like that but i think he wasn't as motivated as he otherwise would have been given the competitiveness of the car and with the his future with the team in doubt. He didn't give it his all and im not trying to take anything away from him by saying that.

[D1rtyHarry]

Why is this thread 4 pages long? You lot should be ashamed of yourselves!

[V666]

...and Vettel was struggling with the car.

The car still had four wheels and a steering wheel, that's his problem.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

You know what, some people actually think that Mercedes is not that fast, and it is the drivers. You may be right.

 

In Malaysia that statement is valid. But did we see a car stretched to it's maximum potential, but instead one dialed back in the interests of reliability, the heat, and the fact that in the weeks preceding Mercedes were under attack by many because of their utter dominance? Please remember, one big story before Malaysia was that some teams wanted a rule change to level the playing field. After their performance in Malaysia, the political momentum to change any rules to cripple Mercedes are very dead.

 

Vettel sandbagging? No, he just had a bad year. Almost every top driver suffers a time when their results do not match their drive and talent.

[goingthedistance]

At his time at Red Bull one thing was clear, when the car was good Vettel was exceptional, maybe the best driver in F1. But if the car was struggling, even a little, he often dipped below his team-mate (see the first half of 2012 and all of 2014). It really is that simple IMO. He gets more out of a good car than most.

 

The 2015 Ferrari is clearly a good car, look at Kimi coming from so far down the grid to get 4th. 

 

And this thread was dreadfully predictable, I saw it coming as soon as he signed the contract last year. Vettel fans seem intent on building their favourite into a faultless saint, and are big on revisionism. 

Edited by goingthedistance, 01 April 2015 - 12:57.

[Zava]

At his time at Red Bull one thing was clear, when the car was good Vettel was exceptional, maybe the best driver in F1. But if the car was struggling, even a little, he often dipped below his team-mate (see the first half of 2012 and all of 2014). It really is that simple IMO. He gets more out of a good car than most.

 

The 2015 Ferrari is clearly a good car, look at Kimi coming from so far down the grid to get 4th. 

 

And this thread was dreadfully predictable, I saw it coming as soon as he signed the contract last year. Vettel fans seem intent on building their favourite into a faultless saint, and are big on revisionism. 

WE are big on revisionism? what about the bunch who already stripped him of his WDCs because of a bad year?

 

also, dipping below Webber in 2012? he was beaten in what, 3 unhindered races that year (china, monaco, silverstone). what a gigantic dip.

[goingthedistance]

WE are big on revisionism? what about the bunch who already stripped him of his WDCs because of a bad year?

 

also, dipping below Webber in 2012? he was beaten in what, 3 unhindered races that year (china, monaco, silverstone). what a gigantic dip.

 

When he's racing for fourth or fifth, or even perhaps third he's simply not the same driver (bar his early days at STR, and even then it was not as clear cut as some would say). Give him a sniff of a win and he's unbeatable. 

 

And I've never seen anybody "strip him of his WDCs" because of last year. Exaggeration at best. Certainly nobody half sane would say something like that. 

[Zava]

When he's racing for fourth or fifth, or even perhaps third he's simply not the same driver (bar his early days at STR, and even then it was not as clear cut as some would say). Give him a sniff of a win and he's unbeatable. 

 

And I've never seen anybody "strip him of his WDCs" because of last year. Exaggeration at best. Certainly nobody half sane would say something like that. 

that's a bit different, I'm OK with that. 

 

I've seen a lot of "had Ricciardo been in the RBR since 2009, Vettel would've won zero WDCs" kind of posts, I'm talking about those. as good as. 

Edited by Zava, 01 April 2015 - 15:18.

[krea]

When he's racing for fourth or fifth, or even perhaps third he's simply not the same driver (bar his early days at STR, and even then it was not as clear cut as some would say). Give him a sniff of a win and he's unbeatable. 

 

And I've never seen anybody "strip him of his WDCs" because of last year. Exaggeration at best. Certainly nobody half sane would say something like that. 

 

What? That's plain wrong. It's stunning how people forgot just his several fights with Alonso last year alone for whatever mid positions.

 

Vettel's strong point is that he is capable of bringing his car to the position it's deserve on saturyday and sunday. He is like a machine who is capable of repeating Q3 tier laps and I hope the shitposting about that he can't overtake isn't a thing anymore.

Edited by krea, 01 April 2015 - 15:21.

[Mauseri]

Not deliberately, he just lacked some motivation last year, for whatever reason.

[Gareth]

the Ferrari pre contract they did in summer 2013

 

 

He just had to make the decision to sign a precontract with Ferrari at the begin of the 2014 season an from there it was all automatic.

 

When was it signed?

[garagetinkerer]

In Malaysia that statement is valid. But did we see a car stretched to it's maximum potential, but instead one dialed back in the interests of reliability, the heat, and the fact that in the weeks preceding Mercedes were under attack by many because of their utter dominance? Please remember, one big story before Malaysia was that some teams wanted a rule change to level the playing field. After their performance in Malaysia, the political momentum to change any rules to cripple Mercedes are very dead.

 

Vettel sandbagging? No, he just had a bad year. Almost every top driver suffers a time when their results do not match their drive and talent.

One of my favourite posters, Blinky... sorry for being a fanboy

 

Well i was speaking about fans' reaction to last year, where Mercedes won 16 races, and imo, could/ should have won 2 more out of the remaining 3 really. Erm, that is a perspective, but as a tifoso, i was too overjoyed to think along those lines. I don't think Mercedes had a pace problem at Sepang. It was simply that qualifying was closer than it had to be, owing to variable conditions, and in the race, they got the strategy wrong, and Hamilton was in traffic for bit, and aero set-up for Ferrari meant that they weren't too compromised.

[HoldenRT]

What a difference 12 months makes.

[V666]

What a difference 12 months makes.

Or maybe what a new car makes??

[hansmann]

Option D :  It's stupid question

[YoungGun]

When did Ricciardo have 3rd in the WDC sewn up?