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Driver coaching over the radio in Malaysian GP


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Poll: Is it driver coaching? (88 member(s) have cast votes)

"Keep doing this, Pace is good"

  1. Yes, It is driver caoching (17 votes [19.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.32%

  2. No, It isn't driver coaching (71 votes [80.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 80.68%

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#1 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 16:44

Sebastian Vettel's race engineer over the radio: "Keep doing this, pace is good"

 

Isn't that driver coaching? Than means you are doing everything alright whether it is fuel saving or looking after tires or late braking or tire management or . . . or all of them.

 

It is like a teacher looks at student's answers in the middle of an exam and says everything is alright.

 

Note: Ferrari fans or Sebastian Vettel fans or FIA fans, please Don't take this article personally. It is a common discussion in every aspects for all the teams and drivers.


Edited by RYARLE, 30 March 2015 - 16:46.


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#2 Jon83

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 16:50

Not really, no. 



#3 Exb

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 16:51

No

 

For instance Lewis's engineer was giving him target laptimes, which also seems OK, it is not like they are helping the driver how to do that and telling him to take a wider line in turn 4 for example.



#4 MikeV1987

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 16:52

That is absolutely not driver coaching, there's nothing wrong with an engineer firing his driver up.  :confused:


Edited by MikeV1987, 30 March 2015 - 16:52.


#5 kimster89

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 16:54

No.

 

That Team Radio you mention was only an encouragment for Sebastian.

 

Driver coching would be if they said he need to push some button in some particular corner, or use different racing line to gain time etc. 



#6 Grundle

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 16:56

If you can't say this, then it's a joke.
The phrase "keep doing this" is just encouragement, and nothing to do with coaching.

#7 MikeV1987

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 16:57

Listen to Rosbergs radio from Malaysia qualy asking about dry lines and his engineer makes it clear "Can't help you with lines, Nico.

 

That is a perfect example of what driver coaching could be. 


Edited by MikeV1987, 30 March 2015 - 16:58.


#8 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 16:59

But that kind of radio messages clear all the doubts that maybe he is doing something wrong.



#9 oetzi

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 17:02

Listen to Rosbergs radio from Malaysia qualy asking about dry lines and his engineer makes it clear "Can't help you with lines, Nico.

 

That is a perfect example of what driver coaching could be. 

Actually, I thought that was a bit harsh - surely telling him which bits of the track are wet and dry isn't driver coaching?

 

Nobody would complain if he got a message saying 'Raining now at T8'.

 

Don't really see the difference to a message saying 'Dry line round the outside at T9'.



#10 Jon83

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 17:02

But that kind of radio messages clear all the doubts that maybe he is doing something wrong.

 

Mate, its not coaching. 



#11 Atreiu

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 17:18

Can the engineers tell the drivers to, for example, adjust torque and diferential to help preserve the tyres?

Or can they say "your tyres will not last at this rate"?



#12 Giz

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 17:20

Actually, I thought that was a bit harsh - surely telling him which bits of the track are wet and dry isn't driver coaching?

Nobody would complain if he got a message saying 'Raining now at T8'.

Don't really see the difference to a message saying 'Dry line round the outside at T9'.


If T9 is clearly wet (tarmac) then saying that is just as clearly information on how to handle that corner

If Lewis and Seb and Max can figure out how to drive it on their own then so should Nico

#13 itsademo

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 17:43

Oetzi if you cant see the difference then umm....

one is a warning the other a clear piece of advice as to where you should change your line to improve your performance



#14 rasul

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 17:55

Is that a serious question? It's just encouragement. He's not instructing Vettel about his driving lines or anything -- he's just telling Vettel he's doing a great job. "Good job, the pace is good, keep it up, mate."  If some consider that driver coaching, race engineers wouldn't be able to talk to their drivers at all.  :D

By the way, I like Vettel's engineer's voice. Very clear and confident. So different from Stella's heavily-accented drawl. 



#15 Szoelloe

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 18:31

But that kind of radio messages clear all the doubts that maybe he is doing something wrong.

 

 

Sebastian Vettel's race engineer over the radio: "Keep doing this, pace is good"

 

Isn't that driver coaching? Than means you are doing everything alright whether it is fuel saving or looking after tires or late braking or tire management or . . . or all of them.

 

It is like a teacher looks at student's answers in the middle of an exam and says everything is alright.

 

Note: Ferrari fans or Sebastian Vettel fans or FIA fans, please Don't take this article personally. It is a common discussion in every aspects for all the teams and drivers.

 

No. He could be getting the same message from the pitboard lap by lap, like the drivers always did the past 60 years. How could this be coaching?? Rosberg was denied the information of the lines his faster teammate was taking on a damp track when he asked for it. THAT would have been coaching. This is not. :confused:



#16 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 19:01

I blame Nico Rosberg for this stupid rule and this thread. 



#17 Murdoch

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 20:08

I blame Nico Rosberg for this stupid rule and this thread. 

 

Oh come on be fair.....

 

 

 

Massa (& Smedley) have a lot to do with it as well



#18 oetzi

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 20:09

Oetzi if you cant see the difference then umm....
one is a warning the other a clear piece of advice as to where you should change your line to improve your performance

I thought the idea wasn't to prevent the team offering generally available info, I thought it was to prevent them using telemetry to provide driver coaching.

Saying a given bit of track is wetter or drier doesn't strike me as 'advising on lines'. Not worth arguing about though.

#19 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 20:22

No. He could be getting the same message from the pitboard lap by lap, like the drivers always did the past 60 years. How could this be coaching?? Rosberg was denied the information of the lines his faster teammate was taking on a damp track when he asked for it. THAT would have been coaching. This is not. :confused:

 

Exactly!

 

In other words, a message saying "it's raining now in turns 8/9" is perfectly acceptable, while a message saying "Driver X is faster in said corners because he is turning later than you" is definitely coaching.



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#20 Ben1445

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 20:27

Is there an option for 'Couldn't really care less' ? 



#21 Jeeves

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 20:32

..FIA fans..

 

lol



#22 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 20:33

This thread !! Pahahah

#23 redreni

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 20:57

I don't understand the point of the question. There's no rule against driver coaching in particular. The driver cannot be aided when he is driving. To my mind, strictly interpreted, that means you can't say anything at all to your driver during the race; all of the things teams say to drivers during racing are meant to be of assistance to the driver, otherwise the teams wouldn't say them.

 

I know I'm in the minority, but I can't see any real basis for being okay with some messages that aid the driver but being down on others. And there certainly isn't any basis for any such distinction in the regs. Personally I'm fine with whatever level of coaching a driver happens to find helpful. I don't think Jaques Villeneuve was a bad peddler, yet he used to have Jock Clear in his earhole literally telling him "go left" or "go right", like a Nascar spotter, on the first lap of races. But if anyone has a problem with teams talking to drivers and thinks it's covered by the regulation that says the drivers have to drive "unaided", then as far as I'm concerned those people should want all radio transmission from pit to car banned.

 

If I were a team boss I would quite possibly be willing to go to the ICA over this if necessary. What actually seems to have happened, as far as I can see, is the FIA started off threatening to ban pretty much everything except messages without which the drivers wouldn't be able to finish the race, and since then the teams have secured a specific exception to the "no coaching" rule for more or less everything they want to say to their drivers. I'm sure it's been agreed, formally or informally, that "this is good, keep doing this" is fine. 


Edited by redreni, 30 March 2015 - 20:58.


#24 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 21:20

When a driver is nervous about the pace of the car that is chasing him down, more pushing could easily destroy the tires but race engineer gave him the confidence to do what he was doing. So the race engineer stopped probable high tire degradation for Sebastian Vettel and that is driver aiding. Charlie can you hear me!?


Edited by RYARLE, 30 March 2015 - 21:28.


#25 Nemick

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 21:38

In my opinion, any commentary from the pit wall, be it advice on corner times, or just encouragement, is coaching. That said, I think the no coaching rule is ridiculous in a team sport.



#26 Spillage

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 21:44

It depends what they meant, really. If it was 'pace is good, you're faster than Hamilton' then I can't say I have a problem. If it was 'pace is good for the tyres' then I do - I want the driver to look after the tyres on his own. Similarly, Hamilton being told he had to do a certain laptime to catch Vettel by the end isn't driver coaching so long as he's not being told to do a certain laptime to make his tyres last.

#27 Exb

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 21:51

A reminder of what is not allowed:

Under FIA technical directive TD/041 messages concerning the following are not permitted (either by radio or pit board)

- Driving lines on the circuit.
- Contact with kerbs.
- Car set up parameters for specific corners.
- Comparative or absolute sector time detail of another driver.
- Speeds in corners compared to another driver.
- Gear selection compared with another driver.
- Gear selection in general.
- Braking points.
- Rate of braking compared to another driver.
- Rate of braking or application of brakes in general.
- Car stability under braking.
- Throttle application compared to another driver.
- Throttle application in general.
- Use of DRS compared with another driver.
- Use of any overtake button.
- Driving technique in general.

#28 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 21:51

It wasn't only Ferrari team radio. There were some debatable team radio from other teams as well.



#29 Exb

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 21:55

It wasn't only Ferrari team radio. There were some debatable team radio from other teams as well.


They were only debatable if they were about any of the things mentioned in my post above yours - everything else is allowed under the rules - whether you think they should be banned is another topic, the fact of the matter is the FIA and the rules don't.

#30 jonpollak

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 22:02

If you were to hear the words... "Bookends- Pumice Stone -West Germany" Then you'd have a case..

 

Until then..

Carry on, your doing just fine..(which is a synonym for 'Keep doing this, pace is good')

 

Jp



#31 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 22:10

 

A reminder of what is not allowed:

Under FIA technical directive TD/041 messages concerning the following are not permitted (either by radio or pit board)

- Driving lines on the circuit.
- Contact with kerbs.
- Car set up parameters for specific corners.
- Comparative or absolute sector time detail of another driver.
- Speeds in corners compared to another driver.
- Gear selection compared with another driver.
- Gear selection in general.
- Braking points.
- Rate of braking compared to another driver.
- Rate of braking or application of brakes in general.
- Car stability under braking.
- Throttle application compared to another driver.
- Throttle application in general.
- Use of DRS compared with another driver.
- Use of any overtake button.
- Driving technique in general.

Teams are wise enough to find a leeway. So obviously no team is going to say directly one of them in your list.

Again "Keep doing this, pace is good" could be related indirectly to the bold parts.


Edited by RYARLE, 30 March 2015 - 22:10.


#32 garagetinkerer

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 22:15

F***ing Vettel... cheated at RBR, still cheating that good for nothing /sarcasm



#33 tmekt

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 22:21

It's obviously coaching, come on, if he hadn't said that Seb would have forgotten to continue and just driven the car back into his pit garage!


Edited by tmekt, 30 March 2015 - 22:22.


#34 RockBrocaine

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 22:24

What specific info was given? It's same as Hamilton's engineer giving him deltas. He wasn't telling Hamilton how to drive, only if his pace is where it needs to be or not. Non-issue.



#35 Crossmax

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 22:36

When a driver is nervous about the pace of the car that is chasing him down, more pushing could easily destroy the tires but race engineer gave him the confidence to do what he was doing. So the race engineer stopped probable high tire degradation for Sebastian Vettel and that is driver aiding. Charlie can you hear me!?

What about all the messages to the Merc drivers about target lap times in order to catch Vettel? By your reasoning, that must be serious driver aiding, letting them know exactly how fast they need to drive.



#36 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 22:39

What about all the messages to the Merc drivers about target lap times in order to catch Vettel? By your reasoning, that must be serious driver aiding, letting them know exactly how fast they need to drive.

I said in one of my previous posts "It wasn't only Ferrari team radio. There were some debatable team radio from other teams as well." Here: http://forums.autosp...p/#entry7110169


Edited by RYARLE, 30 March 2015 - 22:40.


#37 Exb

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 22:41

Teams are wise enough to find a leeway. So obviously no team is going to say directly one of them in your list.
Again "Keep doing this, pace is good" could be related indirectly to the bold parts.


No it's not - the engineer is offering no help to the driver in how to improve the lap time/tyre wear etc.

For instance - using your theory that a message of 'everything OK' is coaching as the driver knows not to change anything (technique decided by the driver) what you are also implying is no message is telling them to change something - but what do they have to change? Lines, braking, lap time, gear through corner 2??? the list is almost infinite - so does the driver then start changing things 1 at a time until he gets a message from the engineer - what if he was doing everything right apart from his choice of braking points into turn 1, and he changes everything but that??? What if he gets paranoid his engineer hasn't radioed for 2 laps so thinks he needs to reduce his fuel usage when in fact it is fine.

Message or no message from the engineer the driver is not going to change what he is doing - I will use the example of Vettel as you have used it in your OP - do you think without the message from the engineer he would suddenly have changed something? He was no doubt going as fast as he thought he could to reach the target lap. The drivers are the ones that know how long the tyres will last - not the pitwall (Hulkenberg is a good example radioing into his team to tell them he wouldn't make the end - Lewis radioed in saying his rears were going). And yes, maybe it is a reassurance BUT it did not help get more performance out of the car.

Maybe I have mistook your post, if you are not implying there is cheating going on. If it is just down to what you consider to be driver coaching then fair enough, you are entitled to your own opinion.

#38 Crossmax

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 22:42

Coming to think about it, why are target lap times allowed to be communicated? Take away that, and the drivers will be more likely to push harder IMO.



#39 RainyAfterlifeDaylight

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Posted 30 March 2015 - 23:07

No it's not - the engineer is offering no help to the driver in how to improve the lap time/tyre wear etc.

For instance - using your theory that a message of 'everything OK' is coaching as the driver knows not to change anything (technique decided by the driver) what you are also implying is no message is telling them to change something - but what do they have to change? Lines, braking, lap time, gear through corner 2??? the list is almost infinite - so does the driver then start changing things 1 at a time until he gets a message from the engineer - what if he was doing everything right apart from his choice of braking points into turn 1, and he changes everything but that??? What if he gets paranoid his engineer hasn't radioed for 2 laps so thinks he needs to reduce his fuel usage when in fact it is fine.

Message or no message from the engineer the driver is not going to change what he is doing - I will use the example of Vettel as you have used it in your OP - do you think without the message from the engineer he would suddenly have changed something? He was no doubt going as fast as he thought he could to reach the target lap. The drivers are the ones that know how long the tyres will last - not the pitwall (Hulkenberg is a good example radioing into his team to tell them he wouldn't make the end - Lewis radioed in saying his rears were going). And yes, maybe it is a reassurance BUT it did not help get more performance out of the car.

Maybe I have mistook your post, if you are not implying there is cheating going on. If it is just down to what you consider to be driver coaching then fair enough, you are entitled to your own opinion.

It can be very complex and I have no idea what was the real intention of "Keep doing this, Pace is good" team radio. MAYBE as soon as Sebastian Vettel changed some settings, race engineer informed him indirectly it is the best settings, so don't change it and just continue". Who knows.

Tire management was just an example through lots of other examples and other settings can cause tire management difference as well and team can help in lots of areas indirectly instead of drivers.

My point is, the message of "Keep doing this, Pace is good" is pure aiding in itself. There were other messages from other teams as well that are debatable too.


Edited by RYARLE, 30 March 2015 - 23:10.


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#40 Exb

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 00:11

It can be very complex and I have no idea what was the real intention of "Keep doing this, Pace is good" team radio. MAYBE as soon as Sebastian Vettel changed some settings, race engineer informed him indirectly it is the best settings, so don't change it and just continue". Who knows.
Tire management was just an example through lots of other examples and other settings can cause tire management difference as well and team can help in lots of areas indirectly instead of drivers.
My point is, the message of "Keep doing this, Pace is good" is pure aiding in itself. There were other messages from other teams as well that are debatable too.

But that's kind of my point - there are so many things that can be altered, what your saying suggests at a driver altering all of these parameters until he hits the best settings and receives the message - that is just not possible because so much would be put wrong first.

 

Keeping it simple, there are only 3 things that can be changed -1) (fuel use) option A (save), B (normal) C (boost)  2) Tyre use A (nurse) B (normal) C (Push them) 3) Brakes A (lighter use - brake earlier) B(normal) C (brake later)

 

Driver is 1B 2B 3B - engineer thinks his brake wear is too high so never sends an OK. Driver knows he has to change something so does 1A 2A 3A - no radio, OK so 1A, 2B 3B no radio, tries 1B 2A 3B - no radio. by this point he has lost time conserving the wrong things and the 2nd place driver is looming up in his mirrors - drivers thinks, oh no what if I've made a mistake and there was no radio call as I was meant to push as mr 2nd is catching - lets try 1C 2C 3C, what still no radio - god damn it what am I supposed to do here???

 

Even with just 3 changeable items with 3 options each there is over 25 different outcomes. I get what your saying but I just don't think it is possible to use a simple OK to do what you are suggesting.



#41 Kulturen

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 01:20

OP is trying to convince us that this post is in general and not about Vettel/Ferrari and yet keeps bringing up Vettel/Ferrari by name, post after post.

 

The keep doing what you're doing is perfectly fine because they ARE whether you liked it or not coached on STRATEGY. The team does the strategy and is allowed obviously to pass along information on whether the driver is on target or not. As someone else said, Hamilton and I'm sure more if not everyone else, was getting exact target laptimes.



#42 DrF

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 03:19

I blame Nico Rosberg for this stupid rule and this thread.

He wasn't half moaning about the lack of support from his RE after the race!

Agree it's a stupid rule and very difficult to manage.

#43 peroa

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 05:29

I thought the idea wasn't to prevent the team offering generally available info, I thought it was to prevent them using telemetry to provide driver coaching.

Saying a given bit of track is wetter or drier doesn't strike me as 'advising on lines'. Not worth arguing about though.

But he didn't ask if the corner(s) was wet or dry, he asked which line(s) to use.

A fundamental difference.



#44 HoldenRT

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 05:56

If you can't say this, then it's a joke.
The phrase "keep doing this" is just encouragement, and nothing to do with coaching.

 

Have never understood the changes in the first place.  Agree it's a joke, that it's even in question.

 

Maybe they should be banned from talking to their race engineer the entire weekend, or being able to see telemetry of the car?

 

All of the sports in the world, where there is a timeout or halftime break and the coach talks to the player or the team is cheating?



#45 teejay

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 07:00

FIA PRO FERRARI ONCE AGAIN



#46 CoolBreeze

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 07:03

nope.



#47 V666

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 07:42

I see nothing wrong in a driver being told target lap times and his actual lap time, it's up to him to find the time though. The tyres are so weak in this era that it's a necessity to be told this information otherwise the races would become a lottery IMO.

#48 nosecone

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 08:42

Only advice regarding racing lines should  be banned IMO. Encouraging your driver or saying whether he has to save fuel or tyres should be allowed.


Edited by nosecone, 01 April 2015 - 08:43.


#49 Elba

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 08:51

It can be very complex and I have no idea what was the real intention of "Keep doing this, Pace is good" team radio. MAYBE as soon as Sebastian Vettel changed some settings, race engineer informed him indirectly it is the best settings, so don't change it and just continue". Who knows.

Well you answered your own question there, if the intention isn't clear and and the stewards don't know or can't prove its blatant driver coaching then the team/driver should be presumed innocent.