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Active Tyre/Tire Pressure Management?


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#1 Illuminati

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 05:39

I've been wondering, if they give drivers in F1 so many knobs to turn, why don't they give them something like active tire pressure management?

Now I agree its obviously not the easiest thing to incorporate but at the same time, neither were most of the technologies they use.

 

The amount of money they spend on aero bits which are annoyingly miniscule and expensive (from the point of manufacture and computation) just doesnt seem reasonable. I really detest the front wings with their stacked planes and turning vanes and all around the car with their a-little-slit-here and a-little-turn-there. Every time I check the blogs with aero updates for different teams, I can't roll my eyes any harder.

Though I might not have a lot of knowledge of aerodynamics, I would think that the level at which they are trying to extract a benefit is well beyond the trickle down to the automotive realm.

 

I would really love to see a single plane simple wing structure come back. None of these stupid wings with all their sharp edges where drivers go Ben-Hur-ing their way around a track. A requirement of the wing design should be to NOT puncture someones tire!

 

Coming back to my suggestion on Active Tire Pressure Management. I personally think it can contribute a lot more significantly to the automotive sector for safety, fuel economy, etc.

 

Do you see any demerits?

 



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#2 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 06:35

The technology to deflate and inflate a tyre probably while racing isn't worth the (possible) weight penalty (or benefit) and it probably can not be made small enough as they don't see a reason to do it.... (Could be (already) banned?)

 

Tyre pressures are monitored from the pits and they probably have a very good idea what pressures to run at especially as they are nitrogen filled so the pressure is very stable across a wider temperature range...



#3 Catalina Park

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 08:58

Are they nitrogen filled? Last I heard (probably about ten years ago) they were using dry air.



#4 GrumpyYoungMan

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 12:58

Are they nitrogen filled? Last I heard (probably about ten years ago) they were using dry air.

 

12.7  Treatment of tyres :
12.7.1  Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2  Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its
inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3  The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating
elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface

 

Source: FIA Technical Regulations



#5 Fat Boy

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 16:00

Cavemen brought down plenty of mammoths.

 

http://www.nascar.co...sprint-cup.html



#6 desmo

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 18:00

There must be numerous possible ways to get a controlled leakdown in a tubeless tire and I wouldn't want to be the guy tasked with scrutineering against it.  Do F1 tires suffer from the same pressure build up issues?  I suspect the NASCAR guys are likely smarter than the F1 guys when it comes to stuff like this. 



#7 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 19:06

In a way that skirts the rules or just the technology itself? Aren't we just talking bleeder/blowoff valve stems? Those alone would be a decent advantage.



#8 Fat Boy

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Posted 31 March 2015 - 21:02

There must be numerous possible ways to get a controlled leakdown in a tubeless tire and I wouldn't want to be the guy tasked with scrutineering against it.  Do F1 tires suffer from the same pressure build up issues?  I suspect the NASCAR guys are likely smarter than the F1 guys when it comes to stuff like this. 

 

I think F1 probably has few tire pressure related issues because they have tire warmers. The pressure delta from pit lane to on track is much less. They have fewer yellows to deal with and ultimately, the tires on an F1 car live an easier life than a Cup car on an oval.

 

The tires on a Cup car on a short oval (specifically at night) run a huge pressure swing. You see them on stickers during a yellow with the left side sidewalls wrinkling like a drag slick. In 5 laps at speed they are up to pressure and at full speed. It's pretty damned impressive.

 

Yes, they could do pressure bleeds easier/better with mechanical bleed valves than with pin-holes in the sidewall, but those are illegal. Sidewall pin-holes are nearly impossible to police and apparently do a pretty good job of controlling over-pressuring. Who woulda' thunk it?



#9 desmo

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 01:19

Make them put a shot of sealant slime in the last fill before they hit the track? That'd make a real mess for the tire guys to deal with. I don't know what else you could do.



#10 Peter0Scandlyn

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 03:01

Getting a bit O/T here but whatever you do, don't hurt you eyes looking at any of the 2015 IndyCar creations.

Hell, bits even fly off them metres and metres away and boof, a poor, unsuspecting spectator gets taken out.  ):



#11 Illuminati

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 05:43

1) I guess most of you will remember that Ferrari did use a different sort of gas mixture for their tires so probably air or nitrogen weren't the only solutions before.

http://www.racecar-e...-f2007-secrets/

 

2) As the NASCAR guys have holes to help maintain tire pressures, what exactly would you do if they cooled down?

    Example - i) An F1 car during a rainy restart?

                     ii) Your daily driver in the morning. There is a pretty decent change in tires pressure within a few minutes of driving.

 

So with all this considered, I was asking about incorporating a device which has a lot more potential to trickle down to my car in a few years versus a tight turning vane on a front wing which my car doesn't have. (But I still have 4 tires)

Even a case like being bogged down in snow etc gives you the opportunity to deflate for the traction and re-inflate to go.

And obvious fuel economy benefits of driving with the right tire pressures at all times.

 

I have no agenda here and i'm not trying to hawk my wares....

Just asking if you think this would makes it way to your car better than the aero gimmickry of F1?            



#12 blkirk

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 13:24

Back in the late 90's/early 00's, some of the CART teams had pressure bleed valve stems.  The tire would go on the car at full operating pressure, and as the tire warmed up, the valve would maintain the pressure.  Obviously this only worked on pitstops.  If there was a full-course yellow, the tire temp and pressure would drop, but it wouldn't be any more of a disadvantage than a car without the valves.  So there was an advantage on the out lap after the pitstop, but no disadvantage during restarts.

 

But that system only worked one way.  It let excess air out, but it couldn't put air in.  If you want to do both, look no further than the first generation Hummer with CTIS (Central Tire Inflation System).  The driver of a Hummer can change tire pressure at will while the vehicle is in motion.



#13 Fat Boy

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 16:47

Make them put a shot of sealant slime in the last fill before they hit the track? That'd make a real mess for the tire guys to deal with. I don't know what else you could do.

 

How about just let them race? If they start wrecking cars because they're doing it wrong, then they'll stop.

 

As far as yellow flag laps go, they aren't that big of a deal. The real issue is the starting pressure when the tires are completely cold. The starting pressures have to be very low which can hurt tires and spin them on the rim. When the cars have been at racing pace and then slowed due to a caution period, they'll still have more pressure than when dead cold. The best way to get pressure into tires is with the brakes. They get the wheels hot and it all goes in the right direction. It's plenty easy to do that during a yellow.



#14 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 18:27

How about just let them race? If they start wrecking cars because they're doing it wrong, then they'll stop.

 

 

How many races of blaming the tires and not the teams/setups/tricks do we have to put up with in this scenario?



#15 Greg Locock

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 06:05

 look no further than the first generation Hummer with CTIS (Central Tire Inflation System).  The driver of a Hummer can change tire pressure at will while the vehicle is in motion.

 

 

Good to hear Hummer employs WW2 technology.



#16 gruntguru

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 06:19

:)

I suppose a hummer is a war machine.



#17 blkirk

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 13:03

Good to hear Hummer employs WW2 technology.

The earliest CTIS reference I could find was for the Tatra T813 in 1967.  I'd love to hear who had it before then, if you care to share you info.



#18 Fat Boy

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 15:57

How many races of blaming the tires and not the teams/setups/tricks do we have to put up with in this scenario?

 

About the same as before. Keep in mind, they've been doing this for years, it's just now become public. Other series have been using legal bleeders much longer.



#19 Greg Locock

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 22:48

DUKW



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#20 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 23:29

I still do not understand the fixation with very low starting pressures. While an endurance race for me was about 25 laps normally [ though have done driver change 60 lap races,, on ONE set of tyres]. I have always started a few pounds light [4-6 psi] and use proper warm up procedures . And the tyres never seemed to go over the optimum by more than 2-3 lb. So adjust for the next start. And the occasional yellow periods keep weaving and transferring brake heat.

Usually in a longer race you could feel the tread on the rears start to get a bit squirmy so you would drive very straight and carefully for a lap or so to bring them back. This on radials, cross plys, or bias belt and several different brands too.

I have seen evidence of low starting pressures, tyres seperated [steel belt especially] and a pile of loose case material in the tyre when it comes off. And often the 'x ing' on the walls from case flex. Though many are supposed to do that anyway. V8 Stupid cars have a mininum pressure now. The Dunlop guy was sick of copping the blame for stupid team 'tactics'. Half flat tyre and run over kerbs and the tyre seperates. DoooOH

 

With dirt tyres the pressure difference for me was negligible. Having only 200 rwhp hardly built up the pressures normally though black squeaky tracks would to a degree. Though burn the tread surface far worse! Some of those tyres go flat in a day. I have had them go down 10lb in a few hours stretching them. [30 lb and leave them in the sun to gain an inch or so of stagger. They usually go back to their original diameter in a few hours at normal 6-10 lb]

Interestingly most of those tyres are porous. Get em wet and watch the bubbles!

Though road race tyres will occasionally do the same, especially wets . Though you see that because they are wet!

 

I generally used bottled industrial  air. It is drier and resolves some issues. And is more consistent.  The fitters would pump them up and I would let them down again and refill them.  And I also used it to run the rattle gun, air drill and grinder! Usually about one 'E' a meeting.

Proper dehumidified was way harder to get and far more expensive.



#21 Fat Boy

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Posted 04 April 2015 - 02:28

I still do not understand the fixation with very low starting pressures.

 

Ummmm, faster laps? Remember, I'm talking about Cup Stock cars. Unless you've got a good bit of experience with those particular animals, you're going to want to stay in your own lane.



#22 munks

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Posted 05 April 2015 - 03:21

DUKW

Interesting. I used to get yearly rides in one as a kid, and never knew it had this feature.