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Racing series for women?


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#1 HistoryFan

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 12:43

Bernie Ecclestone's new idea: Creating a racing series for women drivers. I thought there was a Formula Series for women in the past, but I didn't find anything about that. Has anybody details about this series?

 

Were there every racing series just for women drivers?



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#2 Peter Morley

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 13:16

Formula Woman ran from 2004 to 2007 in the UK.

It was a one make series where they all drove Mazda RX8s.

The first year was won by Natasha Firman, Ralph's daughter...



#3 bill p

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 13:16

Bernie Ecclestone's new idea: Creating a racing series for women drivers. I thought there was a Formula Series for women in the past, but I didn't find anything about that. Has anybody details about this series?
 
Were there every racing series just for women drivers?


First off, www.bwrdc.co.uk on Google - not hard to find

Also races at Brooklands pre-war, etc etc

#4 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 13:22

Formula Woman - only covers the 2004 season though.

 

There was also a women-only series using Renault Juvaquatres run in France in 1939. Used to be featured on a French website which seems to have disappeared.

 

And the Speederettes - an article on the website of LotusElise of this parish.



#5 proviz

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 13:38

Not a race series, but the most notable women-only motor sport event I can think of was Rallye Paris-St.Raphael Feminin, which ran from 1929 to 1974.



#6 Tim Murray

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 13:38

There was also the Faberge Fiesta Challenge, run in 1979 with a good prize fund. There were six races and six rallies, and the series brought names such as Geunda Eadie, Jayne Neate and Louise Aitken into top-level motor sport. More details below, again from Lotus Elise's Speedqueens site:

http://speedqueens.b...llenge.html?m=1

#7 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 16:02

A couple of friends competed in the "Race for a Record" ladies race at Silverstone last November organised by the BWRDC. More recently I was talking to another lady driver and asked why she had not entered and she was quite scathing on the basis that she wanted to compete on equal terms with men.

Motorsport is one of only two types of sport where than happens of course.



#8 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 16:24

In 1970 there was the Ford Find a Lady Rallycross Champion won by Gillian Fortesque Thomas (now Goldsmith) and still racing in Aston Martins. Like many successful lady drivers she was a successful horsewoman.

Of the Fiesta girls only Jayne Neate (Wignall) is sitll competing - with considerable success in historic rallies.



#9 Rob29

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 17:00

Formula Woman ran from 2004 to 2007 in the UK.

It was a one make series where they all drove Mazda RX8s.

The first year was won by Natasha Firman, Ralph's daughter...

second year they used Caterhams.Don;t think any of these ladies ever made into regular racing? Not sure what bernie is proposing here-F1 teams to provide a 3rd car  for a female race on sunday morning? :clap:



#10 Rob G

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 17:19

There was also the Women's Global GT Series in 1999-2000, in which they raced in identically-prepared Panoz Esperantes. It was a support series for the ALMS.



#11 bsc

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Posted 01 April 2015 - 17:33

second year they used Caterhams.Don;t think any of these ladies ever made into regular racing?

A number made the transition into 'normal' club racing, although there was a certain preference for Lotus-7 type racing. From memory and a quick flick through some old programmes, I think the list includes:

 

Pippa Cow (MG Midgets), Sarah Bennett-Baggs (a variety of Porsches, plus some GT Cup); Sian Stafford-Atkinson (Locosts); Lauren Blighton (Toyota MR2s); Lucy Redding (Caterhams); Anne Ballantyne (sprinting in a Westfield); Yolande Humphreys (Caterhams); Michelle Haywood (Clubmans); Amanda Black (Caterhams and Britcar); Dawn Boyd (a variety of saloon series); Emily Fletcher (Ginettas); Jennifer Grace (Caterhams); and Jennifer Garratt (Caterhams). 

 

As part of her prize for winning the first title, Natasha Firman shared a Mazda with Mark Ticehurst in the 2005 Britcar series. I don't think she has raced since though.



#12 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 08:16

http://www.lotuscars...cing/ladies-cup



#13 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 08:59

Pippa Cow is still racing MGs, I think a ZR last year. Heather Baillie did the Gobal GT series a few years ago.  Never heard of the FIA Lotus Ladies Champiosnhip although it does not look to be well supported.



#14 Stephen W

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Posted 02 April 2015 - 09:21

Several championships still have an overall Ladies Trophy for the best placed lady driver and in Hillclimbing a lot of venues still maintain Ladies Records. 

 

I do find it rather odd that the BWRDC don't seem to have any mention of Patsy Burt still the only woman to win an MSA/RAC British National Championship.



#15 LotusElise

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 17:17

The Lotus Ladies' Cup was doing pretty well, but its future looks in danger after it got pulled part-way through last season, due to some sort of disagreement with the Hungarian motorsport federation, I think.

 

We've also had the Shellsport Escort Series in the late 1970s, which was associated with the BWRDC and attracted decent fields, including Divina Galica and Lella Lombardi.

 

I've never heard of a women-only single-seater championship. They have all used saloons, or production sportscars.



#16 Rob29

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 06:42

Pippa Cow is still racing MGs, I think a ZR last year. Heather Baillie did the Gobal GT series a few years ago.  Never heard of the FIA Lotus Ladies Champiosnhip although it does not look to be well supported.

Curious-can find no mention of Heather in Speenqueens otherwise brilliant list of hundreds of laidies.Lastt raced to my knowledge in md 90s by which time was Heather McAlpine


Edited by Rob29, 07 April 2015 - 07:43.


#17 Stephen W

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 07:19

There are some glaring omissions.



#18 LotusElise

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 09:09

Curious-can find no mention of Heather in Speenqueens otherwise brilliant list of hundreds of laidies.Lastt raced to my knowledge in md 90s by which time was Heather McAlpine

 

She is in there. http://speedqueens.b...ers-around.html

 

Stephen, who were you thinking of that I've missed (bearing in mind that Speedqueens doesn't cover drag racing, speed eventing or rally co-drivers at the moment)?

I'm always on the lookout for new ladies to write about.



#19 BRG

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 11:42

That's a good site; I hadn't seen it before.  It ought to be compulsory reading for some of the knuckle-draggers on this forum.  

 

Some of the most impressive female drivers are the ones that just quietly got on with it under the radar and without making or encouraging any interest in their gender. Like Lillian Brynner or Claudia Hurtgen, who competed on equal terms with the rest and did well.   

 

I note that you don't do female rally co-drivers.  Probably as well, since that is the area of motorsport where women are by the most numerous and successful and you might need a whole new site to fit them all in!.  Rallying has since the earliest days readily accepted female competitors, in either seat, and in my experience there has never been much prejudice or discrimination at all.  But then, rallying was always more enlightened than the circuit boyos!



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#20 Stephen W

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 08:25

Stephen, who were you thinking of that I've missed (bearing in mind that Speedqueens doesn't cover drag racing, speed eventing or rally co-drivers at the moment)?

I'm always on the lookout for new ladies to write about.

 

Seeing as some of the great women competitors were in Drag Racing, Speed Events and Navigated on Rallies that in itself is a glaring omission however i noticed that Agnes Mickel gets a mention!

 

As for Racing Drivers surely Anita Taylor deserves a mention!

 

Roz Prior in Drag Racing and Patsy Burt in "Speed Events" both stand out as glaring omissions from the past whilst from current day speed events Lynn Owen, Sue Young and Sandra Tomlin all deserve recognition.

 

:wave:   


Edited by Stephen W, 08 April 2015 - 08:26.


#21 Tim Murray

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 08:47

As for Racing Drivers surely Anita Taylor deserves a mention!


... and gets it:

http://speedqueens.b...r-matthews.html
 

Roz Prior in Drag Racing and Patsy Burt in "Speed Events" ... 
:wave:


Patsy has a paragraph on this page:

http://speedqueens.b...after-1950.html

#22 LotusElise

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 20:16

The Anita article is one of the most read posts on there. She is obviously still remembered fondly. :D

 

I decided not to cover rally navigators as there are lots and lots of them, with very little information about them available. If I decided to reverse this, I would have to spend all of my time researching and writing about them, to do the subject justice.

 

Sprints and hillclimbs are not sufficiently well covered by the media for me to work with. However, drivers who also compete in circuit racing or rallying will get a look-in.

 

As for drag racing, it's not something I follow or really know much about. The drag "scene" is quite separate from the rest of motorsport. The same goes for drifting.



#23 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 08 April 2015 - 22:39

A couple of friends competed in the "Race for a Record" ladies race at Silverstone last November organised by the BWRDC. More recently I was talking to another lady driver and asked why she had not entered and she was quite scathing on the basis that she wanted to compete on equal terms with men.

Motorsport is one of only two types of sport where than happens of course.

Actually most wish to compete with all.

Ladies only is actually quite sexist! And has happened quite regularly over the decades in all forms of motorsport.

Within reason women can and do compete 100% equally. In some categories that require anorexic drivers women being smaller almost have an advantage being [often] naturally smaller. It ios a bit harder though for women to get a drive. Though at club and national level like everyone else is buy your own. And hopefully find some good help.

 

Watching some Drag Racing on the weekend and is some categories for top 8 there was as many women as men. 

In the past Shirley Muldowney and Rachelle Splatt  were better than most.


Edited by Lee Nicolle, 08 April 2015 - 22:44.


#24 sjakie

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 12:17

The WRC had a Ladies Cup in the early '90's. Louise Aitken-Walker won it in 1990 if my memory serves me correctly.



#25 nexfast

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Posted 09 April 2015 - 23:37

I think Lotus Elise/Rachel has done a huge amount of research and her blog is a fantastic source of information on a lot of sometimes quite obscure lady drivers. It is very complete under the  parameters she established (after all it is her blog) and it is difficult really to find any glaring omission. And she covers a wide geographical spectrum from Mexico to Latvia, from the Philippines to Senegal. Are some names missing? Sure, but how many people here are familiar with Menchie Francisco, Nicole Solano, Claudia Fuentes, Pia Boren, Rayna Aranha or the delightfully-named Rally Marina to quote a few I believe she has not yet covered? I hope she keeps the good work rolling.



#26 MKI220

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 00:06

In Australia we had a Mazda 121 (jellybean car) series in the 90s. I think it ran as a support at some rounds to GrpA / V8 supercars. There was a couple of very big accidents including one on the Sandown front straight from what I can recall. May of lasted one or maximum 2 seasons.

#27 ktrhe

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 11:30

In Germany was a Racing Series called German Ford Fiesta Ladies Cup. Duration from 1982 till 1989.



#28 chunder27

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 12:02

Why do so many people forget Michele Mouton? and Pat Moss?

 

Two of the very best drivers of their generation let alone women drivers.

 

Michele certanly motivated her peers like Rohrl to beat her and although she had a car advantage at times, she was competitive with her peers in similar cars on any surface, and was quick before that in FIATS and the like. As was Louise, who cna ever forget the RAC when she was well inside the top 10 in a 205.

 

In some of the racing I watch on short ovals the full contact junior formula is called Ministox, they are full contact Minis and the formula has been dominated by girls for the last two years, they are just as aggressive, just as quick and ruthless as the boys, sometimes more. The trouble is they have to move on at 15 and then are often lost to teenage distractions and the harder, rougher world of the adult contact formulae.

 

But it proves that given the chance there is absolutely no difference between girls and boys in a junior formula. If they are well backed, theyc an drive as fast as boys, no question.

 

Earlier posts mention drag racing, a category where women have been just as good over many years, Shirley, Anjelle whatsher face, Vivica Averstedt, Monica Aberg, all class winners in seriously powerful cars. But the snobs will say thats coz there are no corners, hogwash! 

 

As there would not be if enough of them got into karting or the junior formula, it's just that as is the case with some ethnic groups, there is no interest from many of them to WANT to get involved.

 

And to be honest their role models are not great, Susie is there and getting chances due to who she is married to largely, Danica is there because she is perhaps the quicker of the women drivers but largely as a marketing exercise for a huge company and also being hot hasn't hurt her appeal.  Legge is an embarassment in anything, and that dubious decision by Lotus to take up a driver who is so utterly hopeless just makes these decisions seem ever more cretinous.

 

Hardly a good example.



#29 LotusElise

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 17:06

Michele Mouton and Pat Moss weren't known for competing in all-female series, although Michele did do the Paris-St Raphael at least once, and they were both involved with the all-female Team Aseptogyl. They are talked about plenty elsewhere on here.

 

There are quite a few videos of the Mazda 121 Challenge on Youtube, for the curious, including the first round, here.

The Challenge also has its own little article on Speedqueens, with an entry list. 



#30 kayemod

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 19:37

Danica is there because she is perhaps the quicker of the women drivers but largely as a marketing exercise for a huge company and also being hot hasn't hurt her appeal.

 

I'm not an expert on current US racing, but didn't Danica have a big unfair weight advantage in Indycars over almost everyone she was racing? This may be wrong, but I was told by a Yank friend that Indycars are weighed in scrutineering sans driver, so that would give Danica a huge advantage over a big guy like Paul Tracy. Can someone who's more clued up on the subject tell us if this is correct?



#31 Tomas Karlsson

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Posted 13 April 2015 - 18:38

There has been a couple of series in Sweden only for woman drivers, that I can recall. One in the middle of the Seventies where all were driving Minis. And one later when they all were driving Renault 5. I don't remember exactly for how long, but they were going on for quite some time. Today the girls are competing with the boys.

Like they did before. We had a good female driver in the Sixties, Barbara Johansson, who even won a round of the Swedish Championship.



#32 DogEarred

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Posted 13 April 2015 - 20:38

I'm not an expert on current US racing, but didn't Danica have a big unfair weight advantage in Indycars over almost everyone she was racing? This may be wrong, but I was told by a Yank friend that Indycars are weighed in scrutineering sans driver, so that would give Danica a huge advantage over a big guy like Paul Tracy. Can someone who's more clued up on the subject tell us if this is correct?

 

Not only a weight advantage - a brain advantage too.....



#33 Charlieman

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Posted 13 April 2015 - 20:46

I'm not an expert on current US racing, but didn't Danica have a big unfair weight advantage in Indycars over almost everyone she was racing? This may be wrong, but I was told by a Yank friend that Indycars are weighed in scrutineering sans driver, so that would give Danica a huge advantage over a big guy like Paul Tracy. Can someone who's more clued up on the subject tell us if this is correct?

Is that really "unfair", Rob? One stone = 14 pounds =~ 6.4kg. Small compared to the mass of an F1 or Indy style car with fuel. F1 engineers tell broadcasters that x kg of mass costs y seconds per lap in a perfect world. But we don't live in simulator world, and the driver makes a difference based on perspicacity. That is what they are payed for.

 

---

Pat Moss married Erik Carlsson. Skinny rallying sister of a famous racing driver married a chunky Swede rally driver. Chunky Swede's rallying career overlapped with that of of his wife, but we can't assume much. International Rallies had changed too much. Two great Rally drivers.



#34 LotusElise

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Posted 13 April 2015 - 21:59

Pat Moss was many things, but she was never skinny. Fast, yes. Skilled, yes. A rally winner, certainly. Slim, not so much.



#35 kayemod

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Posted 13 April 2015 - 22:29

Is that really "unfair", Rob? One stone = 14 pounds =~ 6.4kg. Small compared to the mass of an F1 or Indy style car with fuel. F1 engineers tell broadcasters that x kg of mass costs y seconds per lap in a perfect world. But we don't live in simulator world, and the driver makes a difference based on perspicacity. That is what they are payed for.

 

 

I'll agree that "unfair" is perhaps not the best way to express this, but at a guess Danica weighs 9 stone or 58 kilos, possibly even less, whereas a guy like Paul Tracy could easily be 17 stone  or around 109 kilos. Of course, It's not in any way Danica's fault that she's small and light, but 51 kilos is a massive difference, I'm guessing at their weights of course, but I don't think I'm very far out. This gives Danica a very large advantage over practically everyone else she's racing against when race weights don't include that of the driver, in no way her fault, but that's some way from being a level playing field, so how can we rate her skills?. She's clearly a more than competent driver, I give her full credit for that, but she's had a lot less success since she moved to NASCAR, where with much heaver cars, her light weight gives her only a very small advantage over the rest of the field, if indeed any advantage at all, her lack of strength compared to most of the Good Ol' Boys probably has a much greater effect, those are big heavy cars, and most US categories don't allow power steering. Her record when she raced in UK F3 wasn't anything special either. To take just one name from those that have been mentioned, Michelle Mouton had no such built-in advantage, she raced on equal terms with male contestants, and she often beat them. This suggests to me that Michelle was in a different league skill-wise than Danica



#36 Charlieman

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Posted 13 April 2015 - 23:58

I'll agree that "unfair" is perhaps not the best way to express this, but at a guess Danica weighs 9 stone or 58 kilos, possibly even less, whereas a guy like Paul Tracy could easily be 17 stone  or around 109 kilos. Of course, It's not in any way Danica's fault that she's small and light, but 51 kilos is a massive difference, I'm guessing at their weights of course, but I don't think I'm very far out. This gives Danica a very large advantage over practically everyone else she's racing against when race weights don't include that of the driver, in no way her fault, but that's some way from being a level playing field, so how can we rate her skills?.

What is the "level playing field"? Most of the time, you weigh the car (as light as possible) and then you add the driver. When driver mass is significant to performance, it still requires a good driver to deliver the benefit. 

 

Jose Frolian Gonzalez was the first driver to win a championship GP in a Ferrari. He was a bit chubby. Faster than most.



#37 Charlieman

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 00:09

Pat Moss was many things, but she was never skinny. Fast, yes. Skilled, yes. A rally winner, certainly. Slim, not so much.

I was trying to be polite. When you look at photos of Pat Moss and Stirling Moss from the late 1950s, and there are a few when they are side by side, they share the same build. Would "athletic" be more pertinent as a description?



#38 Stephen W

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 08:19

Next thing that'll happen is someone will suggest installing ballast in the cars to act as a handicap!

 

Sounds far too much like horse racing and BTCC for my liking.

 

:eek:



#39 kayemod

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 08:38

Next thing that'll happen is someone will suggest installing ballast in the cars to act as a handicap!

 

Sounds far too much like horse racing and BTCC for my liking.

 

:eek:

 

True in a way, but every car starts an F1 race weighing exactly the same, unless the driver is heavy, when it would exceed the minimum by a few kilos, surely the antithesis of handicapping. Look at it this way, suppose a Marussia left the grid weighing 51 kilos less than a Mercedes. The only times Nico and Lewis would see whichever super lightweight pay-driver the team were employing, would be when he/she lapped them. I'd love to see more women racing, but it has to be a fair fight, otherwise it's meaningless, that's what I meant by "a level playing field". No idea whether Danica ever received a serious F1 offer, but with her weight advantage gone, without some pretty hefty positive discrimination she'd have been struggling to even qualify. I'm sure she could have worked all that out for herself.



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#40 LotusElise

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 10:09

I'll agree that "unfair" is perhaps not the best way to express this, but at a guess Danica weighs 9 stone or 58 kilos, possibly even less, whereas a guy like Paul Tracy could easily be 17 stone  or around 109 kilos. Of course, It's not in any way Danica's fault that she's small and light, but 51 kilos is a massive difference, I'm guessing at their weights of course, but I don't think I'm very far out. This gives Danica a very large advantage over practically everyone else she's racing against when race weights don't include that of the driver, in no way her fault, but that's some way from being a level playing field, so how can we rate her skills?. She's clearly a more than competent driver, I give her full credit for that, but she's had a lot less success since she moved to NASCAR, where with much heaver cars, her light weight gives her only a very small advantage over the rest of the field, if indeed any advantage at all, her lack of strength compared to most of the Good Ol' Boys probably has a much greater effect, those are big heavy cars, and most US categories don't allow power steering. Her record when she raced in UK F3 wasn't anything special either. To take just one name from those that have been mentioned, Michelle Mouton had no such built-in advantage, she raced on equal terms with male contestants, and she often beat them. This suggests to me that Michelle was in a different league skill-wise than Danica

 

Danica is smaller than me. She's more like 48 or 50 kilos at most, or she was during her IRL days. Paul Tracy isn't 17st either, he's not that tall and not that hefty. 13st max.

 

Interestingly, Gilles Villeneuve and Patrick Depailler only weighed about 50 kilos each. No-one claims they had a weight advantage against the likes of big-boned Alan Jones or Jody Scheckter, or 6ft James Hunt or Ronnie Peterson. 



#41 kayemod

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 10:21

Danica is smaller than me. She's more like 48 or 50 kilos at most, or she was during her IRL days. Paul Tracy isn't 17st either, he's not that tall and not that hefty. 13st max.

 

Interestingly, Gilles Villeneuve and Patrick Depailler only weighed about 50 kilos each. No-one claims they had a weight advantage against the likes of big-boned Alan Jones or Jody Scheckter, or 6ft James Hunt or Ronnie Peterson. 

 

I've never met either of those two, but I'll take your word for it.

 

The small stature of Gilles and Patrick wouldn't have given them any advantage in F1 and some other categories, but were they really that light? Their cars would have had to be ballasted to meet the minimum F1 weight limit, so a level playing field I think. As I've already said, more women in racing at high levels would be a very good thing, but any kind of positive discrimination would be demeaning, they just wouldn't be taken seriously, so what's the answer?



#42 Tim Murray

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 10:28

According to his website Tracy weighs (or perhaps used to weigh in his racing days) 190 lb (86 kg/13 st 8 lb) and is 5' 10" tall:

http://www.paultracy...pt_profile.html

Her Wiki profile gives Danica's weight as 100 lb (45 kg/7 st 2 lb)and her height as 5' 2":

http://en.wikipedia..../Danica_Patrick

Edited by Tim Murray, 14 April 2015 - 10:35.


#43 kayemod

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 10:40

Some thoughts on the subject from Justin Wilson.

 

Patrick, Sarah Fisher (5-3, 120) and Milka Duno (5-4, 120) are the lightest drivers listed in the IndyCar Series media guide. The lightest male driver is Alex Lloyd (5-7, 125). Lighter cars can be quicker and use less fuel.

"In every form of motorsport I've come across, especially Formula One, the weight is so critical (to a car's performance)," said Wilson, one of several former Champ Car World Series drivers making their IndyCar Series debut. "Usually on a road course, 10 pounds equals one-tenth of a second, so if you're 100 pounds heavier than somebody it's a second a lap you're giving away.

"Champ Car always had a great rule," said Graham Rahal, 6-2, 175, and another former Champ Car driver. "The heaviest driver, everybody's got to equal his weight."

Patrick thinks the IndyCar Series should takes its cue regarding weight from other sports.

"There's no weight limit in football," she said Thursday. "There's no height limit in basketball.

"And what about the strength aspect? What are they doing to fix that? As a smaller driver, I have to work harder in that area."

NASCAR's Sprint Cup Series takes a driver's weight into consideration. The minimum weight for its stock cars, 3,450 pounds, is based on a 200-pound driver. If a driver weighs less than 200, weight is added in 2-pound increments up to a maximum of 50 pounds.

In 2005, driver Robby Gordon said Patrick's light weight was an advantage in the Indy 500 and said he would not race against her at Indy unless a weight-equalization rule was put into use".

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In no way am I knocking Danica Patrick's achievements, but this can't be ignored when assessing her against her male and female contemporaries.
 


#44 Tomas Karlsson

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 10:46

It seems my memory hadn't got it all quite right. But the first lady series in Sweden was the "Lee Cooper Mini Lady Cup" that started in 1976. The girls all drove Minis and Birgitta Uppling was the first winner.

The ladies series in the Eighties was for small Lancias, not Renault as I first wrote. Saab worked together with Fiat in those days and Lancia was sold through Saab's dealerships. Ex-kartist Nettan Lindgren was the big star in that series.



#45 Vitesse2

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 10:52

I think PT may have put on a pound or two ... this is from Sunday.

 

tbellnola.jpg?w=320

 

Here he is with Our Noige and Scott Maxwell last year.

 

TracyMansellMaxwell.JPG



#46 PCC

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 13:01

...but it has to be a fair fight, otherwise it's meaningless, that's what I meant by "a level playing field".

But since when has motor racing been a truly fair fight on a level playing field? For everyone in a Mercedes, there's a grid full of others in Saubers (substitute marques from whatever era you like). There are so many things besides skill that determine a driver's success. I see weight as a fairly minor culprit in that crime.



#47 LotusElise

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 15:51

It seems my memory hadn't got it all quite right. But the first lady series in Sweden was the "Lee Cooper Mini Lady Cup" that started in 1976. The girls all drove Minis and Birgitta Uppling was the first winner.

The ladies series in the Eighties was for small Lancias, not Renault as I first wrote. Saab worked together with Fiat in those days and Lancia was sold through Saab's dealerships. Ex-kartist Nettan Lindgren was the big star in that series.

 

It was for Lancia/Autobianchi A112 Abarths. That model was chosen due to its popularity with female car-buyers.



#48 kayemod

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 16:26

But since when has motor racing been a truly fair fight on a level playing field? For everyone in a Mercedes, there's a grid full of others in Saubers (substitute marques from whatever era you like). There are so many things besides skill that determine a driver's success. I see weight as a fairly minor culprit in that crime.

 

The point is that both Mercedes and Sauber are designed and built to exactly the same rules, no built in advantage for anyone, but Mercedes have done a better job, and in that sense it's a level playing field. If Sauber drivers were given a 50 kilo advantage, then it would no longer be fair, as it is at the moment with equal weights for every contestant. There is absolutely no question, and I've never before seen anyone disputing the fact, that weight is a massively important factor in overall performance. If Sauber or any other team were allowed to race 50 kilos lighter, they'd win all the time but of course, then racing would no longer be "A truly fair fight on a level playing field", as it is in F1 though not Indycar at the moment.



#49 PCC

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 17:40

The point is that both Mercedes and Sauber are designed and built to exactly the same rules, no built in advantage for anyone, but Mercedes have done a better job, and in that sense it's a level playing field. If Sauber drivers were given a 50 kilo advantage, then it would no longer be fair, as it is at the moment with equal weights for every contestant. There is absolutely no question, and I've never before seen anyone disputing the fact, that weight is a massively important factor in overall performance. If Sauber or any other team were allowed to race 50 kilos lighter, they'd win all the time but of course, then racing would no longer be "A truly fair fight on a level playing field", as it is in F1 though not Indycar at the moment.

Well, the devil's advocate in me would suggest that the 'rules' aren't exactly the same for Mercedes and Sauber, but that's more a comment on the current state of the sport than its essence.

 

That aside, I do take your point. And the problem you identify leads to absurd situations such as the wraith-like Robert Kubica practically having to become anorexic to remain competitive a few years ago, and Nico Hulkenberg unable to get a competitive ride today. One could argue that compactness and light weight are simply among the physical qualities that a successful driver needs, like good eyesight and fast reflexes. But this shouldn't be a sport in which the guy who is willing to starve himself is better than the guy who isn't (to take gender out of it for a moment).

 

What if the minimum weight were raised? Is that too simplstic? Would the teams with anorexic drivers simply use it as an opportunity to distribute ballast in a way that improves handling?



#50 kayemod

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 18:15

Well, the devil's advocate in me would suggest that the 'rules' aren't exactly the same for Mercedes and Sauber, but that's more a comment on the current state of the sport than its essence.

 

What if the minimum weight were raised? Is that too simplstic? Would the teams with anorexic drivers simply use it as an opportunity to distribute ballast in a way that improves handling?

 

Apologies for being a deviant where this racing series for women thread is concerned, but In what way do you think the rules are different? The only unfairness I can see is that Mercedes have been able to throw ludicrous amounts of money at their F1 team, but attempts to level that particular playing field have come to naught, the wealthier teams always block it. Very short sighted, as reducing wanton spending is the only way that F1 can possibly survive in the longer term.

 

The same thing happens with raising the minimum weight. With the diet and fitness regimes that drivers have to put themselves through, it probably wouldn't make all that much difference, but it's very unfair that tall drivers should be handicapped. I couldn't get my 6' 2" frame into F1 cars back in the 70s & 80s, I'm not looking for a drive, but what chance would I have now?