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WEC: No more Grid Girls


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#301 Dan333SP

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 19:02

Symbolism is inherently subjective (I'll touch on that farther down), and I suppose that's one reason I don't understand the viewpoint of anyone feels this is a necessary decision.

 

I feel I have been singled out by some in this thread as part of the group that is 'extremist' or 'taking things too far' with my views, which I don't think is fair given the context of the discussion. Apparently it's okay to name some extreme examples of men behaving lewdly at races, but then offering a comment or perspective that counter-balances that extreme example (suggesting that not all men automatically become pigs around women dressed a certain way) is somehow not conducive to the discussion whatsoever. Why do I get this impression? Merely offering that opinion is enough for me to get blasted for creating a 'false argument'--even though I'm not really arguing!

 

Perhaps I haven't made myself clear: I'm not opposed to this decision on the grounds that the WEC has every right to project themselves as they wish and give a reasoning for selecting a certain image with which to associate themselves. They have every right to make their decision, however much I agree or disagree with it, and I don't challenge their right to do that. However, my 'issue', as it were, is with their reasoning.

 

Firstly, I don't agree that their decision does much to cast them in a light that is somehow more 'modern', 'gender-neutral', or 'family-friendly'. I specifically offered an IMSA commercial as an example of why I feel the presence of grid girls does little to detract from the atmosphere of a race being 'family-friendly' (and later realised that's not the most recent version of that commercial--the newest one does an even better job of it but isn't on YouTube). You can watch it and tell me you disagree--that's fine, it's a difference of opinion.

 

Change in attitudes happens slowly if at all. If the goal here is to move forward as a society, I simply don't feel that band-aid solutions such as 'ban this' are good enough. They address a symptom of the problem rather than the problem itself (a la "don't confuse the evidence of the thing with the thing itself"). Here, the problem is an apparently subjugating attitude towards women. Banning grid girls does not change that attitude, it merely removes an outlet for that attitude to manifest itself--addressing a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.

 

If you want to curb crass behaviour at races, call someone out the next time you see him behaving crudely. Write a distasteful post about it on the internet. Bring it up to those around you or get security. Do whatever you've got to do to take it up the chain, make your opinion heard and make sure the a#$hole or those like him are aware that his behaviour is uncalled for in such an environment--bad behaviour deserves to be punished. Force him to stop doing what he's doing--it's as simple as "this thing sucks, don't do it anymore". As the saying goes, "the only thing necessary for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing". Have you ever done anything more to make a difference than sit behind a keyboard and preach about how you think it should be? No? Join the club. That's why the problem is still there. Motivating those around you to make a difference by addressing the problem is what causes real change to happen. I'll make a deal with you: you do it next time you see it, and I will too. Let's get the ball rolling.

 

I'd agree that a decision like the one the WEC makes has the potential to cause a change in attitudes--to make people reflect and think, 'their intent is to look more modern, we should strive to be as well'. But I feel this effect is also potential at best. Placing the burden of change in the hands of those with power (e.g. the WEC--or politicians, if you prefer) and then expecting them to make a difference is a lazy way out. Even lazier is assuming they'll take care of it and then complaining when they don't--the reason they aren't bothering to do anything is the same reason you (presumably) aren't or won't. I despise the attitude of waiting for the people in control to do something and then hoping it works. Take control yourself--nothing is stopping you.

 

Make your voice heard. I'm pretty sure it was Thoreau who said 'When will the world learn that a million men are of no importance compared to one man?' Be that one person that makes the difference. Sometimes all it takes is one voice. (Or I suppose you could quibble about Thoreau being sexist by arguably implying that only a man could make the difference, if you prefer. I moved on a long time ago.)

 

So yeah, I guess that's why I'm a little confused and I suppose in disagreement with the majority here about how the WEC is doing this amazing thing by banning grid girls. To change the attitude towards women, we don't need to get rid of the grid girls, we need to get rid of the attitudes--and the source of those attitudes isn't the grid girls, it's the tolerance of said attitudes. Because I don't want to have to come back to this thread, consider this: if the significantly prevailing attitude for men around provocatively-dressed women (or vice versa, if you prefer) in a public setting was to behave cordially, respectfully, and otherwise nonchalantly, there wouldn't be as strong a link between provocatively-dressed women and sexism, no? It goes back to that thing about how we, of our own making, assign symbolism to certain things. Something to think about.

 

All I see is yet another corporate entity exercising the rights it obviously has in an attempt to make itself look better while the real problem still exists and will continue to exist because all we're doing is sitting around and ultimately congratulating them for chasing more of our money rather than perhaps doing anything ourselves to change the attitude we all agree we despise. Wish it didn't have to come to that, but it does. Maybe that's why I feel the way I do.

 

Over and out. Have fun bickering about it, guys.

 

Thanks, that's an excellent post. If I did lump you into the category of those who are senselessly decrying the change just because they want to stare at pretty girls, I apologize, your rationale is the most coherent thing against this change that has been written and it's hard to argue with any of your points. I don't think it's an amazing thing to ban the grid girls as if it's a silver bullet, but I do think that in conjunction with a discussion about the appropriate role for women both on and off the racetrack doesn't hurt matters, even if it is just something pulled out of a hat for marketing differentiation. Sometimes even the most cynical marketing ploys end up actually helping things, but that remains to be seen here.



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#302 Lazy

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 19:32

Political correctness is a bit like DRS, you don't really like it but you accept that it's solving a problem that needs addressing and there's no obvious alternative. As some of the posts here have shown, there is still an attitude issue that needs to be addressed.



#303 Ben1445

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 19:39

One thing their decision has definitely achieved is to get members of the Autosport forum (and of course others) to discuss the issue..at length. 
 



#304 alframsey

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 19:45

I've never understood why we have grid girls or ring girl etc, it doesn't bring anything to the sport and is simply for men to leer at. Overhyped machoism, over which there is still too much,

#305 YoungGun

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 20:04

I like it, when the arguments of people go into extremes.

 

No, nobody should close their eyes, when they see something beautiful.

 

The question though is whether we need such, let's say artificial addition to the grid of motorsports. If you see people passing by on the streets, it would take place in a natural environment.

 

And even more so the question is if as you say you can see attractive women in various environments in everyday life anyway, why would you need them on a racing grid just for the sake of it?

 

P.S. Vanilla is also a flavour, among others. :p

 

You missed my point completely. Which was to not judge people on how they look. This stereotyping as I was attempting to point out sadly manifests itself in ever day life. Replace gird girl with whatever suits your flavour (or deemed the social norm) ...  ;)



#306 Dan333SP

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Posted 06 April 2015 - 20:13

One thing their decision has definitely achieved is to get members of the Autosport forum (and of course others) to discuss the issue..at length. 
 

 

As someone who is guilty of spending multiple posts attempting to convince others that they don't actually like the new F1 engine sound, I can definitely state that there is nothing we won't discuss on this forum at length... except GT racing :(



#307 Nobody

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 10:50

The Summernats Canberra event in Australia saved it's own arse a couple of years back by creating and aggressively marketing it's new, family friendly 'no-sex' 'no-dickheads' approach & program. Now Summernats is an extreme example (it became a difficult to control sleazy booze-fest, heaven for some). If they can attract more kids and women, anyone can.



#308 jjcale

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 11:24

The Summernats Canberra event in Australia saved it's own arse a couple of years back by creating and aggressively marketing it's new, family friendly 'no-sex' 'no-dickheads' approach & program. Now Summernats is an extreme example (it became a difficult to control sleazy booze-fest, heaven for some). If they can attract more kids and women, anyone can.

:rotfl:

 

Worst example ever ... dont blame promo girls for "normal women" using a car show as an opportunity to flash ... en mass.... cant believe your comparing a few models at a controlled and well run event like an FIA sanctioned motor race to the out of control debauchery that Summernats descended into. 



#309 Nobody

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 11:39

:rotfl:

 

Worst example ever ... dont blame promo girls for "normal women" using a car show as an opportunity to flash ... en mass.... cant believe your comparing a few models at a controlled and well run event like an FIA sanctioned motor race to the out of control debauchery that Summernats descended into. 

 

Missed my point much?

 

Reading - have another crack at it :up:



#310 jjcale

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 11:50

Missed my point much?

 

Reading - have another crack at it :up:

 

Nah ... you explain (and elaborate while you are at it)... youre the one making the (bad) point.  



#311 thiscocks

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 12:06

I dont a gree with Davidson who calls it sexist but it is better without them. Perhaps next ban 'celebrities' from the grids also (although that is mainly just F1).



#312 Ben1445

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 12:36

I dont a gree with Davidson who calls it sexist but it is better without them. Perhaps next ban 'celebrities' from the grids also (although that is mainly just F1).

I agree with Davidson's sentiments but I do think that using sexist as a term might not have done his argument many favours 



#313 Nobody

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 12:47

Nah ... you explain (and elaborate while you are at it)... youre the one making the (bad) point.  

 

On the question of growing an audience and attracting new fans to survive, be they family or women:

saved it's own arse (by) aggressively marketing it's new, family friendly ... approach & program.

 

On your question comparing FIA grid girls to old Summernats:

Now Summernats is an extreme example

 

Back to my point:

If they can attract more kids and women [with aggressively marketing... family friendly... etc.] anyone can.

 

So if sleazy Summernats can attract new fans, why can't other motosports?

 

(And not many 'ordinary women' in the end of the old Summernats, strippers and prostitutes were freely brought in.)



#314 jjcale

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 13:32

On the question of growing an audience and attracting new fans to survive, be they family or women:

saved it's own arse (by) aggressively marketing it's new, family friendly ... approach & program.

 

On your question comparing FIA grid girls to old Summernats:

Now Summernats is an extreme example

 

Back to my point:

If they can attract more kids and women [with aggressively marketing... family friendly... etc.] anyone can.

 

So if sleazy Summernats can attract new fans, why can't other motosports?

 

(And not many 'ordinary women' in the end of the old Summernats, strippers and prostitutes were freely brought in.)

 

Thanks for elaborating. The extra info Is helpful.

 

Summernats is a bad example because its such an extreme example..... I cant post any links to any of the stuff from Summernats as we are talking about naked and topless chicks .. and not promo girls - ordinary girls - by the hundreds. 

 

I said car show before but Summernats is more like a biker rally - and for a time, an out of control one. We are not talking about women feeling "objectified" by the presence of grid girls - a lot of the women there were happily and drunkenly "getting yer boobs out for boys" as they put it....  we are not talking about women feeling uncomfortable at summernats - we are talking about widespread groping and some rapes.

 

its completely outside the spectrum of anything that could possibly be relevant to this discussion.... unless you view everything as one big continuum of male oppression with Summernats at one end and WEC style political correctness at the other - and most well regulated race meets with grid girls some where in between (and god knows where on the scale you would put them).

 

So yeah, summernats somewhat cleaned up (but not totally mind) and is drawing bigger crowds - well that was not hard considering what was going on a few years ago! .... but that is still of no real relevance to WEC as their "problem" is both qualitatively and quantitatively different from that faced by summernats.     

 

Edit - yes many "ordinary women" were flashing ... its common at some events.... dont let the feminists fool you about feeling "objectified".... the problem is usually other women being objectified and not the ones making the complaint IMHO (though obviously events like took place at Summernats are to be regretted whether or not most of the women there were happy participants). 


Edited by jjcale, 07 April 2015 - 18:17.


#315 hansmann

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 15:59

 

 

Make your voice heard. I'm pretty sure it was Thoreau who said 'When will the world learn that a million men are of no importance compared to one man?' Be that one person that makes the difference. Sometimes all it takes is one voice. (Or I suppose you could quibble about Thoreau being sexist by arguably implying that only a man could make the difference, if you prefer. I moved on a long time ago.)

 

.....

 

Over and out. Have fun bickering about it, guys.

 

Very well; misquoting one of the most misquoted historical figures, and then pulling out, that makes a fine argument .

 

As for the topic , I understand how the objectification of women is a bad thing .

 

However, I must admit I like grid girls , because they are pretty , simple as that .

 

In most countries, they are just handsome young women who make some money on the side by standing around on some boring venue or the other and smiling .

They usually have a reputable agency that gets them their gigs, and appreciate the fairly easy money (it's still a chore, though) .

 

But in some countries or venues, there are the US style grid girls, and that's where things are not so cavalier any more .

Hookers and strippers on the grid are not funny, nor very attractive .



#316 Lotusseven

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 16:36

I could never dream of it is so difficult to find your spot on the grid without a grid girl/boy as holding the number board. I was joking with Alex Wurz today and then Tom Onslow-Cole answered " TBF if you're on the front row then no stress, got it sussed. But, after that it's pretty much rocket science! "  :rolleyes: I was thinking..you kidding me!  rocket science is advanced stuff. Push to MEKO.

 

Edit: Speaking about the trolls, Wurz just favorited Onslow-Coles tweet.  The WEC drivers got I new challenge - to be 1,2,3, or 4 on the grid...after that they can't think. Incredible imo. I´m not a driver so I have no idea, but it sounds weird.


Edited by Lotusseven, 07 April 2015 - 16:48.


#317 johnmhinds

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 17:37

I could never dream of it is so difficult to find your spot on the grid without a grid girl/boy as holding the number board. I was joking with Alex Wurz today and then Tom Onslow-Cole answered " TBF if you're on the front row then no stress, got it sussed. But, after that it's pretty much rocket science! "  :rolleyes: I was thinking..you kidding me!  rocket science is advanced stuff. Push to MEKO.

 

Edit: Speaking about the trolls, Wurz just favorited Onslow-Coles tweet.  The WEC drivers got I new challenge - to be 1,2,3, or 4 on the grid...after that they can't think. Incredible imo. I´m not a driver so I have no idea, but it sounds weird.

 

None of the WEC drivers got the memo about them not lining up on the grid hatchings anymore then?


Edited by johnmhinds, 07 April 2015 - 17:38.


#318 Rob

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Posted 07 April 2015 - 18:04

None of the WEC drivers got the memo about them not lining up on the grid hatchings anymore then?

 

I knew there was a reason we put those painted lines on the track! :)



#319 Nonesuch

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 17:15

Seems like a couple of the women didn't get the memo. :p

 

Oops...

 

1ZllljM.png



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#320 Tarzaan

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 17:17

FIA WEC: No More 'Grid Girls':

 

reut.rs/1FmEcmg

 

This gives me a sad.

 

Me too. Stupid decission.

 

There is absolutely no good reason for having grid girls. 

 

 

Traditions?


Edited by Tarzaan, 12 April 2015 - 17:21.


#321 johnmhinds

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 17:23

Seems like a couple of the women didn't get the memo. :p

 

Oops...

 

1ZllljM.png

 

 

She isn't on the grid?

WEC didn't ban all women from their events....

 

The way the cars and drivers were displayed on the grid today looked like a positive step forward for the fans.

 



#322 Nonesuch

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 17:33

She isn't on the grid?

 
Fair enough. 'Pitlane girls' is a bit wordy, but it'll do. :up:
 
The appearance of 'pitlane girls' and 'applause girls' at the WEC race merely strikes me as amusing in light of statements like these:
 

Lisa Crampton @_LCC7
Assistant to FIA Race Director @FIAWEC @24HoursofLeMans & European Le Mans / Marketing Event Social Media & Sponsorship Consultant
"May I just add that it's not grid girls which are the point here - it's what's broadcast to the masses in terms of Women in Motorsport."



#323 johnmhinds

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 17:50

 
Fair enough. 'Pitlane girls' is a bit wordy, but it'll do. :up:
 
The appearance of 'pitlane girls' and 'applause girls' at the WEC race merely strikes me as amusing in light of statements like these:
 

 

One step at a time I guess.

 

I'm wondering where everyone who was against this idea went though, wasn't the series going to be ruined for them because of this change???

 

Maybe they didn't even watch.  :drunk:


Edited by johnmhinds, 12 April 2015 - 17:50.


#324 Ben1445

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 18:31

Me too. Stupid decission.

 

 

Traditions?

I wouldn't consider tradition to be a good reason to be honest, but I accept it as an argument. 

 

One step at a time I guess.

 

I'm wondering where everyone who was against this idea went though, wasn't the series going to be ruined for them because of this change???

 

Maybe they didn't even watch.  :drunk:

:lol: Yes. This. 



#325 FenderJaguar

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 18:43

Great looking girls after the race in China today!



#326 Sausage

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 19:14

 
Fair enough. 'Pitlane girls' is a bit wordy, but it'll do. :up:
 
The appearance of 'pitlane girls' and 'applause girls' at the WEC race merely strikes me as amusing in light of statements like these:
 

 

Not amusing, completely hypocritical. If you're going to do away with grid girls since they are sexist but then have obviously handpicked beautiful sponsor girls or trackgirls or whatever they are in sexy matching outfits walking around then yes you are indeed and conclusively a massive hypocrit :smoking:



#327 johnmhinds

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Posted 12 April 2015 - 20:33

Not amusing, completely hypocritical. If you're going to do away with grid girls since they are sexist but then have obviously handpicked beautiful sponsor girls or trackgirls or whatever they are in sexy matching outfits walking around then yes you are indeed and conclusively a massive hypocrit :smoking:

 

I really don't get you guys. Would you be happier if they banned them from the entire event now?

 

Watch the video I posted:

 

 

Tell me why anyone would think that this new grid system isn't a positive change for the fans.


Edited by johnmhinds, 12 April 2015 - 20:37.