74 replies to this topic

[BillyWhizz]

I have looked for a thread on this topic, but unless I have missed it, I can't see one, so here goes.

 

As regular (and as ancient) as Old Faithful, Bernie has come out defiantly with proper fighting talk, and pointing fingers regarding the current direction F1 is heading on.

 

It's been pretty widely covered this morning and Toto gets both barrels from the little one. For me the line of the article is: "Toto can have a lovely inscription on his gravestone that says: 'I helped to kill Formula 1'"

 

Here it is then....

 

"After 50 years of work, I will not allow formula one to be destroyed out of pure selfishness."

[Sausage]

Damn, I don't even know what to say. I mean, what the F? Who in his right mind would say that?

 

I have a hard time his garantuee of "we will win" is very believable though. I mean he could probably literally kill F1 by himself, but he won't and he too is bound by agreements.

[Jazza]

Putting the sport behind a paywall, charging insane prices for every aspect of it because only people with a Rolex matter, and taking the sport to countries that don't give a rats about motor racing is what is killing the sport. Whose selfishness caused that?

[FullThrottleF1]

This guy gets more loony every single day.

[Risil]

"Imagining the death of F1". Back in Tudor times that constituted high treason and carried the death penalty.

[Spillage]

What an odd thing to say. Toto Wolff is just a competitor, and a good one at that. Bernie meanwhile is, like some Frankenstein figure, apparently hell-bent on destroying that which he was instrumental in creating. The period of his helpfulness expired long ago and he's doing real harm nowadays.

[Nemo1965]

This F1 is holier than thou is getting tired fast. Let us not forget that in the 50's, the world championship for drivers was not called Formula 1. Let us not forget that in the 60's the world championship was actually competed by cars that were, say, the GP2 cars of the time. F1 is the world championship for drivers because we say so. If Toto Wolff kills the current F1 (ha!), and another drivers championship takes over, THAT will be the world championship for drivers.

 

Bernie should shut his piehole more. Once he truly cared for F1, or so it seemed. But he has made the monopolistic, kartel-like sport it is now, and I for one would not be too sad to see it ruined. The best drivers will go to another championship and Bernie can spend the rest of his days - which I fear will be many - to count his dollars and ex-wives.

 

PS: Look at this, for example, if one thinks that F1 should be protected against the ugly competitors who are too good

Edited by Nemo1965, 09 April 2015 - 14:44.

[RockBrocaine]

And Bernie's stone would read, "But it was mostly my fault"

[Gyno]

Bernie is right.

Belive it or not.

 

 

Alot of people on here including me have been saying that F1 is dying, something needs to be done or else there will be no F1 in 2020.

Bernie and Max knows this and are now speaking up.

 

It aint just the engines, it's the way the cars look, right now with the large front wing and tall but narrow rear wing makes the cars look like ****.

[Jvr]

The problem is that Bernie made F1 too successful from marketing point of view but also too costly for independent teams and in a way it has developed like a Ponzi scheme where it is getting each year more expensive while being less profitable to independent participants and the next year expenses are somehow always earned by betting on this year's success.. Some others such as Merc and RBR see F1 as a marketing tool and then the F1 profit / loss statement is not directly required to be sustainable but you can write some of that off in your corporation marketing expenses side.

 

So Bernie tries to get even more eyeballs paying on to the event but at the same time the potential paying follower base is almost used up or at least marginalized.

[HoldenRT]

If F1 "dies" everyone will have plenty of blame, but Bernie probably more than most.

[andrewf1]

So out of all people in F1, BERNIE points fingers at people ''killing the sport''.

 

 

WOW

[kosmos]

If F1 "dies" everyone will have plenty of blame, but Bernie probably more than most.

 

 

Nailed it

[P123]

Chasing short term paydays, signing off poorly thought out commercial agreements with select teams and failing to do anything to promote the sport....... yeah, Bernie's the guy to not stand back and let the sport die off.  Sure.

[ardbeg]

Hehe,  the irony:
 

"After 50 years of work, I will not allow formula one to be destroyed out of pure selfishness."

That said, I think it is ok that the teams have a say about the regulations, but they should not have the power decide them.

[RosannaG]

Hehe,  the irony:
 

"After 50 years of work, I will not allow formula one to be destroyed out of pure selfishness."

That said, I think it is ok that the teams have a say about the regulations, but they should not have the power decide them.

 

Reading that sentence by itself... I wonder if he is talking about himself 

[Shambolic]

It's about time someone actually stood up to him - Or told him where to shove it and left. Yes, it might not be good business for Mercedes to turn around and say "OK, enough of this ****, we're off to WEC as of now. Yeah, here's the penalty payment, now sod off", but it'd maybe shake the rest of the so called sport of F1 awake.

 

Paywalls, selling the image to dictatorships, and overall greed are doing more to damage this sport than a tiff over some luddites not coping with efficiency or aero developments.

[sopa]

Reading that sentence by itself... I wonder if he is talking about himself 

 

That's how narcissistic people "grasp" the world. They are unable to relate themselves to others.

 

"Formula One is dying - oh some bastards must be at fault. I have to find and punish them!" says the man in charge of F1. "They are all evil enemies, conspiracists, who are trying to kill my life work!" Such speeches are also common for dictatorial country tyrants.

Edited by sopa, 09 April 2015 - 15:52.

[Atreiu]

Oh Bernie, such an altruistic saint.

[Guizotia]

Bernie is just trying to cast blame for the fall in viewers on someone other than himself.

He may be coming under pressure from his employers, CVC.

[SanDiegoGo]

bernie logic: "****! mosely just said the sport will destroy itself and is unfair. erm... LOOK OVER THERE! LOOK AT TOTO. HE'S THE ONE TO BLAME. IT'S TERRIBLE ISN'T IT? YES. I AGREE."

[johnmhinds]

Bernie is the one who is in charge isn't he?

If he genuinely thought someone was killing the sport he runs he would do something about them.

 

Instead he is just saying some bullshit even he doesn't believe to push the blame off himself so the press doesn't talk about his own senile decisions.

 

Go back to signing deals with Qatar and Azerbaijan Bernie, i'm sure the corrupt and directionless "sport" you've masterminded will do well in those countries.

Edited by johnmhinds, 09 April 2015 - 17:21.

[ensign14]

[Nemo1965]

I've got a real simple solution for Bernie's problem.

 

1. Arrange that all F1 teams can buy the strongest engine available, (which at the moment is Mercedes) for a fixed price of 25 million per year. (This is a very real amount of money. Source: The Independent & Gary Anderson have estimated this).

 

2. If a manufacturer can't deliver to 11 teams, give them dispensation for the first three years. Dispensation stops the moment an engine wins a Grand Prix.

 

3. Give the manufacturer of the most popular engines special bonuses. So every team you deliver an engine, you get more price-money. The bonus that has been given to Ferrari right now would cover the costs.

 

But hey, of course that would cut into the profit of CVC/FOM/Bernie's Ex-Wife-Comp & Such...

[Lotus53B]

Toto should say "Bernie, you're the promoter.  If you can't cope with the evolution of the formula and promote it to the current generation, then bugger off to Bournemouth, you've had your day.  Leave the modern stuff to folk who understand the modern world.  And don't let the door hit you on the way out."

[johnmhinds]

25 million is still waaaay to much to be charging for engines.

 

The Cosworth deal when the new teams joined F1 in 2010 was for 5 million a year per team, and would have been lowered for everyone if more teams decided to use those engines and the costs got spread across more teams.

 

There is no reason why it should cost 20 million more to add a turbo and a battery to the engines, as clearly shown by Ferrari being able to drop the prices down by more than half for Manor to use a 2014 engine design.

[maverick69]

Funny how Bernie's come out with this now.... I mean, anyone would think that one of his main allies and contributors was once again threatening to leave the sport.

 

Hmmmmmmm.........

Edited by maverick69, 09 April 2015 - 17:32.

[Gilles12]

Is it possible he's making these comments to appease Mateshitz and the stiff he's been saying about pulling Red Bull out if they don't get a competitive engine?

[pRy]

Is it possible he's making these comments to appease Mateshitz and the stiff he's been saying about pulling Red Bull out if they don't get a competitive engine?

 

Bernie has had long standing objections to the V6 engine formula dating back several years. This isn't new to appease Redbull.. he never wanted V6s.

[Option1]

I've got a real simple solution for Bernie's problem.

 

1. Arrange that all F1 teams can buy the strongest engine available, (which at the moment is Mercedes) for a fixed price of 25 million per year. (This is a very real amount of money. Source: The Independent & Gary Anderson have estimated this).

...

Why?  Seriously, why?

How does this make F1 better?
 

What's the point?

Why would the manufacturers bother turning up?
 

Are you nuts?

Neil

[Elba]

Funny how many can't see the forest for the trees and resort to predictable knee jerk "boohoo Bernie is the root of all evil' reactions whenever the little octogenarian says something, anything really 

 

This message from Bernie has been long coming.

He has not been happy with the chosen engine formula for years and he won't have another year(s) of utter Mercedes domination.

 

This is just the next step, blame Toto/Mercedes for the domination and them clinging on to the current engine formula, pressure FIA and appease the (important) team(s) (Red Bull) who are not happy with the current situation. 

 

Most important quote:

"I will try to intervene and convince the FIA," said Ecclestone. "And if certain people complain, let them complain. I guarantee that we will win."

 

And as usual I think he will win.

 

 

[Timstr11]

Funny how Bernie's come out with this now.... I mean, anyone would think that one of his main allies and contributors was once again threatening to leave the sport.

 

Hmmmmmmm.........

 

Clearly he's helping to push Redbull's agenda to change the regulations to a conventional engine with standard parts..

I believe we're nearing the decision point for changes to the rules for 2017 and Bernie and Horner are working Mercedes to go along with their ideas.

Mercedes, together with the teams they supply, have a lot of votes needed to get a majority.

[pRy]

Two F1 teams collapsed end of last year and three other F1 teams almost didn't make it to Melbourne and may not make it to mid season. That would have very little to do with the overall promotion of F1 as a sport and more to do with the operating costs of running an F1 team. That is where there is a fundamental problem. Max Mosley started warning about it years ago.. no one listened. He's still warning about it, no one listens. Now the sport seems locked into using clever engines, energy saving devices and other various features that ultimately push up the costs. And there is nothing to balance it all out. So the smaller teams are going up against the might of the likes of Mercedes with their huge budgets and it's perhaps no wonder the smaller teams are barely able to cover their own costs.

 

Bernie never wanted the V6 engines and it appears he also feels the input Mercedes had in the development of the current engine specifications handed them a huge and arguably unfair advantage which they still enjoy today. 

 

But regardless of arguing about engines or anything else I think it's clear F1 has a problem with costs and there appears to be a problem behind the scenes with how decisions are made and how those decisions impact the grid as a whole. That's not great for the future of the sport. If three teams collapse this year.. I very much doubt new teams are going to fill the void. Something needs to change. It's needed to change for years.

[Timstr11]

Funny how many can't see the forest for the trees and resort to predictable knee jerk "boohoo Bernie is the root of all evil' reactions whenever the little octogenarian says something, anything really 

 

This message from Bernie has been long coming.

He has not been happy with the chosen engine formula for years and he won't have another year(s) of utter Mercedes domination.

 

This is just the next step, blame Toto/Mercedes for the domination and them clinging on to the current engine formula, pressure FIA and appease the (important) team(s) (Red Bull) who are not happy with the current situation. 

 

Most important quote:

"I will try to intervene and convince the FIA," said Ecclestone. "And if certain people complain, let them complain. I guarantee that we will win."

 

And as usual I think he will win.

 

As usual?

Thankfully Bernie is not that powerful to always get his ways.

Teams are investing billions in the sport with high risk. It's good they also have a part in the decision making.

[JHSingo]

Full inscription will read as follows:

 

"I helped to kill F1...with Bernie Ecclestone."

[sopa]

Funny how many can't see the forest for the trees and resort to predictable knee jerk "boohoo Bernie is the root of all evil' reactions whenever the little octogenarian says something, anything really 

 

This message from Bernie has been long coming.

He has not been happy with the chosen engine formula for years and he won't have another year(s) of utter Mercedes domination.

 

This is just the next step, blame Toto/Mercedes for the domination and them clinging on to the current engine formula, pressure FIA and appease the (important) team(s) (Red Bull) who are not happy with the current situation. 

 

Most important quote:

"I will try to intervene and convince the FIA," said Ecclestone. "And if certain people complain, let them complain. I guarantee that we will win."

 

And as usual I think he will win.

 

Bernie is very influential on the commercial side of F1, but I haven't really seen evidence he has that much say on the rules side, especially technical rules, where he is not really that much of an expert.

 

For example engines - I do think engine manufacturers have/had a lot of say in this, how to go forward. They wanted to go into new era, because V8 was outdated. Bernie can't force going back to V8 engines, because that would mean we could likely end up with only Ferrari and Cosworth as engine manufacturers.

 

In the grand scheme of things F1 needs to be relevant to modern technological advances. Perhaps this is where F1 fans and Bernie could unite and think the same - we want the old V12 and V10 engines!! But it doesn't work like that, regardless of how much they shout - the world technological development realities want something else.

[sopa]

Two F1 teams collapsed end of last year and three other F1 teams almost didn't make it to Melbourne and may not make it to mid season. That would have very little to do with the overall promotion of F1 as a sport and more to do with the operating costs of running an F1 team. That is where there is a fundamental problem. Max Mosley started warning about it years ago.. no one listened. He's still warning about it, no one listens. Now the sport seems locked into using clever engines, energy saving devices and other various features that ultimately push up the costs. And there is nothing to balance it all out. So the smaller teams are going up against the might of the likes of Mercedes with their huge budgets and it's perhaps no wonder the smaller teams are barely able to cover their own costs.

 

The cost side is critical, but F1 needed to go forward. Perhaps Bernie has a point - Toto has been in a way influential in getting those new engine rules. But Toto perhaps also knew that Mercedes HQ would pull out of F1 if they didn't get new rules. So Toto was also fighting for his own job and career!

 

Perhaps F1 could have learnt a thing or two from WEC. They also have hybrid engines, but it looks like they are much more affordable and quite a number of manufacturers have joined WEC. So, what's different there?

[Timstr11]

The cost side is critical, but F1 needed to go forward. Perhaps Bernie has a point - Toto has been in a way influential in getting those new engine rules. But Toto perhaps also knew that Mercedes HQ would pull out of F1 if they didn't get new rules. So Toto was also fighting for his own job and career!

 

Perhaps F1 could have learnt a thing or two from WEC. They also have hybrid engines, but it looks like they are much more affordable and quite a number of manufacturers have joined WEC. So, what's different there?

 

Toto was not even at Mercedes when these rules were decided on,

He's got nothing to do with getting this engine rule.

[sopa]

Toto was not even at Mercedes when these rules were decided on,

He's got nothing to do with getting this engine rule.

 

Ok, you are right. I forgot they decided on these rules already in 2011.

[V666]

Funny how old Bernie wasn't saying this when his darlings Vettel and Horner were dominating....

[V666]

The cost side is critical, but F1 needed to go forward. Perhaps Bernie has a point - Toto has been in a way influential in getting those new engine rules. But Toto perhaps also knew that Mercedes HQ would pull out of F1 if they didn't get new rules. So Toto was also fighting for his own job and career!

Perhaps F1 could have learnt a thing or two from WEC. They also have hybrid engines, but it looks like they are much more affordable and quite a number of manufacturers have joined WEC. So, what's different there?

Think you'll find Renault were pushing for these engines, they threatened to quit otherwise.

[mclarensmps]

If you actually read the article and not comment based purely on the headline, he actually makes a valid point.

 

Having said that, the new engines aren't the only reason the sport is in decline. A lot of Bernie's own actions have led to it being where it is. 

 

Holding races all over the world is NOT one of the reasons F1 is in decline, however, xenophobically you wish to look at it. Putting it behind a pay wall in the UK, not adopting social media, and strange/constantly changing regulations can be put to blame, however. 

 

Make the cars loud again, make them look spectacular again, and you won't have a situation where the German Grand Prix can't afford to host a race in the season. 

Bring back F1 on free-to-air, and you'll see a 100% increase in viewership in the UK. 

 

Adapt to the internet and social media, and folks like me would gladly pay $5-10 per race to watch it online.

 

These are all topics aside, though... the actual point he's making, although exaggerated, is definitely valid. 

[P123]

Funny how many can't see the forest for the trees and resort to predictable knee jerk "boohoo Bernie is the root of all evil' reactions whenever the little octogenarian says something, anything really 
 
This message from Bernie has been long coming.
He has not been happy with the chosen engine formula for years and he won't have another year(s) of utter Mercedes domination.
 
This is just the next step, blame Toto/Mercedes for the domination and them clinging on to the current engine formula, pressure FIA and appease the (important) team(s) (Red Bull) who are not happy with the current situation. 
 
Most important quote:
"I will try to intervene and convince the FIA," said Ecclestone. "And if certain people complain, let them complain. I guarantee that we will win."[/size]
 
And as usual I think he will win.[/size]

I think those who support Bernie (and the little guy himself) can't see beyond their noses. He is the problem. He has failed to promote the sport. He has failed to negotiate a sensible distribution of funds among the grid, leaving most of it unsustainable. He has sold broadcasting rights off to satellite broadcasters, reducing the reach of the sport, and making it less appealing to sponsors. His FOM competes directly (and unfairly) with the teams for sponsors. He has failed to embrace the internet as a means of promoting the sport, and of generating income. He has failed to be a positive figurehead for the sport, known to the public for political donations, bribery and generally trashing the sport.

Getting rid of V6s or Mercedes and artificially altering rules to help Red Bull out won't solve any of the Ecclestone inflicted problems. We'll just have new problems. An extreme shortage of heavily subsidised dream V8s for starters. And an Ecclestone created financial noose for those who remain, having to feed off ever diminishing scraps. But so long as Red Bull win and collect $100m as they pass go everything will be fine..... Yeah, it's that damn Toto's fault!

[Nemo1965]

If you actually read the article and not comment based purely on the headline, he actually makes a valid point.

 

Having said that, the new engines aren't the only reason the sport is in decline. A lot of Bernie's own actions have led to it being where it is. 

 

Holding races all over the world is NOT one of the reasons F1 is in decline, however, xenophobically you wish to look at it. Putting it behind a pay wall in the UK, not adopting social media, and strange/constantly changing regulations can be put to blame, however. 

 

Make the cars loud again, make them look spectacular again, and you won't have a situation where the German Grand Prix can't afford to host a race in the season. 

Bring back F1 on free-to-air, and you'll see a 100% increase in viewership in the UK. 

 

Adapt to the internet and social media, and folks like me would gladly pay $5-10 per race to watch it online.

 

These are all topics aside, though... the actual point he's making, although exaggerated, is definitely valid. 

 

C'est la ton qui fait la music. Toujours. (It are the tones that make the music. Always).

[johnmhinds]

If you actually read the article and not comment based purely on the headline, he actually makes a valid point.

 

Having said that, the new engines aren't the only reason the sport is in decline. A lot of Bernie's own actions have led to it being where it is. 

 

Holding races all over the world is NOT one of the reasons F1 is in decline, however, xenophobically you wish to look at it. Putting it behind a pay wall in the UK, not adopting social media, and strange/constantly changing regulations can be put to blame, however. 

 

Make the cars loud again, make them look spectacular again, and you won't have a situation where the German Grand Prix can't afford to host a race in the season. 

Bring back F1 on free-to-air, and you'll see a 100% increase in viewership in the UK. 

 

Adapt to the internet and social media, and folks like me would gladly pay $5-10 per race to watch it online.

 

These are all topics aside, though... the actual point he's making, although exaggerated, is definitely valid. 

 

Sure it is, a lot of money that has been invested in F1 tracks over the last decade has been a complete waste.

 

Four brand new race tracks in Turkey, Valencia, India and Korea have all been abandoned by F1 because they never had the local fanbase to support the escalating race fee that FOM/CVC imposes on them.

 

It was clear from the day all those races were announced that all those race tracks would fail in that way but they went ahead anyway because they were foolish enough to pay the fees and believe Bernie's lies.

 

And at the same time we can't have a races in France or Germany which have massive motorsport fanbases and huge connections to the teams and manufacturers?

Edited by johnmhinds, 09 April 2015 - 20:53.

[Elba]

And at the same time we can't have a races in France or Germany which have massive motorsport fanbases and huge connections to the teams and manufacturers?

Funny you bring that up. I agree it is a shame France and Germany don't have a GP anymore.

For France it is clear, there is no money available and the only track instantly suitable is where F1 doesn't want to be, regrettably.

 

For losing Germany the more I think about it, I suspect that denying Germany and Mercedes their (home) GP was all part of the plan to pressure Mercedes, heck Mercedes even offered to stump up half/most of the fee and still they were denied.

The game is on, I expect (rule) changes soonish

[Hollow]

There are no good guys here. This is a business and business is going down, he's losing money and he's going to lose some more. Something must be done, this is a declaration of war and we'll see who wins. Bernie is a very intelligent man. I wouldn't like to have him as my enemy.

[sabjit]

remove bernie

[sabjit]

https://www.change.o...estone-from-fom

[loki]

F1 is declining because the fans are dying off faster than new fans take thier place.  It's not just F1 but in many motorsports.  Motocross and rallycross seem to be the exceptions at this point.  The kids aren't interested in this kind of thing and a bunch of old men aren't going to change thier minds.  Time to work with what you've got, structure the business and cost models toward that, get as many new fans as you can and get on with it.  Tastes change and this is part of that change.