74 replies to this topic

[mclarensmps]

Sure it is, a lot of money that has been invested in F1 tracks over the last decade has been a complete waste.

 

Four brand new race tracks in Turkey, Valencia, India and Korea has all been abandoned by F1 because they never had the local fanbase to support the escalating race fee that FOM/CVC imposes on them.

 

It was clear from the day all those races were announced that all those race tracks would fail in that way but they went ahead anyway because they were foolish enough to pay the fees and believe Bernie's lies.

 

And at the same time we can't have a races in France or Germany which have massive motorsport fanbases and huge connections to the teams and manufacturers?

 

Last I checked, Turkey and Spain are both in Europe. If they were willing to front up the money, then I see no problem with hosting the race their. That the organizers were unable to promote their circuits and generate an audience, is a problem that lies on their shoulders. Sure, F1 does charge a huge price for hosting races, and that is something that should be resolved; however, that is not the point I was arguing against. 

Take Turkey for example. The circuit was actually quite good, and the races were entertaining. In terms of TV viewing, I don't see any problem with the track itself. Valencia, on the other hand, was a boring track, and I'm glad the race there is gone.

 

In the same way, Germany had every opportunity to host the race, but were unable to do so. On the face of it, Germans the local populace just seems disinterested in the scene at the moment. Both the Nurburgring and Hockenheim are brilliant tracks though. On the other hand, there was a reason why The French Grand Prix was called Magny Bore...

 

Some tracks are interesting, some tracks are boring. China, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, Malaysia, are all able to sustain their races (government intervention or not). So I don't see how we can justify that races being held in far flung regions are to blame for F1's decline. The problem lies elsewhere. 

I'm a huge F1 fan, but I just don't see any reason to go watch a race live these days, because... frankly the cars are not awe inspiringly spectacular to me at the moment. It's the nature of the current regulations. I have a circuit just 5 hours drive away from me, and I have no inclination to go with the way things stand at the moment. I'll stick to TV.

[Elba]

There are no good guys here. This is a business and business is going down, he's losing money and he's going to lose some more. Something must be done, this is a declaration of war and we'll see who wins. Bernie is a very intelligent man. I wouldn't like to have him as my enemy.

I think you completely understood 

 

https://www.change.o...estone-from-fom

Oy great an online petition and as effective as usual with 12 supporters in nearly a month 

[pdac]

Just more evidence that Bernie only knows one way to make money and that way isn't working for him anymore.

[johnmhinds]

Last I checked, Turkey and Spain are both in Europe. If they were willing to front up the money, then I see no problem with hosting the race their. That the organizers were unable to promote their circuits and generate an audience, is a problem that lies on their shoulders. Sure, F1 does charge a huge price for hosting races, and that is something that should be resolved; however, that is not the point I was arguing against. 

Take Turkey for example. The circuit was actually quite good, and the races were entertaining. In terms of TV viewing, I don't see any problem with the track itself. Valencia, on the other hand, was a boring track, and I'm glad the race there is gone.

 

In the same way, Germany had every opportunity to host the race, but were unable to do so. On the face of it, Germans the local populace just seems disinterested in the scene at the moment. Both the Nurburgring and Hockenheim are brilliant tracks though. On the other hand, there was a reason why The French Grand Prix was called Magny Bore...

 

Some tracks are interesting, some tracks are boring. China, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, Malaysia, are all able to sustain their races (government intervention or not). So I don't see how we can justify that races being held in far flung regions are to blame for F1's decline. The problem lies elsewhere. 

I'm a huge F1 fan, but I just don't see any reason to go watch a race live these days, because... frankly the cars are not awe inspiringly spectacular to me at the moment. It's the nature of the current regulations. I have a circuit just 5 hours drive away from me, and I have no inclination to go with the way things stand at the moment. I'll stick to TV.

 

All of the races you just listed there are government backed.

 

And that's the problem with modern F1, we go where the governments can pay the bloated race fees, not where the fans are.

And then as soon as those governments see through the charade we move on to the next tracks with no fans in Russia, Azerbaijan, Qatar, etc...

 

If you wanted F1 to have a growing and consistent fanbase then you'd go to established tracks where the fans already are, make the ticket prices cheaper so whole families can attend races again, and then build off that for the future.

 

But Bernie can't/wont do that because all he is paid to do is get the most money out of the sport in the short term by jacking up the prices for everyone and nuts to the future of the sport.

[Elba]

Meh not much point to participate in this thread anymore as most don't even try to debate the issue raised in the OP but just ventilate their pet peeves about F1 or Bernie here.

Dozens of other -boring- threads for that.

Have fun 

[ensign14]

Why?  Seriously, why?

How does this make F1 better?
 

What's the point?

Why would the manufacturers bother turning up?
 

Are you nuts?

Neil

 

Formula 1 is at its best when it's down to racers, not manufacturers.  When it was Lotus v Brabham v Cooper v BRM v Ferrari v Eagle.  Or Ferrari v McLaren v Lotus v Brabham v Tyrrell v Ferrari v March v Shadow v Ligier v Fittipaldi v Ensign v Surtees v Williams v Hesketh v Penske v Parnelli...

[johnmhinds]

Meh not much point to participate in this thread anymore as most don't even try to debate the issue raised in the OP but just ventilate their pet peeves about F1 or Bernie here.

Dozens of other -boring- threads for that.

Have fun 

 

Because what Bernie said is complete nonsense and not worth debating.

 

It's not the new engines that will kill F1, the corrupt economic model he has created was already eating away at F1 from the insides years before anyone thought about using V6 engines.

[TheCaptain]

Firstly, if Bernie is saying something then if you can't see the big flashing lights and sign saying "THIS IS A DISTRACTION" then you've not been watching F1 very long.    

 

My hunch is that Bernie is trying to drive down the value of F1 so he can buy it back from CVC.    I can't see how any other promoter of something would constantly do everything he can to run down the sport in public the way he has without an ulterior motive.   

 

I personally have a slight issue with taking anyone serious who has leeched billions of dollars (and continue to take fortunes from it) from the sport over the years claiming they have the best interests of the sport at heart.

[KingTiger]

Bernard will be number 1,2, and 3 on the list of people that killed F1. His complete lack of promotion of the sport to the new generation and ridiculous prices for the current fans and traditional F1 countries are bigger problems than any engines that the likes of Caterham couldn't afford.

 

Toto is acting in his own interests if he's vetoed or threated to quit due to engine changes but let's be honest - the V8 were absolutely awful engines.They had no redeeming features and I'm happy that the manufacturers have no interest in bringing them back. 

 

 

The cost side is critical, but F1 needed to go forward. Perhaps Bernie has a point - Toto has been in a way influential in getting those new engine rules. But Toto perhaps also knew that Mercedes HQ would pull out of F1 if they didn't get new rules. So Toto was also fighting for his own job and career!

 

Perhaps F1 could have learnt a thing or two from WEC. They also have hybrid engines, but it looks like they are much more affordable and quite a number of manufacturers have joined WEC. So, what's different there?

 

There are ~7 entries in LMP for the first WEC race of the season. How very affordable.

Edited by KingTiger, 09 April 2015 - 23:09.

[robefc]

Formula 1 is at its best when it's down to racers, not manufacturers.  When it was Lotus v Brabham v Cooper v BRM v Ferrari v Eagle.  Or Ferrari v McLaren v Lotus v Brabham v Tyrrell v Ferrari v March v Shadow v Ligier v Fittipaldi v Ensign v Surtees v Williams v Hesketh v Penske v Parnelli...

 

But aren't there are only two manufacturer teams in F1 at the moment? One of which is mentioned in both of the above lists and one of which has a very rich racing history?

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

It is a very strange business, and all of it reminds me of the Hans Christian Anderson tale "The Emperor's New Clothes" and Lewis Carroll's "Through the Looking Glass". It just gets more surreal each day. Once upon a time Formula One and Grand Prix racing was a sport. There was always politics and shenanigans going on, but it was a sport. The sanctioning body set the rules, ran the races, and teams lined up to compete. But through decades of shady deals and questionable decisions, Max sold the rights to Bernie, who turned it over into a handsome profit, and today the commercial rights are owned by CVC, who skim off a healthy part of the profits. And as far as running the show, we have CVC, Bernie, the FIA, manufacturers, and teams all having a say in what happens. Talk about being pulled apart by individual agendas. Bernie wants to see increased TV viewership, the manufacturers want to showcase their products, the teams want to win.

 

 

What, what, what, the teams want to win? How incredibly selfish and short-sighted. They want to win, and even more horrific, they want to keep on winning.

 

Bernie bears a huge part of the "blame" on the current mess, where there is now no central authority controlling Formula One, no one entity responsible for the future and health of the sport. He parceled out controlling interests, financial deals, and kept on jacking up the prices of participation. Without any doubt the sport is not financially viable, small teams are dropping away, the big teams are flexing their muscles, and Tamara Ecclestone is looking to buy a few more mansions.

 

 

Isn't it nice to see your subscription fees going toward such a nice car?

[Gilles12]

At least as long as Williams has been around it's been a business, outside Sunday afternoons, according to Frank

[Rob]

The elephant in the room is a certain deal involving selling off the commercial rights. That in my opinion is the biggest contributing factor.

[paulogman]

this is so completely out of touch with what's happening at the front of the grid


last year mercedes came in and dominated
threw down the gauntlet to the other teams and said here we are, come and catch us

ferrari have taken up the challenge, restructured and could possibly in just one season redress the balance of power


redbull on the other hand have cried like little babies and bernie seems to be focused on them instead of what's going on in the paddock and out on track.

Edited by paulogman, 10 April 2015 - 14:56.

[Rasputin]

"Now that's unfair, I singlehanded killed F1 already back in 2001, when I gave away the commercial rights to Bernie!"

 

[Gilles12]

I just read the Reincken article on Autosport on Bernie's short sightedness and desire to introduce gimmicks to spice up the show

I think he's lost it poor chap

Edited by Gilles12, 10 April 2015 - 17:40.

[Jon83]

"The spectators are down but not everywhere -- in England for example. Perhaps Germany just has a 'formula one hangover'."

 

 

 

Hmm, anything to do with the current star of the show being British?

[flymo]

There's no argument to be found here - the old man just left out a word.  The tombstone inscription should really be 

 

I helped Bernie to kill Formula 1.

[P123]

"The spectators are down but not everywhere -- in England for example. Perhaps Germany just has a 'formula one hangover'."
 
 
 
Hmm, anything to do with the current star of the show being British?

It may have had a small impact. German viewing figures have been reducing for years, even Vettel's success only briefly halted that for one season. There was a bar chart posted by somebody a while back which showed that since 1999 German TV viewing figures have decreased year on year in all but two of those years. There were plenty of empty seats at Hockenheim even way back in '04, one of Schumacher's most successful seasons. F1's popularity has been on the wane for a while in Germany, but only now do alarm bells ring because it suits Ecclestone to use it as positive reinforcement for his anti-V6 stance... but he still has no feasible answers, because he has presided over that drop in popularity through lack of promotion. He's not up to the job of securing F1's long term future. He's a short term political game player.

Edited by P123, 10 April 2015 - 19:03.

[phoenix101]

Everyone dies, but not everyone truly ruins F1.

 

Anyway, I think the old troll is right, but I doubt Bernie could do anything other than build a vaudevillian side show. Turn on the sprinklers!!

[Newbrray]

Bernie's latest suggestion 

 

 

Ecclestone wants Mercedes power for entire grid

http://www.grandprix...ns/ns30520.html

[f1RacingForever]

well Bernie definitely deserves some blame with his questionable marketing strategies, but the rest resides with the FIA and their curious necessity to keep changing the rules and driving up costs. Who told them to switch to hybrids and ban in season development? Mercedes? i don't think so. People may question Horners motives, but i see a lot more sense in some of his ideas then those implemented by the FIA.

[Elba]

well Bernie definitely deserves some blame with his questionable marketing strategies, but the rest resides with the FIA and their curious necessity to keep changing the rules and driving up costs. Who told them to switch to hybrids and ban in season development? Mercedes? i don't think so. People may question Horners motives, but i see a lot more sense in some of his ideas then those implemented by the FIA.

The teams/manufacturers did notably Renault and Mercedes.

Do keep up will you

[f1RacingForever]

The teams/manufacturers did notably Renault and Mercedes.
Do keep up will you

They cannot be told to do anything. Suggestions are put forth. Whether or not they are accepted is not up to the teams.

[johnmhinds]

Bernie's latest suggestion 

 

 

Ecclestone wants Mercedes power for entire grid

http://www.grandprix...ns/ns30520.html

 

Some help Bernie find his marbles.

 

Yesterday: Mercedes engines are too expensive, they're killing F1!

 

Today: Lets make everyone use the Mercedes engine!

 

Edited by johnmhinds, 12 April 2015 - 21:53.