129 replies to this topic

[CountDooku]

I saw an interesting article in the Telegraph which basically says Jense should have called it a day last year when it was clear that the team didn't really want him any more.

 

There's obviously a bit of Captain Hindsight going on and there's the not inconsiderable £8million salary involved, but would he have been better moving to WEC like MW did rather than facing an uncertain future at McLaren?

 

Given he was also going to be paired with one of the best drivers of this generation and he'd already  won a WDC, what more did he have to prove?

 

linky

Edited by CountDooku, 10 April 2015 - 10:37.

[topical]

He's on a 1-year contract right? So he's nothing to lose. If the McLaren starts improving a lot he'll be very glad he stayed. If it continues to be a dog, he can walk away. I also suspect he'd dearly love to beat Alonso over a season. He knows he's not ranked in the same class as Alonso and Hamilton, but if he could finish ahead of each of them in the same car . . .

The only cruel thing for JB would be if the McLaren starts looking good at the end of the year and McLaren kick him out for 2016 before he can reap the rewards...

[K20a]

No

[Jvr]

I saw an interesting article in the Telegraph which basically says Jense should have called it a day last year when it was clear that the team didn't really want him any more.

 

There's obviously a bit of Captain Hindsight going on and there's the not inconsiderable £8million salary involved, but would he have been better moving to WEC like MW did rather than facing an uncertain future at McLaren?

 

Given he was also going to be paired with one of the best drivers of this generation and he'd already  won a WDC, what more did he have to prove?

 

linky

At least during today's drivers' interview he seemed to enjoy himself. I see he can still move to other series after the McLaren / Honda development era. So my answer would be no.

[sergey1308]

He is a great driver and I want him to stay. But of course someday he will have to go. WEC or Formula E will be a good place for him.

[GazWillsDSJ]

Nah, he's a top driver.... Button and Alonso will get on fine sorting this car out...

Edited by GazWillsDSJ, 09 April 2015 - 14:24.

[CountDooku]

He's on a 1-year contract right? So he's nothing to lose. If the McLaren starts improving a lot he'll be very glad he stayed. If it continues to be a dog, he can walk away. I also suspect he'd dearly love to beat Alonso over a season. He knows he's not ranked in the same class as Alonso and Hamilton, but if he could finish ahead of each of them in the same car . . .

The only cruel thing for JB would be if the McLaren starts looking good at the end of the year and McLaren kick him out for 2016 before he can reap the rewards...

 

I dunno, it's a shame to see a clearly talented driver trundling along at the back when the team didn't want him. At least we know Alonso will probably be kept for the long hall.

 

No

 

Useful contribution.

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

If the car is a dog even by the end and the team is non commital towards him he will probably leave them. No point sticking around.

If it improves and his feedback has been highly valuable then he may get another extension.

[Buttoneer]

He's been at the back before, with Honda too, and I think he relishes a challenge, as well as £8m a year. I'm pretty sure that he made the right decision in staying, even if he were to lose badly to Alonso this year. His name is on the biggest trophy already.

[sopa]

Doesn't he have a 2-year-deal?

 

In any case, it looks like Button will be the kind of experienced driver, who helps to re-build a team, but doesn't taste fruits. A bit like Coulthard at Red Bull (05-08) and Schumacher in Mercedes (10-12) in the twilight of their careers. The success of the team would come later and fruits will be tasted by other (younger) drivers.

 

I personally do not expect Button at the front of the field any more, so I think he should feel comfortable enough by having such a "development driver" role late in his career. But I guess for him it is better than racing in another series. For many drivers F1 is still the "pinnacle" and they haven't said "no" even to moving to lesser teams to extend their careers and still feel being part of F1 - Fisichella, Barrichello, Trulli, Coulthard, etc, among them.

[CountDooku]

He's been at the back before, with Honda too, and I think he relishes a challenge, as well as £8m a year. I'm pretty sure that he made the right decision in staying, even if he were to lose badly to Alonso this year. His name is on the biggest trophy already.

 

It's not really the issue of being a backmarker as happened in the Earth Nightmare, it's more to do it in the twilight of your career.

 

I think you should always retire on a high, leave them wanting more - see Prost and Schumi V1.

[Nemo1965]

Doesn't he have a 2-year-deal?

 

In any case, it looks like Button will be the kind of experienced driver, who helps to re-build a team, but doesn't taste fruits. A bit like Coulthard at Red Bull (05-08) and Schumacher in Mercedes (10-12) in the twilight of their careers. The success of the team would come later and fruits will be tasted by other (younger) drivers.

 

I personally do not expect Button at the front of the field any more, so I think he should feel comfortable enough by having such a "development driver" role late in his career. But I guess for him it is better than racing in another series. For many drivers F1 is still the "pinnacle" and they haven't said "no" even to moving to lesser teams to extend their careers and still feel being part of F1 - Fisichella, Barrichello, Trulli, Coulthard, etc, among them.

 

Eeehrm... I think that Schumacher, would he have stayed, would not have beaten Rosberg. And certainly not Hamilton. So even if he had stayed he would have not had the chance to really pick low-hanging fruit.

 

Regarding the topic: it depends on the season. If the whole year stays like this for McLaren-Honda, yeah, then obviously. But who knows...

[sopa]

It's not really the issue of being a backmarker as happened in the Earth Nightmare, it's more to do it in the twilight of your career.

 

I think you should always retire on a high, leave them wanting more - see Prost and Schumi V1.

 

Everyone's career is different. Prost and Schumacher were elite drivers, who could basically choose any team to drive for. Webber was a bit fortunate with "timing" to be in the dominant team at the end of his career.

 

For most it is a matter of compromise. And even if you are a great driver, you can still be at the wrong team - see Alonso. Then what can Button choose? If he wants to be in F1, then why not, even if it is not a "high".

[sopa]

Eeehrm... I think that Schumacher, would he have stayed, would not have beaten Rosberg. And certainly not Hamilton. So even if he had stayed he would have not had the chance to really pick low-hanging fruit.

 

Regarding the topic: it depends on the season. If the whole year stays like this for McLaren-Honda, yeah, then obviously. But who knows...

 

Even if it would have been a "low-hanging fruit", it would still probably have meant an odd race win. Which is better than P5, P7 or P10. I also do not think Coulthard would have had any chance against Vettel or Webber that late in his career, but getting podiums would be better than getting a P13!

 

Barrichello (2009) and Webber (till 2013) were a bit fortunate to be at the right place in the twilights of their careers. They didn't win the championships, obviously, but still were near the front of the field.

Edited by sopa, 09 April 2015 - 14:52.

[PayasYouRace]

If he's still enjoying it, then the answer is definitely a no.

[Imateria]

No, simply. He's driving well and seems to be enjoying the challenge of getting McLaren and Honda towards the front.

[CountDooku]

Everyone's career is different. Prost and Schumacher were elite drivers, who could basically choose any team to drive for. Webber was a bit fortunate with "timing" to be in the dominant team at the end of his career.

 

For most it is a matter of compromise. And even if you are a great driver, you can still be at the wrong team - see Alonso. Then what can Button choose? If he wants to be in F1, then why not, even if it is not a "high".

Were I in his shoes I would definitely have moved to WEC. Currently an extremely exciting championship from a tech perspective and there's now a world championship to boot so it's not like it's only Le Mans. Lots of new manufacturers entering as well.

 

But then £8m is a lot of cash....

[HoldenRT]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Beamer]

As long as you enjoy yourself and get paid 8m go for it. Jenson is the only one that can answer this question. He doesn't have to quit because fans want him out on a high.

[MrWorldwideJr]

Were I in his shoes I would definitely have moved to WEC. Currently an extremely exciting championship from a tech perspective and there's now a world championship to boot so it's not like it's only Le Mans. Lots of new manufacturers entering as well.

 

But then £8m is a lot of cash....

 

You seem to be coming at this from the perspective that the only reason that Button is still in F1 is money.  

Perhaps he just likes driving in F1 and thinks that he would enjoy driving in WEC less?  Perhaps for him the possibility of winning more F1 races is better than the possibility of winning in WEC?  

I tend to think that in general drivers' decision making is driven by enjoyment and just what they think they would have most fun doing rather than money far more than people on this forum give them credit for.

[Button4life]

1st, how do you know McLaren didn't want him? If they didn't want him they wouldn't have signed him surely. 2nd, he still enjoys racing so he shouldn't have retired

[Buttoneer]

It's not really the issue of being a backmarker as happened in the Earth Nightmare, it's more to do it in the twilight of your career.
 
I think you should always retire on a high, leave them wanting more - see Prost and Schumi V1.

You had to qualify your Schumi example, which says something.

I think he should hang around like a bad smell until he's sucked the sport dry for all the pennies they will give him even if it means he's seat blocking for a young turk. He loves what he's doing so as long as someone will pay, he should carry on.

It's not like the 70's where every race was chipping away at your chances of survival.

[DampMongoose]

Based on the last time I thought he should retire and move elsewhere, he ended up champion the following year.  Stick with it until you only have a pay drive available.

[CountDooku]

You seem to be coming at this from the perspective that the only reason that Button is still in F1 is money.  

Perhaps he just likes driving in F1 and thinks that he would enjoy driving in WEC less?  Perhaps for him the possibility of winning more F1 races is better than the possibility of winning in WEC?  

I tend to think that in general drivers' decision making is driven by enjoyment and just what they think they would have most fun doing rather than money far more than people on this forum give them credit for.

 

You'll note I mentioned other factors than money. It's more to do with competitiveness and generally trundling around at the back. Kinda ruins the memories.

[CountDooku]

1st, how do you know McLaren didn't want him? If they didn't want him they wouldn't have signed him surely. 2nd, he still enjoys racing so he shouldn't have retired

The article states that management didn't want him and he was only kept when the board intervened.

[CountDooku]

You had to qualify your Schumi example, which says something.

I think he should hang around like a bad smell until he's sucked the sport dry for all the pennies they will give him even if it means he's seat blocking for a young turk. He loves what he's doing so as long as someone will pay, he should carry on.

It's not like the 70's where every race was chipping away at your chances of survival.

 

The Schumi qualification actually proves my point. V1 retired and spawned countless arguments along the lines of..."If Schumi was back in the sport he would Tonk^TM XYZ drive".

 

But then V2 came back and killed the speculation by actually giving people an answer.

[Buttoneer]

I don't agree he did, but that's another discussion. The point is, Schumie didn't retire on a high, he merely had a hiatus. His enjoyment of participating exceeded his need to leave on a high.

Button should continue until he's bored or forced to pay.

[Dan333SP]

He's being paid more to drive a car around a track for a few days a year than most of us will earn in a lifetime. No, he shouldn't have retired. I think he has ambitions of becoming a professional triathlete when his F1 days are done (and he should be competitive, based on past results), but he's got a family and a financial legacy to think about and leaving millions of dollars on the table is not a smart move, even if the car is a turd.

[trogggy]

The article states that management didn't want him and he was only kept when the board intervened.

And everything on the internet is true.

[CountDooku]

I don't agree he did, but that's another discussion. The point is, Schumie didn't retire on a high, he merely had a hiatus. His enjoyment of participating exceeded his need to leave on a high.

Button should continue until he's bored or forced to pay.

 

You only know it was a hiatus in hindsight. My point is there was clearly friction with Ferrari. He could have moved to the McLaren or Renault seats in 07 but he chose to leave.

 

The friction is the parallel with Button. edit: Or at least the unwillingness of the team to retain him.

Edited by CountDooku, 09 April 2015 - 16:12.

[trogggy]

The friction is the parallel with Button.

Can you point to evidence of this friction?

[Atreiu]

Not really, he clearly remains competitive, if only McLaren could get it right.

 

As long as he doesn't pull a Barrichello and become a desperate seat beggar, it'll be fine.

[CountDooku]

And everything on the internet is true.

Of course not, but you can take it up with the Telegraph Media Group.

 

Post:

Telegraph Enquiries

Victory House

Meeting House Lane

Chatham

Kent

ME4 4TT

 

Phone:

UK freephone: 0800 316 6977

Overseas: 0044 1622 33 50 30

 

Please note that phone lines are open Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm GMT.

All incoming and outgoing calls are recorded for training, quality control and for confirming orders and information

[trogggy]

Of course not, but you can take it up with the Telegraph Media Group.

 

Post:

Telegraph Enquiries

Victory House

Meeting House Lane

Chatham

Kent

ME4 4TT

 

Phone:

UK freephone: 0800 316 6977

Overseas: 0044 1622 33 50 30

 

Please note that phone lines are open Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm GMT.

All incoming and outgoing calls are recorded for training, quality control and for confirming orders and information

You're the one taking it as gospel. 

Personally I take everything Daniel Johnson writes with a medium-sized pinch of salt.

This article has a whiff of '6 inches to fill, gotta rite sumfink'.

Even if true though, so what?

Preferring a different driver is not evidence of friction.

I haven't read any suggestion of friction between JB and team management.  What have I missed?

Edited by trogggy, 09 April 2015 - 16:05.

[CountDooku]

You're the one taking it as gospel. 

Personally I take everything Daniel Johnson writes with a medium-sized pinch of salt.

This article has a whiff of '6 inches to fill, gotta rite sumfink'.

Even if true though, so what?

Preferring a different driver is not evidence of friction.

I haven't read any suggestion of friction between JB and team management.  What have I missed?

 

I don't have anything specific, just pieces of information from articles written last year and murmurings on this forum. Mosaic work really, not gospel.

 

I tend not to take everything as true either, but then I don't have much time to question everything on the interweb either! Especially from a broadsheet.

Edited by CountDooku, 09 April 2015 - 16:10.

[Skaffen]

Of course not, but you can take it up with the Telegraph Media Group.

 

Post:

Telegraph Enquiries

Victory House

Meeting House Lane

Chatham

Kent

ME4 4TT

 

Phone:

UK freephone: 0800 316 6977

Overseas: 0044 1622 33 50 30

 

Please note that phone lines are open Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm GMT.

All incoming and outgoing calls are recorded for training, quality control and for confirming orders and information

 

Actually it's more to do with Daniel Johnson - he wrote an awful lot of stories at the end of last year which started off with "Button is definitely gone, the team and the management and the board  don't want him".  He then had to start backtracking pretty hard, and given what happened and what has been said I'd question his sources.

 

Some journalists don't like being proven wrong and that article just reads as a bit of sour grapes - more of a "I was right really, there was just some unusual circumstances that made me *look* wrong at the time".

[sopa]

McLaren didn't fall out with Button, but for a while they were unsure, who to keep - Button or Magnussen. This is normal business for F1 teams - it doesn't mean conflict, just genuine evaluation of which drivers are the best options to sign. Only late in the season, when it became obvious Button was comfortably beating Magnussen, McLaren's choice became more clear.

[scumbarma]

Couple of points.

1, Johnson is hardly the at the journalist peak and I would  add IMHO that this is one of those lets muddy the water and see if I can raise my readership number levels, as a bit,  of knocking Jenson is always fair game in F1, it gets a response.

2. Not sure if everyone at the big MAC all want to see Jenson out, I think they are quiet happy to have him around talking up this Zamboni/milk float/Road Roller of a car.

3, For 8 million I think he would have argeed to listen to Lewis's ex sing as well as drive for big MAC.

4 And finally , I think there is nothing higher  in mortorsport than F1 in Jensons head, WEC, V8 's Combine harvester racing are all just other genre, for him  F1 is it.

 

He should hang on whilst he has the ability ( which it would seem to be so) and enjoys it, has fun, and puts in the odd surprise now and then.

F1 has given him 100 million in the bank in return he has entertained us , got his WC and has still managed to be one of the very few gentlemen in the biz.

[trogggy]

I don't have anything specific, just pieces of information from articles written last year and murmurings on this forum. Mosaic work really, not gospel.

 

I tend not to take everything as true either, but then I don't have much time to question everything on the interweb either! Especially from a broadsheet.

 

Suggestions of friction between Button and who?

This is all news to me.

[trogggy]

McLaren didn't fall out with Button, but for a while they were unsure, who to keep - Button or Magnussen. This is normal business for F1 teams - it doesn't mean conflict, just genuine evaluation of which drivers are the best options to sign. Only late in the season, when it became obvious Button was comfortably beating Magnussen, McLaren's choice became more clear.

Absolutely.

 

Option 1 - old fart, good points scorer, expensive.

Option 2 - young whippersnapper, may make the grade, cheap as chips.

 

Preferring 2 to 1 doesn't mean there's friction between you and the old giffer.

 

 

edited for spulling and typso.

Edited by trogggy, 09 April 2015 - 16:20.

[MikeMM]

I saw an interesting article in the Telegraph which basically says Jense should have called it a day last year when it was clear that the team didn't really want him any more.

 

There's obviously a bit of Captain Hindsight going on and there's the not inconsiderable £8million salary involved, but would he have been better moving to WEC like MW did rather than facing an uncertain future at McLaren?

 

Given he was also going to be paired with one of the best drivers of this generation and he'd already  won a WDC, what more did he have to prove?

 

linky

 

Should have Alonso retired? Why dont you ask this question too?

[SanDiegoGo]

He is a great driver and I want him to stay. But of course someday he will have to go. WEC or Formula E will be a good place for him.

 

Hey come on man, no one deserves that.

[loki]

The way McLaren is running he has effectively retired.  Or has become the second most highly paid test driver on the grid, next to Fred.

[MrWorldwideJr]

Its not like Button (or anyone else) is going to look back and think that this season tarnishes his career or ruins the good memories of race wins and his championship is it?
As the OP said he has nothing left to provewhich gives him the freedom to do whatever he likes. Why would he waste that by passing up the chance to do something he obviously still loves doing just so that he doesn't 'ruin the memories'?
If McLaren improve we get a whole new set of good memories, maybe even more wins. If they don't its an insignificant footnote and we all remember 2009, Hungary 2006 etc. etc. just as we would have done anyway

[redraven9]

Jenson is one the best drivers on the grid (same level or better than Raikkonnen) - see: Canadian GP 2011, Hungary 2006, the season where he scored 3rd with BAR, 2009, beating Hamilton in scores in 3 years overall etc. Even last year was great. No, he should't retire.

Edited by redraven9, 09 April 2015 - 21:28.

[AlexS]

If he still likes it then he made the right decision.

[Ar558]

I'm sure he has a 2-year deal. That's part of why it took McLaren so long to decide as JB wanted 2 years. I would say if I was earning £8m I would keep going too! I'm sure he is hoping that as he didn't do too badly against LH he thinks if the car and engine are up to snuff in 16 he can give Fernando a run for his money. He can still go to WEC in 17.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

I am confused about the part "the team doesn't want him". After all those months, he got the seat.

 

What do many professional drivers aspire to? Being in Formula One. Has he been doing this long enough to feel comfortable doing his job? Yes. Does it pay well? Yes. Can he get a ride in another series once he leaves Formula One? Yes.

 

So what's the problem? Is he keeping some promising young talent from a seat? Of course, yes, but this is nothing new. Is he worried about his "legacy"? Newsflash, drivers want to race, they only worry about the next race.

 

 

Living large. Cool and exciting job, lots of money, hot wife.

[Waggy]

Eeehrm... I think that Schumacher, would he have stayed, would not have beaten Rosberg. And certainly not Hamilton. So even if he had stayed he would have not had the chance to really pick low-hanging fruit.

 

Regarding the topic: it depends on the season. If the whole year stays like this for McLaren-Honda, yeah, then obviously. But who knows...

 

Um in there last season together Schumacher out performed Rosberg, They tied 10-10 in the qualy battle something that Lewis couldnt do last year, and in races both finished Schumacher was ahead something 8-2. Schumacher have much more race pace than Rosberg. So I have no doubt in my mind Schumacher if he stayed would of won last year..

If Schumacher was paired with Hamilton the races between them would be much more competitive cos unlike Rosberg old Schumacher still had race pace.

[Rurouni]

Wait? I never heard about the management wanted to drop Button but the board didn't. Even if the management wanted to drop Button, that doesn't mean most of the people at McLaren racing didn't want Button. It might just mean that one person... yes one person only (which might be Ron Dennis) that wanted to drop Button. And it probably not because he disliked Button, but more about the potential for Magnussen as he is a lot younger than Button + he is cheap + he might attract new sponsors.

 

If you asked any team, and money doesn't matter, which one would you choose... Alo - But, Alo - Mag, But - Mag. I think the answer is obvious. And it's more obvious for a top team that wanted to win (which is basically choose the best driver available for now and not for the future).

 

So I don't know if they are going to race in China with the feeling that management don't want Button to be there, but I haven't felt that. Not China, not in Malaysia, not in Aussie, and not in testing. So whatever the management problem with Button is, it certainly didn't affect their race operation. Which is fine by me 

 

Should he retired? Why should he? The reasoning in that article didn't make any sense. He might not need to prove anything, but then why Alonso still want to race? How about Hamilton, Kimi, Vettel? And the fact that Button facing someone considered to be currently the best racing driver, I think that should motivate Button enough.