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#1 Frank de Jong

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Posted 16 April 2001 - 17:47

Hi everybody,

I just want to inform you about the updates on my Touring Car site, which tries to give you some statistics about the European Touring Car Championship. I've started with 1970, and it has reached 1972 now, so things start to get interesting. Fot the future, I'll try to cover earlier years as well as the 80's.
Feel free to take a look at http://www.euronet.nl/users/in004021/ or go.to/touringcars
Reactions, either here or email, are appreciated, and by the way, I'm interested in a list of ETC races from 1963 to 1967, since my library fails in that respect. Of course, I would be grateful for any other missing information, like a little more about Silverstone 1972.

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#2 William Dale Jr

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 16:28

Hi,
Frank, how far do you intend to go into the 80's? All the way to 1988, the ETC's final year? If so, would this include the 1987 WTCC, because I don't think there was an ETC held that year?

Love the site, by the way. Great to see that there is now such a site for touring car races of the past to join FORIX and WSPR :)

#3 Frank de Jong

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 17:34

If time permits, yes, I'll intend to stretch it as far as 1988. But I have to cover some poor years before that. Thanks for the reaction.

#4 David McKinney

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 19:51

Having dragged out this list, I’m now not sure how accurate it is. Actual dates for 1963, and some other years, might be slightly out, as my reports say things like “the following weekend”. At least the 1963 list of events is correct, as far as I know, but the later lists might include an occasional non-championship event by mistake.
But at least it should give you a starting point

1963
16/06 Nürburgring 6hrs
23/06 Mont Ventoux hillclimb (France)
06/07 The Motor 6hrs, Brands Hatch (biggest classes)
13/07 Mallory Park (smaller classes)
25/08 Zolder
01/09 Zandvoort
15/09 Timmelsjoch hillclimb (Austria)
22/09 Budapest

1964
--/05 Mallory Park
14/06 Mont Ventoux
21/06 Nürburgring 6hrs
25-26/07 Spa 24hrs
09/08 Karlskoga
04/10 Montlhéry
25/10 Coppa Europa, Monza

1965
19/03 Monza 4hrs
05/06 Mont Ventoux
--/-- Nürburgring 6hrs
--/-- Spa 24hrs
--/08 Zandvoort
others?

1966
20-21/03 Monza 4hrs
17/04 Aspern 1hr
08/05 Zolder 1hr
26/06 Mont Ventoux
03/07 Nürburgring 6hrs
23-24/07 Spa 24hrs
04/09 Zandvoort
--/-- Snetterton 500km
--/-- Budapest 4hr

1967
19/03 Monza 4hrs
02/04 Aspern
30/04 Belgrade 3hr
21/05 Zolder
28/05 Tourist Trophy, Oulton Park
11/06 Budapest
02/07 Nürburgring 6hrs
20/08 St Ursanne hillclimb (Switzerland)
27/08 Zandvoort
17/09 Snetterton 500km


#5 fines

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 19:59

Originally posted by William Dale Jr
If so, would this include the 1987 WTCC, because I don't think there was an ETC held that year?

There was an ETC in 1987, won by German Winnie Vogt who died recently IIRC. (ooops, I did it again! I answered a Touring Car question! :eek: )

#6 Frank de Jong

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 20:01

Thanks David :D
I'm thinking of quitting my daytime job to get this all finished ;)

Fines, in fact the ETC and WTC ran parallel in 1987, with races counting for both championships as well as races counting for ETC or WTC only, if i remember correctly. No wonder they stopped all of it after 1988...

#7 sat

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 21:28

1964 - 11 rounds
10.05. - Coupe Terlaemen - Zolder
16.05. - Motor National 3H race - Mallory Park
06.06.- Brands Hatch 6H (big classes)
14.06. - Mont Ventoux - hill climb
21.06. - GP der Tourenwagen
09.08. - Kanonloppet - Karlskoga
23.08. - St. Ursanne - hill climb
30.08. - Zandvoort Trophy
13.09. - Timmelsjoch - hill climb
20.09. - Budapesti Nagydíj
06.10. - Coppa Europa, Monza

1965 - ? rounds
19.03. - Coppa Monza
06.06. - Mt. Ventoux - hill climb
13.06. - GP der Tourenwagen
26.06. - Coupe Terlaemen - Zolder
08.08. - Kanonloppet - Karlskoga
15.08. - Snetterton 500 kms
22.08. - St. Ursanne - hill climb
29.08. - Zandvoort Trophy

1966 - 9 rounds
20-21.03.- Monza 4hrs
17.04. - Preis von Wien - Aspern 1hr
08.05. - GP Limbourg, Zolder 1hr
26.06. - Mont Ventoux (postponded??)
03.07. - GP der Torenwagen, Nürburgring 6hrs
23.-24.07. - Spa 24hrs
30.07. - Snetterton 500km
04.09. - Zandvoort Trophy
18.09. - Budapesti Nagydíj

1967 - 11 rounds
19.03. - Monza 4hrs
02.04. - Preis von Wien, Aspern
30.04. - Belgrade 3hr
21.05.. - GP Limbourg, Zolder
28.05. - Tourist Trophy, Oulton Park
11.06. - Budapesti Nagydíj
02.07.- Nürburgring 6hrs
22.-23.07. - Spa 24hrs
20.08. - St Ursanne hill climb
27.08.. - Zandvoort Trophy
07.09. - Snetterton 500km

1968 - 10 rounds
24.03. - Monza 4hrs
07.04. - Preis von Wien, Aspern
12.04. - Snetterton 500km
21.04. - Belgrade 3hr
05.05.. - GP Limbourg, Zolder
07.06.- Nürburgring 6hrs
18.08. - GP Brno
25.08. - Zandvoort Trophy
15.09. - Eigental - hill climb
29.09. - 3H Jarama


#8 MattFoster

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Posted 18 April 2001 - 00:32

Great Site, keep up the great work Frank.

#9 William Dale Jr

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Posted 18 April 2001 - 07:21

Originally posted by fines

There was an ETC in 1987, won by German Winnie Vogt who died recently IIRC.


Three o'clock in the morning is not a good time to be doing thinking. I just remembered that I read the obituary for Winnie Vogt in an Auto Action. From memory, I thought it said that he was the 1987 WTC Champion, but was sure that Roberto Ravaglia had won it. Thanks for clearing that up, fines :) BTW, the obituary was in a 1988 edition of Auto Action, he died from cancer, from memory.

#10 Frank de Jong

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Posted 28 April 2001 - 16:21

I just want to let you know the 1973 results are added, as well as a massive update for 1970, thanks to Stanislav.
Updates for 1971 and 1972 will be added soon, as well as 1974.
Any additions, comments or ideas are highly welcomed.
If you don't want to use the "go.to" link, use:
http://www.euronet.n...4021/index.html instead.


#11 Frank de Jong

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Posted 06 May 2001 - 12:21

The 1974 results are added, as well as a massive update for 1971, yet again thanks to Stanislav. (his comments on 1972 and 1973 have arrived as well, but it takes a lot of time to update the pages...)

Any additions, comments or ideas are, as usual, highly welcomed.
If you don't want to use the "go.to" link, use:
http://www.euronet.n...4021/index.html instead.

#12 Frank de Jong

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Posted 15 May 2001 - 20:25

The 1975 results are added now, as well as a massive update for 1972, 1973 and 1974, yet again thanks to Stanislav. I'm sure he will send his comments on 1975 soon :up:

I've decided to go backwards first, so expect some very meagre results from the early years of the ETC soon.

Any additions, comments or ideas are, as usual, highly welcomed.

#13 Flicker

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Posted 16 May 2001 - 13:01

backwards to what year.. 1970 or... 1963 ?:confused:

Posted Image
And this one esp. for Frank !
:stoned:

#14 Frank de Jong

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Posted 16 May 2001 - 18:31

Great picture! I guess it must be Brno 1970.
I'll probably start with 1968 and 1969, since I have some books and magazines to rely on; and then I'll have to see what I can find about 1963-1967. But with a little help from my friends...;)

#15 sat

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Posted 16 May 2001 - 23:16

I also vote for Brno.

#16 Flicker

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Posted 17 May 2001 - 04:08

Frank, Sat !

And I also... :stoned:

BTW, the same one was in the Ing. Zdenek Cizek's book "Mistrovstvi Evropy Cestovnich Avtomobilu".
(I'm quite sure that for You, sat... the translation not needed)
;)

#17 Frank de Jong

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Posted 17 May 2001 - 09:36

Well, fortunately I do own a czech-english dictionary, so I´ll find out...

#18 Flicker

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Posted 17 May 2001 - 12:16

Well, Frank...:)

it's not diffucult at all:

Championsip (Mistrovstvi) Europe (Evropy) Cestovnich (here - touring) and the last word means cars...;)

and one more pic of the car - dreadnought :cool: Posted Image

#19 Frank de Jong

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Posted 27 May 2001 - 18:44

1968 and 1969 are added now. I'll continue with 1963-1967. I'm afraid I can use a lot of help with that particular period...

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#20 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 May 2001 - 21:08

Frank

Through your own library and your various contacts, what magazines do you have access to? I guess you have Autosport, Motoring News and the better known mags. If I have something that you don't, I'd be happy to do a bit of photocopying for you.

For example, I have a single bound copy of the French Sport Auto 1971, which has partial grid lineups for Spa and Paul Ricard that year as part of lengthy reports. I also have Speed World International for 1968, and that lists all 34 finishers at Spa, 20 finishers at Nurburgring and even has a short report on Zolder.

Let me know.

Allen

#21 Frank de Jong

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Posted 28 May 2001 - 07:07

Allen, my "magazine" library started with some Dutch magazines in 1969 (I was only 10 years old then), from 1975 I have a lot of mainly German magazines. A few months ago, I could buy a near-complete German sport-auto set from 1971 to 1974. Any data from 1971 which is not included in the site is most welcome, since I included all I could find. The rest is taken from a lot of books, take a look at the "sources" page of the site; you´ll see that I don´t have any British or US magazines from that period (most of them were/are hard to get in the Netherlands).
So the answer to your question is: YES! Please!
Thanks for your kind offer :up:

#22 Frank de Jong

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Posted 23 June 2001 - 15:28

Hi everybody,

I'm happy to inform you of the biggest update to date; the results of 1963-1967.
I must confess that I was surprised how much information can be retrieved from books, for instance the fact that the Mont Ventoux hillclimb was a shared round for the ETC and the European Mountain Climb Championship. Now this specific hillclimb is covered on WSPR.com...
The points scoring system is still not quite clear to me. I've read that the margin between the winner and the next finishers was taken into account as well. This created hilarious situations, such as a race where 5 Saabs were leading, 4 of them stopped at the café at the circuit, to enable their leader to extend his lead.
however
Many other results are very incomplete or missing altogether, especially for Mallory park (63), Zolder (63), Zandvoort (63,66,67), Timmelsjoch (63), Budapest (63,64,66), karlskoga (64), St. Ursanne (64,67), Monza (66), Aspern (67), Belgrade (67) and Snetterton (67).
So, if anyone, anywhere can lend a hand to complete these (or any other!) results, I would be very grateful.
Since my internet connection is by cable, I would't mind to receive scanned championship tables, race reports etc. If you want to contribute in any other form, just send an email.

OK, this was the toughest part for me; 1976 etc will be a piece of cake ;)

#23 Roger Clark

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Posted 23 June 2001 - 17:44

Mallory PArk July 13 1963. Race was 3 hours duration open to cars up to 850cc

1 Bjorn Rothstein Saab 96, 155 laps in 2h 59m 39.0s 69.86mph
2 Hubert Hahne BMW 700 155 laps in 2h 5m 40.2s
3 gosta Karlsson Saab 96 154 laps in 2 59m 6.2s
4 J Fitzpatrick/R Broad austin mini 149 laps
5 Hans Braun/Josef Kramer NSU Prinz 146
6 Leo Hans Baron von Veh/Rob Slotemaker BMW 700 146

701-850cc Class

1 Rothstein
2 Karlsson
3 Fitzpatrick/Broad

up to 700cc Class

1 Hahne
2 Braun/Kramer
3 von Veh/Slotemaker

Team award
John Aley-Peter Clarke/John Aley, JohnThurston and Sheridan Thynne/Martin Ryan

#24 David McKinney

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Posted 24 June 2001 - 06:47

I have to confess I haven’t checked out your newest additions, Frank (later, later!), but it was more fun doing it this way. There may be something of use to you in the following:

1963
13/8 Mallory Park

Race was called The Motor 3hrs - The Motor 6hrs had been held for the bigger cars at Brands Hatch the week before

25/8 Zolder
1 Peter Nöcker (Jaguar 3.8)
2 Sparrow (Jaguar 3.8)
3 Tom Trana (Volvo 122S)
? Peter Lindner (Jaguar 3.8)
Over 2500: 1 Nöcker, 2 Sparrow
2500: 1 Luigi Cabella (Lancia Flaminia)
2000: 1 Trana
1600: 1 Leo Cella (Lancia Flavia)
1300: 1 Rob Slotemaker (Mini), 2 Peter Procter (Mini), 3 Julien Vernaeve (Mini)
1000: 1 Dieter Mantzel (DKW F12)
850: 1 Gösta Karlsson (Saab 96), 2 Gustav Bontemps (DKW F11), 3 Bjørn Rothstein (Saab 96)
700: 1 J Grähser (BMW 700)

01/9 Zandvoort
1 Sparrow (Jaguar 3.8)
2 Tom Trana (Volvo 122S)
3 Luigi Cabella (Lancia Flaminia).
Over 2500: 1 Sparrow
2500: 1 Cabella
2000: 1 Trana
1600: 1 Jack Sears (Ford Cortina), 2 Franco Patria (Lancia Flavia)
1300: 1 Rob Slotemaker (Mini), 2 John Thurston (DKW F12), 3 Hans-Dieter Dechent (Alfa Romeo Giulietta)
1000: 1 Dieter Mantzel (DKW F12), 2 John Richard Aley (Mini)
850: 1 Gösta Karlsson (Saab 96)
700: 1 Hubert Hahne (BMW 700)

15/09 Timmelsjoch
1 Peter Nöcker (Jaguar 3.8)
Over 2500: 1 Nöcker
2500: 1 Luigi Cabella (Lancia Flaminia)
2000: 1 Tom Trana (Volvo 122S)
1600: 1 Leo Cella (Lancia Flavia)
1300: 1 Rob Slotemaker (Mini)
1000: 1 Gianpiero Biscaldi (Fiat-Abarth 1000TC)
850: 1 John Thurston (DKW F11)
700: 1 Hubert Hahne (BMW 700)

22/09 Budapest
1 Peter Lindner/Peter Nöcker (Jaguar 3.8)
2 Jochen Neerpasch (Volvo 122S)
3 Peter Nöcker/Peter Lindner (Jaguar 3.8)
Over 2500: 1 Lindner/Nöcker, 2 Nöcker/Lindner
2500: 1 Luigi Cabella/Carlo Facetti (Lancia Flaminia)
2000: 1 Neerpasch
1600: 1 Ernst Furtmayr (Alfa Romeo Giulia TI)
1300: 1 Rob Slotemaker (Mini)
1000: 1 Dieter Mantzel (DKW F12)
850: 1 Gösta Karlsson (Saab 96)
700: 1 Hubert Hahne (BMW 700)


1964
20/9 Budapest Nagydíj

Nothing known

9/8 Karlskoga
1 John Whitmore (Ford Lotus-Cortina)
2 Henry Taylor (Ford Lotus-Cortina)
3 Alan Mann (Ford Galaxie)
4 E Berger (Ford Lotus-Cortina)

23/8 St Ursanne
Nothing known


1966
20-21/3 Monza 4hrs

1 Andrea de Adamich/Teodorico Zeccoli (Alfa Romeo GTA)
2 Enrico Pinto/"Geki" (Alfa Romeo GTA)
3 Gerhard Schuler (Alfa Romeo GTA)
4 Giancarlo Baghetti/Rob Slotemaker (Alfa Romeo GTA)
5 Trosch (Alfa Romeo GTA)
6 Moncini/Donxx (Alfa Romeo GTA)
7 “Nanni/Sangrilà” (Alfa Romeo GTA)
1000: 1 Giancarlo Baghetti (Fiat-Abarth)

4/9 Zandvoort
1 Andrea de Adamich (Alfa Romeo GTA)
2 "Nanni" (Alfa Romeo GTA)
3 Frank Gardner (Ford Lotus-Cortina)
1600: 1 de Adamich, 2 “Nanni”, 3 Gardner, 4 John Whitmore (Ford Lotus-Cortina), 5 Jacky Ickx (Ford Lotus-Cortina)

18/9 Budapest 4hrs
1 Enrico Pinto/Ignazio Giunti (Alfa Romeo GTA)
2 Teodorico Zeccoli (Alfa Romeo GTA)
3 Damseaux/Trosch (Alfa Romeo GTA)
4 Killenberg (BMW)
5 Stumpf (Ford Lotus-Cortina)
DNF Andrea de Adamich (Alfa Romeo GTA)
1600: (as overall)


1967
2/4 Aspern

1 Nanni Galli (Alfa Romeo GTA)
2 Karl von Wendt (Porsche 911)
3 Trosch (Alfa Romeo)
DNF Ignazio Giunti (Alfa Romeo GTA)
1300: 1 Baumgarten (Mini)
1000: 1 Willibert Kauhsen (Fiat-Abarth)

30/4 Belgrade 3hrs
1 Giorgio Pianta (Porsche 911)
2 Karl von Wendt (Porsche 911)
DNF Enrico Pinto
1600: 1 Ignazio Giunti (Alfa Romeo GTA)
1300: 1 Claudio Maglioli (Lancia Fulvia)
1000: 1 Arturo Merzario (Fiat-Abarth)

20/8 St Ursanne
1 Karl von Wendt (Porsche 911)
1300: 1 A N Other (Mini), 2 Claudio Maglioli (Lancia Fulvia)
1000: 1 Willibert Kauhsen (Fiat-Abarth)
850: 1 Blatter (Fiat-Abarth), 2 Franco Galli (Fiat-Abarth)

27/8 Zandvoort
1 Ben Pon (Porsche 911)
2 Andrea de Adamich (Alfa Romeo GTA)
1300: 1 Claudio Maglioli (Lancia Fulvia)
1000: 1 Ed Swart (Fiat-Abarth)
850: 1 Scholl (Fiat-Abarth)

7/9 Snetterton 500km
1 Leo Cella/Giuliano Facetti (Lancia Fulvia)
2 Gordon Spice/Costello (Mini)
3 Willibert Kauhsen/Toine Hezemans (Fiat-Abarth)
1300: 1 Cella/Facetti, 2 Spice/Costello
1000: 1 Willibert Kauhsen/Toine Hezemans (Fiat-Abarth)
850: 1 Franco Galli (Fiat-Abarth)

#25 Roger Clark

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Posted 24 June 2001 - 07:45

A little more detail on David's Zolder result There were three races, each of 30 mins duration. This was the first car race meeting to be held at Zolder

25/8 Zolder

Over 1300cc
1 Peter Nöcker (Jaguar 3.8) 30m 48.8s 122.207kph
2 Sparrow (Jaguar 3.8) 31m 03.4s
3 Tom Trana (Volvo 122S) 31m 33.7s
4 L Cella (Lancia Flavia) 31m 38.1s
5 F Patria (Lancia Flavia) 31m 88.1s
E Furtmayer (Alfa Romeo Guulia TI) 31m 39.3s
Fastest lap Nöcker 2m 0.8s 124.688kph
? Peter Lindner (Jaguar 3.8)
Over 2500: 1 Nöcker, 2 Sparrow
2500: 1 Luigi Cabella (Lancia Flaminia)
2000: 1 Trana
1600: 1 Leo Cella (Lancia Flavia)

851-1300cc
1300: 1 Rob Slotemaker (Mini-cooper S) 30m 55.3s 121.789kph
2 Peter Procter (Mini-cooper S ) 31m 02.3s,
3 Julien Vernaeve (Mini-Cooper S) 31m 27.4s
4 J Thurston (Mini-Cooper S) 31m 31.8s
5 D Mantzel (DKWF12) 31m 41.9s
6 H-D Decent (Alfa romeo Giulietta TI) 14 laps
Class Winners
Sltemaker, Dieter Mantzel (DKW F12)

up to 850cc
850: 1 Gösta Karlsson (Saab 96) 30m 58.1s 111.488kph
2 Gustav Bontemps (DKW F11) 31m 05.8s,
3 Bjørn Rothstein (Saab 96) 31m 10.3s
4 J Grahner (BMW 700)31m 32.5s
5 H Wagner (Fiat-Abarth 850TC) 32m 44.4s
6 M Lefebvre (Fiat-Abarth 850TC) 13 laps
Fastest lap Bontemps 2m 10.6s 115.333kph
700: 1 J Grähser (BMW 700)

#26 Frank de Jong

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Posted 24 June 2001 - 09:25

Thanks everybody so far. Stanislav has already sent his comments on 1963, so we're getting somewhere!
It really is a pleasure, albeit a little absorbing, to find out what really happened in those years. A costly experience as well - I ran across a yearbook about the 1964 season at Monza, of course with the results of the 1964 ETC race. Of course, I could't resist buying it. :rolleyes: Later, I found some Dutch magazines of 1964 and 1966.

So, if anyone needs the results of let's say the Monza F3 race of 1964, you know where to get them. :cool:

#27 Roger Clark

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Posted 24 June 2001 - 13:57

Frank, would you mind letting us know what other information you have? I have more but I don't want to repeat what you already have.

#28 Frank de Jong

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Posted 24 June 2001 - 14:21

Roger, apart from the information of this thread, Stanislav has already sent his comments on 1963-1964. A quick look reveals that 63 consists of a great Nürburgring score and some extra details on the posts of this thread. 1964 he has covered all the races.
I've used all of my own sources before posting the site (including the Monza book etc.)
I'll try to update the site this week, so perhaps you rather wait until then.
However, I don't mind double information; it gives me a way to cross-check.
What I've learnt so far from the feedback from all of you:
The Lancia Flavia's were 1500 cc cars rather than 1800
The Lancia Flaminia cars were 2500 cc cars rather than 2800
(I see a pattern developing...)
There must have been a 2500 cc class, since some of you state winners; so, 2001-2500 is class 8, over 2500 is class 9. Probably the classes have been combined when too few cars were entered in class 8 (montoux?)
Stanislav stated the poinst system as 12-10-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 in 63, for 64: 7-5-3-2-1, but, as he states: "miminální po_et startujících 5, jinak se t_ídy slu_ují zapo_ítáno 5 závod_+2 vrchy", some characters missing because of a little Macintosh/unicode problem, my Czech dictionary will help me out, I guess the first part is minimum 5 starters.
The final points standings for 1964 would still be welcome (Stanislav provided 1963).
So far:

Thank You All!

#29 Roger Clark

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Posted 24 June 2001 - 16:36

This is from Autosport's review of the 1963 Touring Car races. It looks as though it was 12 points for a win with the best five to count. THere is more detail in the reports of the individual events, although they didn't cover every one. the scanning is not perfect but if there's anything you want but can't read, let me know.


http://www.jumbani.d...co.uk/etc63.JPG

http://www.jumbani.d.../etc63final.JPG

#30 sat

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Posted 24 June 2001 - 21:43

To Frank,

I can translate is aproximatedly so: minimal count of starters in class is 5, in opposite fall is to merge classes.
Second: from all results is count best 5 circuit and 2 hill climb results. I appologise not translate it before.
Is very difficult to find right result of that time becouse of little interest of temporary press. One of best I know is swiss Automobile revue, but is not easy to use this (because of format).

#31 Frank de Jong

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Posted 25 June 2001 - 20:19

Hello again,

I've been working on 1963 to show you I actually use your input (and to keep you going...).
Personally I'm very :) with the result; every race is now covered to some extent.
Of course, still more results are wellcome, especially grid positions, 2nd-3rd-etc in class for some races.
A few questions :confused: remain. Some easy ones, like the cars involved. Although not quite certain, cars like the Skoda Octavia TS, Fiat 1500, Sunbeam Rapier can be guessed, simply because the alternatives are not very likely.
On 2nd and 3rd in class 3 for Zolder, opinions are contradicting, just like the Budapest winner; was it the Lancia, or were 2 Jaguars 1st and 3rd? I've chosen the Lancia, since it was a class winner anyway, and Stanoslav's results gave no alternative Lancia.
2 Jaguars and only 2 drivers - that would have been a great pitstop, swapping cars. Since Nöcker was leading the championship, it wouldn't have been a bad thing though.
Last one: Stanislav mentions a "Peter Scherrer" from Switzerland in an Abarth, I would guess that this should be Peter Schetty, can anyone confirm this?
It has been a great exercise so far, thank you all, especially Stanislav (Sat, I presume?), David McKinney and Roger Clark.

#32 Roger Clark

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Posted 25 June 2001 - 21:51

Budapest: Autosport who clearly didn't have a reporter at the race said:

"The results orginally gave Lindner and Nocker as victors as they certainly appeared to be. But the fact that they drove two different cars to ensure that Nocker was in the winning car to score maximum points in the championship caused some confusion. The alternative winners, so to speak, were Carlo Facetti and Luigi Cabella in a Lancia Flaminia which, according to our second source of information narrowly beat the Volvo 122S driven by Jochen Neerpasch; the same source gave Nocker ahead of te Furtmayr Alfa. Rob Slotemaker (Mini Cooper S) finished in fifthe position and won his class, as did Hahne in a BMW, Karlsson in the Saab and Mantzel in the DKW"

I don't know what that means. Their published result had Lindner/Nocker first, Neerpasch 2nd and Nocker/Lindner 3rd, Faceti/Cabella are listed as class winners but not in the overall first three.

It would appear that the use of two drivers sharing two cars was purely to gain maximum points advantage.

Then there's the question of Nocker'stotal points: He won at Nurburgring, Zolder, Timmelsjoch and (perhaps) Budapest, and was second at Brands Hatch. How do you get 60 points from that? One possibility is that you had to be registered for the championship to score points and that Salvadori/Hulme weren't, giving 12 points to Nocker who came second.

#33 Frank de Jong

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Posted 26 June 2001 - 12:32

What I can think of is that he finished in Zandvoort to gain the missing 3 points.
I´ll try to calculate the final classification when I have a little time, perhaps one of the 5 ex-aeqo drivers gives us a clue...

#34 Roman

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Posted 27 June 2001 - 06:14

I am looking to ETC sites, especilly the hillclimb events.

1963 Mont Ventoux - in my data: Björn Rothstein, Saab 96 Sport, time 15:54,1, 1st in Gr.2-850cc - in Franks ETC site I did not find him!
Massoneri, I have 16:15,1??
1964 Mont Ventoux OK!
1965 Mont Ventoux - I have F.Masoero, not Mansoera??, Calascibetta x Trenti - I have Trenti x Calascibetta
1966 Mont Ventoux OK!

Very great job, me and my brother have some photos from Brno 19884-86 (?) but all of them are "dia"... bad for scanning...

#35 sat

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Posted 27 June 2001 - 07:45

Stanislav mentions a "Peter Scherrer" from Switzerland in an Abarth, I would guess that this should be Peter Schetty, can anyone confirm this?



I seriously doubt is the same man.

#36 Roman

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Posted 27 June 2001 - 07:56

Peter Schetty - 1966 (Shelby Ford GT350), 1967-68 (Abarth 2000SP), 1969 (Ferrari 212E)
A. Scherrer - 1956 (Mercedes 300SL)
Scherrer/CH - 1970 (Opel Kadett)
=> I cannot say if Scherrer is Schetty, but it is sure (?) that Scherrer from CH racd in 1970 with Mercedes, could it be possible to change works Ferrari prototype for 300SL? Impossible, this is why some Scherrer from CH raced at that times... My opinion is - they are not one person.

#37 Frank de Jong

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Posted 27 June 2001 - 17:06

OK, I'm convinced!

#38 Frank de Jong

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Posted 27 June 2001 - 18:12

Originally posted by Roman
I am looking to ETC sites, especilly the hillclimb events.

1963 Mont Ventoux - in my data: Björn Rothstein, Saab 96 Sport, time 15:54,1, 1st in Gr.2-850cc - in Franks ETC site I did not find him!
Massoneri, I have 16:15,1??
1964 Mont Ventoux OK!
1965 Mont Ventoux - I have F.Masoero, not Mansoera??, Calascibetta x Trenti - I have Trenti x Calascibetta
1966 Mont Ventoux OK!


Roman, my Mont Ventoux data is taken from wspr-racing.com, you're probably familiar with that site ;) I added mainly some car data, did a bit of cleaning, made an overall result and threw in the odd starting number.
Concerning Rothstein: wspr states 15':;4"1, which I translated into 15.04,1, class winner, 5th overall, perhaps a bit optimistic. Karlsson, 2nd in class, has a time of 15.50,2, so the time you state would make Karlsson class winner. What time do you have for Karlsson then?
Massoneri, same problem? 16'1:;"1. I'll change that, you're probably right there.
Masoero OK, then wspr:
1- CALASCIBETTA l Fiat-Abarth 850 TC Corsa 14'21"1 RB 91,267
2- TRENTI I Fiat-Abarth 850 TC Corsa 14'20"9
If the times are correct, Trenti should be class winner of course, but you'll understand why I messed up...
Thanks for the comments!

#39 Roman

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Posted 28 June 2001 - 11:22

Unfortunately www.wspr-racing.com no longer belong to my brother... and the Mont Ventoux results are added by the current owner of that sites. I secretely hoped, you have some better source... My information are also from that pages, you are probably right, only Rothstein time I will translated as 15:44,1.... I would like to know from what book it was OCRing, that must be some book about Mont Ventoux race, but I dont know any like that. Thank you for corrections!

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#40 Frank de Jong

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Posted 30 June 2001 - 12:14

The updates of 30/6: 1964 (big!) and 1969. Stanislav already provided a lot of 1965-1967 information, expect big updates in the coming week.

#41 Frank de Jong

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Posted 03 July 2001 - 20:18

Hello again,

1965 is updated and much more complete now. Thanks to Stanislav, once again.
I'm still curious of any full championship scoring tables of the 1963-1969 period. If anyone could provide these, that would be great.

#42 Frank de Jong

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Posted 10 July 2001 - 20:32

OK, 1966 is updated, thanks to you-know-who and the posts on the first page of this thread.
1967 still to go; but I've started with 1976 as well. Keep surfing.

#43 Frank de Jong

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Posted 15 July 2001 - 10:33

Last great update for the early years: 1967 looks a bit better now. Thanks once again to Stanislav and David McKinney. Some question marks are still there, especially in the final classification.
As usual, any comments or additions are welcomed.
OK, I'll get on with 1976 now.

#44 Frank de Jong

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Posted 29 July 2001 - 19:30

Well, the first year of a new ETC decade is ready now. 1976 is added to my website.
Any help is still very much appriciated.

#45 Frank de Jong

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 19:43

I'm afraid yet another year on the ETC site is ready. 1977 is up and running, together with updates for 76 (thanks to SAT) and some other small updates like some sort of banner.
Question : can anyone confirm the cancellation of the last two rounds of '77 (Ricard and Estoril)? The fact that I couldn't find any report is hardly comforting in that respect. The cancellation of the last rounds has another side effect that I didn't find a final classification anywhere. I know that Quester was the champion; but how he did that remains a mystery for me. :confused: Look at the championship table and see what I mean.
Enjoy the site, comments are as always very welcome.

#46 Jeremy Jackson

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 20:14

Frank,

Estoril took place on October 16th, but Ricard was cancelled. At the time of Jaguar's withdrawal (Zolder), it appeared that this would be the other way round, i.e Estoril was doubtful.

I have the first 6 for Estoril, plus race-by -race point if you need them.

Quester/Grano were 2nd at Estoril, by the way.

#47 fines

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 20:19

The Estoril race took place on Oct 16,1977.

1 Facetti/Finotto, BMW 3,0 CSL (Luigi)
2 Quester/Grano, BMW 3,0 CSL (Alpina)
3 Xhenceval/Dieudonné, BMW 3,0 CSL (Luigi)
4 de Wael/Joosen, BMW 3,0 CSL (Luigi)
5 Brun/Kelleners, BMW 320 (Eggenberger)
6 Siegrist/Stocker, VW Scirocco
7 Formera/Franz, Alfa Romeo GTV

The last round at Le Castellet was cancelled for financial reasons.

Championship:
1 Quester, 125
2 Xhenceval, 119
2 Dieudonné, 119
2 Facetti, 119
5 Finotto, 107
6 Joosen, 97

1 BMW (V), 220
2 BMW (III), 180
2 VW (II), 180
4 Alfa Romeo (I), 175
5 Alfa Romeo (III), 152
6 Alfa Romeo (IV), 116
7 BMW (IV), 109

Source: autodrom 10, A. Eugen von Keller Verlag, Bonn, Germany, 1978

#48 Frank de Jong

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Posted 11 August 2001 - 21:05

Wow. A little more than half an hour. Thanks, you're great! :D

#49 Frank de Jong

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Posted 12 August 2001 - 12:39

OK, Estoril is added now; the final classifications are nearly OK (probably in Mugello Finotto was Facetti's co-pilot, in contrast to my sources, can anyone confirm?); the only thing which puzzles me is the total points for Alfa in division 3 - I can't get more than 147...

Thanks!

#50 Jeremy Jackson

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Posted 12 August 2001 - 13:53

Autosport's season review says that Facetti / Finotto raced together at Mugello.

Don't know if any other reports conflict with that...