31 replies to this topic

[Sanzx81]

Agree-disagree

My mate thinks delta times should be banned from radio messages, forcing drivers to "race" or manage the car themselves, instead of cruising around to a set time to preserve the tyres etc etc.

Driving to match a set time isn't racing.
(Btw, not aimed at any particular driver or team)

[RealRacing]

Delta times should not be banned from radio, they should be banned from F1...

[Otaku]

Just ban radio and telemetry altogether.

[HoldenRT]

It was never an issue back when drivers used to push every lap, which is what you'd expect from any other race (swimming, running etc).  Sounds like a bandaid fix for a bigger problem.

[pdac]

All radio communications should be banned, with the exception of communications made soley for safety reasons. Radio communication has no place in racing.

[redreni]

It was never an issue back when drivers used to push every lap, which is what you'd expect from any other race (swimming, running etc).  Sounds like a bandaid fix for a bigger problem.

 

Do you expect marathon runners to run as fast as they can all the time? They would go flat out if it was the quickest way to get to the end, but since it's not, they pace themselves. Same is true in F1.

 

The question is, should the team be allowed to help the driver by telling him what pace he needs to keep up, based on what they know about his track position relative to the others, anticipated deg and all the other factors that feed in to the calculation of the delta time they give to the driver.

 

To my mind, it is most definitely incoherent to ban teams from discussing lines with a driver when he's on his in-lap in FP1, thereby forcing them to wait and then have the exact same conversation once the driver is back in the garage, on the basis that this offends against the principle of the cars being driven alone and unaided, and then to allow teams to give drivers delta times. If you ask a driver if he'd rather do without advice on driving lines for a whole weekend, or do a race without delta times, it would be a pretty easy decision. Either you're allowed to aid the driver by giving him information or you're not, the assumption throughout the history of the sport has always been that you can, and there are serious questions to be asked and answered about how practical it would be to ban all assistance of this nature given that the cars have evolved and been designed on the basis that you can talk to the driver during a session and get him to alter his inputs according to the situation.

 

If you wanted to change that without thinking it through very, very thoroughly, it could have reliability and safety implications. But I wouldn't be opposed on principle to changing the basic principle so that the driver is basically on his own once he's in the car; to be honest, I'm happy enough either way.

Edited by redreni, 12 April 2015 - 20:49.

[Sunnyy]

Agree-disagree

My mate thinks delta times should be banned from radio messages, forcing drivers to "race" or manage the car themselves, instead of cruising around to a set time to preserve the tyres etc etc.

Driving to match a set time isn't racing.
(Btw, not aimed at any particular driver or team)

 

 

Or maybe Pirelli could go back to 2014 tyres where they could race? 

[Mendel]

Giving a faster delta to driver ahead seems a little less wrong but it is still a small team order...
whats then stopping them to give a slower delta to driver behind... the medium team order to not let them fight... or slow delta to driver ahead and fast delta to one behind so thats the big team order to change track position... do this during pitstops and its less blatant.

Edited by Mendel, 13 April 2015 - 10:07.

[paulogman]

no problem with it at all,

strategy and race management are just as important as raw pace.
as a Williams fan I should be dead set against any thing to do with strategy because we are awful at it lol, but part of the sport is matching wits on the fly and maybe a slower car winning because the team were better. other wise, you could just hand out the trophy after qualifying

Edited by paulogman, 13 April 2015 - 10:49.

[SenorSjon]

@redreni

 

They don't have to do multiple stints with the same 'engine'. Most of the deltadriving is due to SC ruining your advantage (and they are quite triggerhappy using it) and saving all kinds of parts for the next 4 weekends. When pole is at 1:35.7 and fastest race lap is 1:42.2 (lap 31!) they are seriously saving everything. All but Merhi had a faster Q-time than the FL. In the past (2005 for example) the FL was 1.33.2 with tires that lasted the whole race. Pole was 1:34.1 due to having race fuel onboard.

[redreni]

@redreni

 

They don't have to do multiple stints with the same 'engine'. Most of the deltadriving is due to SC ruining your advantage (and they are quite triggerhappy using it) and saving all kinds of parts for the next 4 weekends. When pole is at 1:35.7 and fastest race lap is 1:42.2 (lap 31!) they are seriously saving everything. All but Merhi had a faster Q-time than the FL. In the past (2005 for example) the FL was 1.33.2 with tires that lasted the whole race. Pole was 1:34.1 due to having race fuel onboard.

 

Marathon runners have to use the same legs and feet and lungs for each and every event, and if in one particular event they only need to do a time good enough to qualify for a more prestigeous event which takes place not long afterwards, the better runners are likely to leave quite a lot of performance in their locker.

 

Of course people aren't doing comparable times in the race to what they can do in qualy. Even if they judge their fuel use perfectly so they finish the race with just enough left for the slowing down lap and the sample, the final lap is the only lap of the race when they're on a similar fuel load to the one they qualified on, and by then the tyres are going to be over 20 laps old - how on earth would you expect them to get anywhere near a qualy time? It doesn't necessarily mean they're not pushing (although admittedly a lot of people aren't pushing in the closing laps because they're not in a close battle), but even if they are pushing, they're pushing on worn tyres so the laptimes aren't particularly quick - what's wrong with that?

Edited by redreni, 13 April 2015 - 12:47.

[Spillage]

Yup, ban 'em. It's another example of teams telling drivers how to drive. 'Look after your tyres' should be fine, 'look after your tyres by driving a 1:42.xxx' ought to be illegal.

[Szoelloe]

"delta time" is indigenous in nearly every timed mid-long distance performance sport event. I have no problem with delta time in F1 per se, I have a problem with it when it is only used because of constant tyre-limitation. 

[SenorSjon]

Pushing is not the term. When Vettel stated he couldn't go faster, it was probably due to tires self-destructing within 2 laps if he were to try a 1:38. There was so much performance left in the bag, even with 20 lap old tires you wouldn't lose 7 seconds on your Q time.

[TheCaptain]

I do think the racing would be more interesting without this.    I'm fairly sure this has always gone on in F1 so some extent - we just hear about it more now because of the radio feeds we get.  Personally I'd rather that all communication was limited to safety information.    The teams would be quite happy if they could replace *every* aspect of the driver and drive it remotely if they could, but that doesn't make for interesting racing.  

 

We just don't have the sort of drama of a driver running out of fuel on the last lap simply because everything is so micromanaged for the driver.     Mistakes are what make the racing interesting, whether it's a driver being pressured into a driving error, a missed gear change, running wide into a gravel trap and having to work his way back through the field... My point being that to make things more interesting we need to make it easier for drivers to make mistakes themselves.    I'd love it even more if drivers had to make their own calls on pit strategy as it would really benefit thinking drivers and we wouldn't end up with the kind of whinging we had from Rosberg this weekend, and might get some more chaotic pit stops as crews scramble for tyres.   

[Frank Tuesday]

Just ban radio and telemetry altogether.

Car to pit is fine with the complexity of the cars these days.  There should be only two things that should be allowed in pit to car telemetry/radio: 

1.) Retire car to pits

2.) Retire car immediately
 

Makes it easy for the FIA to police.  Since the team is issuing retire orders to drivers, the FIA can stop scoring the car as soon as the signal is issued.  The will stop the teams from trying to send coded messages.

[Razoola]

The FIA had the right idea when they first suggested the radio ban. I get why they then relaxed it but they relaxed it too far.

[chipmcdonald]

Fuel restrictions would still exist.  Fuel restrictions are the problem.

[Szoelloe]

Fuel restrictions would still exist.  Fuel restrictions are the problem.

 

I agree. Fuel restriction is plain dumb, and totally unnecessary in racing.

[Tomecek]

Ban F1

[Szoelloe]

Ban F1

Absolutely.

[J2NH]

The problem isn't delta times, the problem is that the tires and fuel flow make this more like 2 hour endurance racing rather than traditional F1.

[Paco]

All radio communications should be banned, with the exception of communications made soley for safety reasons. Radio communication has no place in racing.

Agreed but them how about a coded msg of temps to high aka slow it down...
Or temps getting cold, can you try and push. ..

Those are safety..

I do agree the drivers are fed way way to make over the radio..

[Paco]

The problem isn't delta times, the problem is that the tires and fuel flow make this more like 2 hour endurance racing rather than traditional F1.

Yup. That said, I wouldn't say traditional as past era had enduro times too.. Just not what the late 80 to late 90... Were like.

[jonpollak]

Funny you should start a topic with what I was looking at 2 minutes ago..

 

 

Jp

Edited by jonpollak, 13 April 2015 - 20:39.

[Rob]

Bike racing doesn't have radios. F1 doesn't need them either.

[tmekt]

Bike racing doesn't have radios. F1 doesn't need them either.

F1 has radios. Bike racing needs them too.

[ploki]

Err bike racing has radios. At least the big road ones. "Tour the France, vuelta a España and the Giro"

[Rob]

Err bike racing has radios. At least the big road ones. "Tour the France, vuelta a España and the Giro"

 

I meant motorcycle racing.

[Nathan]

I thought it was a team sport??  Drivers drive, engineers think.

 

The problem isn't delta times, the problem is that the tires and fuel flow make this more like 2 hour endurance racing rather than traditional F1.

 

What is your opinion on the quality of F1 racing from say 1984 through 1993?  How about the 50's?

Edited by Nathan, 14 April 2015 - 23:17.

[josepatches]

We could ban everything and there would be complains about the drivers' seat or the buttons in the steering wheel.

[Rakaman]

Err bike racing has radios. At least the big road ones. "Tour the France, vuelta a España and the Giro"

 

Well, it's not like they can just write "Lance, shoot up some more steroids" into a pit board. 

 

But really delta times are kinda letting the engineers do the racing for the racing drivers, but unfortunately you can't race on tires that are basically swiss cheese. It would be nice if someone were to be like "Guys, what's my delta time?" And the team replied, "Well, when you see the guy in your mirror get bigger, go faster". That would pretty much fix the problem. But they can't. The actual racing would destroy the tires.   

Edited by Rakaman, 15 April 2015 - 00:15.