207 replies to this topic

[emmanuelrubi]

One has a rubbish engine so far but lots of $$$ and two good drivers the other have the best engine available and two decent drivers but not much $$$ who will loss this battle by the end of the season ?

Edited by emmanuelrubi, 13 April 2015 - 14:44.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

McLaren and Honda will improve, a lot.

[Szoelloe]

I can't choose.

[BRG]

McLaren-Honda have already improved massively since Melbourne and will continue to advance each race.  Force India won't get any better than they are now.

[Szoelloe]

McLaren-Honda have already improved massively since Melbourne and will continue to advance each race.  Force India won't get any better than they are now.

 

 

I don't know why you are so sure about that.

[kosmos]

I don't know why you are so sure about that.

 

 

Money?.

[MikeV1987]

Force India, best pu or not they cannot keep up with a big team like McLaren in development.

[BRG]

I don't know why you are so sure about that.

Because Force India have never improved during a season?  Why should it be different this year?

[charly0418]

Because Force India have never improved during a season?  Why should it be different this year?

 

new wind tunnel

 

but again, its not a sure thing the B car will be an improvement, just like its not a sure thing McLaren will improve enough

[MikeV1987]

Toyota's wind tunnel

Edited by MikeV1987, 13 April 2015 - 15:45.

[Szoelloe]

Money?.

 

 

It is why I cannot choose between the two options. It is easier to get financing for a feasible design and realise it, than redesign and develop a flawed PU currently.

[Quickshifter]

Kick them when they are down is it? Three races and people are busy writing Mclaren's obituary.  This thread is clearly meant to piss on Mclaren. Yes we are down but i can tell you we will be competing for points regularly from Europe onwards.

[pdac]

McLaren will be taking grid penalties at every race soon.

[charly0418]

This thread is clearly meant to piss on Mclaren. Yes we are down but i can tell you we will be competing for points regularly from Europe onwards.

 

This was created by a Force India fan, and its a fair question. Calm down kid

[RedBaron]

Once McLaren get their engine turned up they'll be fighting Williams at least. The points will be coming thick and fast, maybe wins depending on what that Honda can achieve engine.

[ninetyzero]

Mclaren Honda might be struggling behind Force India at the moment. but they have something FI don't; $$$$$$$$

 

McLaren won't be at the back of the grid all year but Force India will be lucky to be on the grid all year.

Edited by ninetyzero, 13 April 2015 - 17:23.

[Abranet]

As much as I would giggle internally, I can't see McLaren and Honda not getting it right sooner than later. The money will win out in the end but I dont share McLaren's fans views of them being a race winner at any point this season so it may be close if Force India can get a few early good results. 

Edited by Abranet, 13 April 2015 - 17:29.

[charly0418]

Once McLaren get their engine turned up they'll be fighting Williams at least. The points will be coming thick and fast, maybe wins depending on what that Honda can achieve engine.

 

[ninetyzero]

As much as I would giggle internally, I can't see McLaren and Honda not getting it right sooner than later. The money will win out in the end but I dont share McLaren's fans views of them being a race winner at any point this season so it may be close if Force India can get a few early good results. 

 

There's more chance of me sleeping with [insert name of popular, well known attractive person here] then there is of Mclaren winning a race this year, but wouldn't it be a hell of a story if they did?

[Szoelloe]

There's more chance of me sleeping with [insert name of popular, well known attractive person here] then there is of Mclaren winning a race this year, but wouldn't it be a hell of a story if they did?

 

 

I wish you Jeremy Clarkson?

[Ferrari_F1_fan_2001]

McLaren will be taking grid penalties at every race soon.

When you are at the back. Who cares? Let them take every penalty available if it means they can go forwards.

[sopa]

McLaren will be taking grid penalties at every race soon.

 

It doesn't matter much to be honest at this stage.

[sopa]

Actually I think it is a good question. McLaren genuinely faces the possibility of finishing last this year, bar Manor.

 

Now. I do think they should improve, at least to the level where they can get minor points - 9th, 10th, and so.

 

The problem is that there are no weak teams. Force India should improve, they barely had any pre-season testing. And on faster circuits, Montreal, Monza, they should definitely be in the points. FI will not end the season on current 7 points, they will get more here and there. Sauber, Lotus, STR are already now regularly in minor points. So they will all collect more. So McLaren not only has to catch them in performance, but pass as well to get back the current points deficit.

[ninetyzero]

I wish you Jeremy Clarkson?

 

And there's a disturbing insight into Szoelloe's psyche...

[FenderJaguar]

McLaren will beat Force India, seems they already have improved a lot

[emmanuelrubi]

Kick them when they are down is it? Three races and people are busy writing Mclaren's obituary.  This thread is clearly meant to piss on Mclaren. Yes we are down but i can tell you we will be competing for points regularly from Europe onwards.

 

They have been down for 3 years and since nothing guarantees they are gonna be back by this season it could be more, Kicking them again has no real purpose.

 

Damn Kid eat a snickers or something, this was based on the idea that FI has been fighting McLaren for the last 2 or 3 seasons even with a smaller budget, last year both on the same PU if Button failed to score at Abu Dhabi Force India would had beat McLaren, so money could be a factor but sometimes on the same working bases like last year, even with more $$$ McLaren almost lost, its interesting because this could be the year FI finally beats McLaren or than McLaren gets back to its old glories, who knows; but trust me there are faster ways to piss on Macca fanboys than opening a threat to do so.

Edited by emmanuelrubi, 13 April 2015 - 22:40.

[Ikebana]

First, if McLaren would beat Manor. Now it's FI. Do wonder what the poll will be about by the end of the championship. :-p

[thegamer23]

Force India gone wrong with the car this year.
McLaren will outscore them badly in the second part of the season, they have an impressive potential.

[Ev0d3vil]

Its a testing season for McLaren tbh

[charly0418]

Force India gone wrong with the car this year.
McLaren will outscore them badly in the second part of the season, they have an impressive potential.

 

they just have to unleash it, right?!

 

ha

[ViMaMo]

Don't hate so much. McLaren's actions may have annoyed one but to kick them when they are down is taking F1 too seriously and personally.

[sopa]

Force India gone wrong with the car this year.
McLaren will outscore them badly in the second part of the season, they have an impressive potential.

 

The thing is nobody actually KNOWS exactly, how much potential they have. Also just how good Honda MIGHT be. It is guesswork.

 

McLaren may improve easily to a level at which they can get 6th, 7th, 8th place finishes. And with these would finish above. But it could also be they do not have much improvement potential and still finish last overall. We do not know yet. So I'd leave the answer open.

 

Last year I also thought Lotus had lots of potential. They improved a lot by the Spanish Grand Prix (5th on the grid, 8th in the race). In the end nothing came out of it.

 

Also it COULD be Force India's car has a fair amount of potential, they just haven't managed to develop it properly YET with lack of funds. Remember Sauber from 2013. Sauber improved A LOT despite being underfunded.

 

In my view people take too one-sided view on this thread. Yes, McLaren may be much better financed, but it in itself doesn't guarantee anything. I have seen well-funded teams getting package wrong and trailing at low positions all season and no amount of money thrown at development could save their season. Honda 2007 anybody?

Edited by sopa, 14 April 2015 - 08:36.

[sergey1308]

I suppose it's obvious that Force India. McLaren is progressing rather quickly. Besides they have significantly more money than Force India. McLaren already can fight with Force India on track. At the end of the year they apparently will pass to Q2 in qualy or even one car to Q3 from time to time. Force India in the worst case scenario can leave the championship.

[Nonesuch]

McLaren's actions may have annoyed one but to kick them when they are down is taking F1 too seriously and personally.

 

The last time McLaren had a serious chance at a win was almost three years ago.

 

How much longer until people can discuss their future performance in relation to other teams?

[Szoelloe]

And there's a disturbing insight into Szoelloe's psyche...

 

I'm a mess. 

[SealTheDiffuser]

With first half of the season performance and all the engine penalties in second half etc. I think it will be impossible for McLaren to be better in the WCC (edit not WDC )than Force India (they already have 7 points).

Edited by SealTheDiffuser, 14 April 2015 - 14:26.

[Scuferrari]

McLaren will ride circles around Force India by the end of the season. It was extremely funny to watch Button troll Maldonado in the Lotus ( which is a better car than FI) in the corners with the Lotus easily coming back on the straights. And the Lotus had newer tyres. The car itself is as good as the Williams, maybe better...but it's too early to tell so I don't want to speculate.

 

The PU lacks A LOT even compared to Renault. I'm convinced that Honda will make a lot of progress. They'll catch Renault by mid season. They'll never catch Mercedes or Ferrari HP wise, but if they can reach Renault then McLaren will beat Red Bull and Toro Rosso and have only 3 teams in front of them ( 2 teams quite far in front , 1 team not much) because their chassis is already better than Lotus, Red Bull, TR, Sauber.

 

Wait until Barcelona when the engine runs at full power and the software is updated. With only 1 straight ( plus another vey short one) and lots of corners. You'll see both McLarens in Q3.

Edited by Scuferrari, 14 April 2015 - 14:21.

[sopa]

They'll never catch Mercedes or Ferrari HP wise, but if they can reach Renault then McLaren will beat Red Bull and Toro Rosso and have only 3 teams in front of them ( 2 teams quite far in front , 1 team not much) because their chassis is already better than Lotus, Red Bull, TR, Sauber.

 

 

How can you be so sure about that? That McLaren has a top 3 chassis on the grid. I'd say it is pretty hard to evaluate right now. At the moment both Toro Rosso and Red Bull are well in front of McLaren, both with a power unit, which may be better than Honda's, but not that great either.

[charly0418]

How can you be so sure about that? That McLaren has a top 3 chassis on the grid. I'd say it is pretty hard to evaluate right now. At the moment both Toro Rosso and Red Bull are well in front of McLaren, both with a power unit, which may be better than Honda's, but not that great either.

 

I love the Toro Rosso chassis. Wouldnt be surprised if its one of the best on the grid, James Key has done one heck of a job. Sadly most of the readers here are very ignorant and take teams like TR for granted

[Hkruijf]

Very easy this one: Force India will lose.

 

Mclaren I think has the potential to reach Williams-level performance at the end of this year, and be top 3 next year. No contest really.

[ButtonForEver]

Force India, easy, c'mon..

[Force Ten]

The thing is nobody actually KNOWS exactly, how much potential they have. Also just how good Honda MIGHT be. It is guesswork.

 

McLaren may improve easily to a level at which they can get 6th, 7th, 8th place finishes. And with these would finish above. But it could also be they do not have much improvement potential and still finish last overall. We do not know yet. So I'd leave the answer open.

 

Last year I also thought Lotus had lots of potential. They improved a lot by the Spanish Grand Prix (5th on the grid, 8th in the race). In the end nothing came out of it.

 

Also it COULD be Force India's car has a fair amount of potential, they just haven't managed to develop it properly YET with lack of funds. Remember Sauber from 2013. Sauber improved A LOT despite being underfunded.

 

In my view people take too one-sided view on this thread. Yes, McLaren may be much better financed, but it in itself doesn't guarantee anything. I have seen well-funded teams getting package wrong and trailing at low positions all season and no amount of money thrown at development could save their season. Honda 2007 anybody?

Situations are completely different though. McLaren appears to have a clearly defined poor area to improve on - the engine- whilst being one of the best in corners and in braking. Honda 2007 simply sucked with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

No it is very well possible that the Honda 2015 PU is a lost case and it gets them more than a year to dig themselves out of the hole they are in and in that case FI seems to have an upper hand. But if they manage to get their engine working even somewhat as intended I wouldn't bet my money against them in regards to not being able to beat Force India over a season.

[Scuferrari]

How can you be so sure about that? That McLaren has a top 3 chassis on the grid. I'd say it is pretty hard to evaluate right now. At the moment both Toro Rosso and Red Bull are well in front of McLaren, both with a power unit, which may be better than Honda's, but not that great either.

 

They way Button trounced the Lotus in the corner in China on slightly older tyres. Lotus have a similar car to Sauber (not bad) and are reasonably close to RB/Toro Rosso in race conditions. McLaren are currently so slow on the straights - I couldn't stop laughing on sunday. I don't say they have a Ferrari type of chassis ( too early to tell if the car is very good or great) but I saw enough to say that they have at least a good chassis , RB-Williams-Toro Rosso level at least. I assume the difference between Red Bull /Toro Rosso and Williams is down to the engine (0.3 -0.4 sec).

 

For sure we can tell that they clearly have a better chassis than the Merc/Ferrari engined Lotus/Sauber. Next teams are Red Bull, Toro Rosso and Williams. Not unreasonable to think they would be somewhere up there with a Renault type of engine? I use the Renault engine as a target/benchmark for them as a realistic aim for this season. Which means 40-60 HP behind Merc/Ferrari. Instead of the 120 currently. Part of the deficit could be related to the fact they still don't push the systems 100%.

 

I have to agree that James Key and his staff have done a great job with the Toro Rosso. I hope they can somehow keep that level.

 

Everyone who doesn't like McLaren or Alonso seems to have a dig at them. It's cowardly convenient at this point.

We should remember that McLaren is the 2nd greatest team. They'll never have midfield cars for more than a couple of years.

[sopa]

----

 

Everyone who doesn't like McLaren or Alonso seems to have a dig at them. It's cowardly convenient at this point.

We should remember that McLaren is the 2nd greatest team. They'll never have midfield cars for more than a couple of years.

 

The last part doesn't mean anything is set in stone. Once upon a time Lotus was the greatest team of all times. But they dropped off massively. Williams, the third greatest team of F1, only had midfield cars throughout the whole of 2005 to 2013.

 

I'll take the rest of the argument. Even though against Lotus McLaren was surprisingly competitive on the straights as well. It was not like Lotus could easily breeze past on the straight. Was it down to setup or something else?

[Gyno]

The last part doesn't mean anything is set in stone. Once upon a time Lotus was the greatest team of all times. But they dropped off massively. Williams, the third greatest team of F1, only had midfield cars throughout the whole of 2005 to 2013.

 

I'll take the rest of the argument. Even though against Lotus McLaren was surprisingly competitive on the straights as well. It was not like Lotus could easily breeze past on the straight. Was it down to setup or something else?

 

 

Mclaren was most likely running on very low downforce to compensate for the lack of power on the long straights at China.

They lost out alot in the corners which they didn't do in the first 2 races.

Edited by Gyno, 14 April 2015 - 16:35.

[Force Ten]

The last part doesn't mean anything is set in stone. Once upon a time Lotus was the greatest team of all times. But they dropped off massively. Williams, the third greatest team of F1, only had midfield cars throughout the whole of 2005 to 2013.

 

I'll take the rest of the argument. Even though against Lotus McLaren was surprisingly competitive on the straights as well. It was not like Lotus could easily breeze past on the straight. Was it down to setup or something else?

I think it was better exit speed plus DRS. Every time Maldonaldo got the DRS Button was a sitting duck, right up until braking.

[Nathan]

While starting at the back due to engine changes isn't ideal, if the package is good we have seen time and time again the possibility of scoring points is still there.

[Kyo]

I hope so, I just bet with a friend that that McLaren will finish 5th or best in the WCC. Am I crazy?

[SB]

Fair chance of McLaren if they can have the speed to reach Q2 when they back to Europe (ie next race Spain). If not then it means they still have not fixed / tuned-in the Honda engine and it would be too late for them to catch up the other teams in terms of championship points.

[Tsarwash]

McLaren will be scoring points by the end of May, and ought to be ahead on points, (just) of FI by the end of the season.