122 replies to this topic

[noikeee]

Spin-off from the other thread which I think will be a lot more fun.

 

Any horrendous paydriver duos you guys can think of? A quick lookover through Minardi's history brings up 2 candidates duos for me: Tuero/Nakano and Bruni/Baumgartner. However with a little further searching I also found the rather spectacular lineup of Hideki Noda and Jean-Denis Deletraz for Larrousse's final ever Grand Prix in Australia in 1994! Can anyone outdo that?

[Afterburner]

In before DRACONE.

[HeidfeldsBeard]

Rosset and Takagi

[HeidfeldsBeard]

Maldonado and Senna

 

Senna had plenty of incidents of his own in 2012 but people tend to forget about them.

[Graveltrappen]

1998, the back of the grid Minardi and Tyrell in their final throwaway season before BAR renamed them... 4 proper old school pay drivers and I remember plenty of good smashes from them all.

[Atreiu]

Irvine for slowest.

Who were his teammates at Jaguar?

[jonpollak]

In before DRACONE.

Damn.... You got it in1...
I reckon Sato and whoever is next to, in front or behind.
Jp

[henke1972]

I do not like to talk bad about the dead...but Andrea de Cesaris is definitely one of the more crash-prone drivers. It still remain a mystery how he could race over 200 races. 

 

Looking at his statistics is an interesting reading...of his first 25 GP starts, 10 is 'accident', 'spun off' or something related to that topic. 

 

Though, Apparently he was fast; he had a pole in US 1982 - the youngest pole sitter until Rubens came along. But - you guessed it - he spun off after 30 something laps...

[chunder27]

Carlos Checa in MotoGP, crashed 30 times on a Yamaha

 

Randy de Puniet too.

 

In car racing surely Brambilla!

[AlanK]

Satoru Nakajima in the Lotus in the late 80s / early 90`s. Thats it...close the thread haha ;)

[Fisico54]

Spin-off from the other thread which I think will be a lot more fun.

Any horrendous paydriver duos you guys can think of? A quick lookover through Minardi's history brings up 2 candidates duos for me: Tuero/Nakano and Bruni/Baumgartner. However with a little further searching I also found the rather spectacular lineup of Hideki Noda and Jean-Denis Deletraz for Larrousse's final ever Grand Prix in Australia in 1994! Can anyone outdo that?

Bruni was a decent driver and has had a great post f1 enduro career.
Tuero was the Max Verstappen of his time.

[emmanuelrubi]

Any Pair involving Maldonado.

[Nemo1965]

It should be two persons, right?

 

Phillipe Alliot and Jonathan Palmer, RAM-Hart, 1984. A promising design, good funding, and promising tests in the winter. First race of 1984: 8th place for Palmer. And then crash, crash, crash, crash, crash, crash...

[HeidfeldsBeard]

Any Pair involving Maldonado.

 

Including Bottas and Barrichello?

[ensign14]

Back in the days of private entries RAM turned up for their first Grand Prix with Emilio de Villota & Loris Kessel.  To give you some sort of idea of their abilities, each of them had to start his own team to get more drives.  RAM later had the less-than-deadly duos of Andy Sutcliffe & Mikko Kozarowitsky (best result: DNPQ) and Boy Hayje & Michael Bleekemolen.

 

Another really bad line-up was Ligier in 1984.  One driver (de Cesaris) for whom the track was an optional extra, the other (Hesnault) for whom Formula 3 was a bit of a stretch.  Eight years later de Cesaris got another mobile chicane team-mate in the shape of Olivier Grouillard.

 

And, for an entire season, Pacific had that legend-in-his-own-mind Gachot tagged with Paul Belmondo.  Who followed in his thespian father's footsteps by pretending to be something he obviously wasn't.

[Dan333SP]

Bruni was a decent driver and has had a great post f1 enduro career.
Tuero was the Max Verstappen of his time.

 

I was going to post the same thing about Bruni. He's generally regarded as among the best current GTE drivers for Ferrari, and is a match for Fisichella in that type of car. I had to remind myself recently that this was, in fact, the same Bruni that trundled around at the back of the grid in a Minardi over a decade ago.

Edited by Dan333SP, 20 April 2015 - 14:28.

[ezequiel]

Spin-off from the other thread which I think will be a lot more fun.

Tuero/Nakano and Bruni/Baumgartner.

 

These were FAR from horrendous

[Myrvold]

I also found the rather spectacular lineup of Hideki Noda and Jean-Denis Deletraz for Larrousse's final ever Grand Prix in Australia in 1994! Can anyone outdo that?

 

In modern times, I think that is pretty hard to find, in any particular series really.
 

Though, Dracone - Moran jr is up there! (does that count as Moran Jr never got to race?)

[SirVanhan]

Takagi (especially), Tuero and Nakano weren't that bad actually.

[HeidfeldsBeard]

Tuero showed some promise, not saying he would have been a world beater but I think he could have had an F1 career spanning a few seasons. He probably came in a year or two too young.

 

Had a nasty accident in the last race of the 1998 season where iirc he was flipped over at the final chicane by Takagi and injured his neck. He then disappeared into Argentine touring cars.

[SirVanhan]

Tuero showed some promise, not saying he would have been a world beater but I think he could have had an F1 career spanning a few seasons. He probably came in a year or two too young.

 

Had a nasty accident in the last race of the 1998 season where iirc he was flipped over at the final chicane by Takagi and injured his neck. He then disappeared into Argentine touring cars.

I remember reading about his retirement on the Teletext! Ah, the days before the internet! The news said something like that his dream was to reach Formula 1 and now that he had accomplished it, he was satisfied, he didn't need to continue   I never knew the real reason until just now.

[ezequiel]

Tuero had everything arranged to continue with Minardi in 1999 but he decided to quit because he wasn't enjoying racing in F1, missed his family and friends, etc. His is a very particular case, even for a pay driver: back in the day, Giancarlo Minardi himself traveled a few times to Argentina to negotiate personally with potential sponsors for Tuero. He was a truly junior driver for Minardi. These days it would be really weird for a team manager, specially one from a small team, to give that attention to a driver, they will more likely sell the seat to the highest bidder.

 

EDIT: Oh, and Takagi was pretty fast, don't get why people keep mentioning him.

Edited by ezequiel, 20 April 2015 - 15:05.

[Spillage]

Maldonado and Senna

 

Senna had plenty of incidents of his own in 2012 but people tend to forget about them.

Pastor Maldonado won a Grand Prix in 2012, but people tend to forget about that as well.

 

How about Toulo de Graffenried and Ottorino Volonterio in 1954? The former's record wasn't too bad, but Volonterio was notoriously crap. I remember reading Stirling Moss saying that if you went hard round the Nurburgring you could get round twice before he'd done a lap!

Edited by Spillage, 20 April 2015 - 15:18.

[hollowstar]

Pastor Maldonado won a Grand Prix in 2012, but people tend to forget about that as well.

The thing with Pastor is even his GP win was an accident!

[HeidfeldsBeard]

Pastor Maldonado won a Grand Prix in 2012, but people tend to forget about that as well.

 

How about Toulo de Graffenried and Ottorino Volonterio in 1954? The former's record wasn't too bad, but Volonterio was notoriously crap. I remember reading Stirling Moss saying that if you went hard round the Nurburgring you could get round twice before he'd done a lap!

 

You'll find that I'm actually one of the few people who'll defend Pastor on this forum, but in 2012 in particular he and Senna were a very crash happy pairing - which is one of the OP's conditions.

[Nemo1965]

Pastor Maldonado won a Grand Prix in 2012, but people tend to forget about that as well.

 

Yes, Pastor won a Grand Prix.... but so did Vittorio Brambilla. Both drivers have left their marks more in a literal than in a figurative sense, I dare say...

[HoldenRT]

Hard to believe Pastor has won a race, because he has a cloud of fail that follows him around the track wherever he goes, and he always finds new ways to surprise you in terms of clumsiness or mistakes.  Usually an open track is easy and it's battling with other cars that are hard, they dodge and weave but Pastor finds pitlanes and an open track as difficult as overtaking someone.  The walls and curbs come out of nowhere, it's like they move around and play games with him.. but only him.  For everyone else, the walls and pitlane is stationary and predictable.

Edited by HoldenRT, 20 April 2015 - 15:59.

[Andrew Hope]

I wouldn't care if I crashed into the pit lane a hundred times if for just one day I was completely untouchable and crashed into the top step of the podium ahead of Fernando Alonso and 200,000 of his angriest fans.

[Spillage]

Yes, Pastor won a Grand Prix.... but so did Vittorio Brambilla. Both drivers have left their marks more in a literal than in a figurative sense, I dare say...

True, but I don't think either really belongs in a thread like this one. Crash-happy as they were, I'd take Maldonado-Senna over, say, Doornbos-Albers. Not to say Doornbos-Albers is the worst driver line-up ever, you understand, but at least Maldonado was quick.

[Nigol]

I wouldn't care if I crashed into the pit lane a hundred times if for just one day I was completely untouchable and crashed into the top step of the podium ahead of Fernando Alonso and 200,000 of his angriest fans.

 

To add more spice, the lost points would have been enough to make him WDC.

Edited by Nigol, 20 April 2015 - 16:12.

[Kristian]

As someone said, Takagi and Rosset 'The Rocket' at Tyrrell in 1998 were quite special. 

 

But their successors, Villeneuve and Zonta, didn't fare much better and were pretty crash happy in 1999... 

[FerrariV12]

In my own lifetime (well, time watching the sport) Noda/Deletraz is hard to beat. Lavaggi and Inoue always had half-decent teammates (Morbidelli, Brabham, Montermini, Papis, Lamy)

 

A lot of the other names thrown around from that period at least had some sort of track record - even Rosset was an F3000 race winner and series runner-up - admittedly in the best team in the last year of the open formula but he still outscored the likes of McNish and Brack.

 

Even looking up some of the stragglers from the late 80s or early 90s pre-qualifying era either had a decent teammate (usually Roberto Moreno, man he really drove some sh*tboxes either side of the Benetton) or had a decent track record outside of F1, e.g. Weidler winning Le Mans or others who showed OK in lower formulas.

Edited by FerrariV12, 20 April 2015 - 16:36.

[Graveltrappen]

1998 was my first full season of watching the F1 and I remember the old minardi and Tyrell pay driver smashes with great nostalgia. F1 in general seemed more 'crashey' back then in general however...







Not a crash a such, but quite funny:



Takagi arrives late to the scene and plows on through:






Minardi and Tyrell must have spent a fortune repairing cars that season...

[Graveltrappen]

Rosset and Sospiri

[Nemo1965]

True, but I don't think either really belongs in a thread like this one. Crash-happy as they were, I'd take Maldonado-Senna over, say, Doornbos-Albers. Not to say Doornbos-Albers is the worst driver line-up ever, you understand, but at least Maldonado was quick.

 

You know, there is no way of telling. Maldonado and Senna at least had a midfield car capable of scoring points, and I tend to agree with Claire Williams that both drivers in 2012 did not get the maximum out of the car. Doornbos and Albers paired up in a Minardi, which was about five seconds slower than the pole-sitter and three seconds slower than the end of the midfield. Manor-category, one could say.

 

Look at Ericcson at Sauber at the moment. Not the next Senna by a longshot, but he is not embarrassing himself hugely against the highly rated Felipe Nasr, is he? And I think both Albers and Doornbos can't be rated lower than Ericcson. Albers got his F1 seat with sponsorship, yes, but he was a German F3 champion and very fast in DTM. Doornbos did very well in F3000 (the old GP2).

 

So... perhaps you are right. But like I said...

[scheivlak]

Takagi arrives late to the scene and plows on through:




 

That was Rosset.

[Boxerevo]

Maldonado and Grosjean, they could be the greatest duo ever but Grosjean is driving too well for this glory.

[Imateria]

 

To be fair to Tuero I'd blame that one on Viellneuve.

[GoldenColt]

Maldonado and Grosjean, they could be the greatest duo ever but Grosjean is driving too well for this glory.

 

These two really should've been teammates in 2012...

[sopa]

Maldonado and Senna

 

Senna had plenty of incidents of his own in 2012 but people tend to forget about them.

 

Perhaps a contender for a "bad line-up in good cars".

[sopa]

True, but I don't think either really belongs in a thread like this one. Crash-happy as they were, I'd take Maldonado-Senna over, say, Doornbos-Albers. Not to say Doornbos-Albers is the worst driver line-up ever, you understand, but at least Maldonado was quick.

 

Was Doornbos slow? He outqualified Coulthard twice in the last three GP weekends in late 2006, when he replaced Klien. OK, the sample size is small, but still...

[BRG]

Rosset and Sospiri

Totally unfair to Vincenzo Sospiri, whose F1 career was a DNQ in the hopeless Lola.  But he was F3000 champion and a multiple champion in sports cars and never a crasher.

 

Rosset though.....well, let's say out of his depth in F1.

Edited by BRG, 20 April 2015 - 18:01.

[Fisico54]

Are people just coming up with names based on Wikipedia?
Sospiri - reigning dominant f3000 champion
Takagi - at the time rated as a future star
Doornbos - fast in every series he entered
Tuero - verstappen of his time
Rosset - f3000 race winner and series runner up
Albers - german f3 champ, sports cars star
Bruni - sports cars champion

[Afterburner]

Are people just coming up with names based on Wikipedia?
Sospiri - reigning dominant f3000 champion
Takagi - at the time rated as a future star
Doornbos - fast in every series he entered
Tuero - verstappen of his time
Rosset - f3000 race winner and series runner up
Albers - german f3 champ, sports cars star
Bruni - sports cars champion

Most of those guys just happened to be in backmarker cars, I'll give you that, but for his failed Monaco spin-turn alone, Rosset earns his place in the thread.

[ninetyzero]

Satoru Nakajima in the Lotus in the late 80s / early 90`s. Thats it...close the thread haha ;)

 

Runs in the family...

[Bleu]

While not in F1, topic needs to mention of last year's duo of Sergio Canamasas and Johnny Cecotto Jr. in GP2. Crash-happiest (and dangerous to others) section.

Edited by Bleu, 20 April 2015 - 19:31.

[ensign14]

Totally unfair to Vincenzo Sospiri, whose F1 career was a DNQ in the hopeless Lola.  But he was F3000 champion and a multiple champion in sports cars and never a crasher.

 

Rosset though.....well, let's say out of his depth in F1.

 

Hang on.  Sospiri only won the F3k title by staying in it for so long that anyone who was any good had moved up and out.  1995 was his fourth complete year in the category and he had won precisely zero races in the three years before that.

 

And Sospiri was in such a dominant team that his team-mate, in his rookie season in F3k, won two races - only one fewer than Sospiri.

 

Who was that team-mate?  Ah yes.  Ricardo Rosset.

[micktosin]

Nakajima the bench mark

Edited by micktosin, 20 April 2015 - 19:52.

[Lotus53B]

Totally unfair to Vincenzo Sospiri, whose F1 career was a DNQ in the hopeless Lola.  But he was F3000 champion and a multiple champion in sports cars and never a crasher.

 

Rosset though.....well, let's say out of his depth in F1.

Murray Walker "There's some debate as to whether he (Rosset) should be in Formula 1"

Martin Brundle "That's a pretty short debate Murray"

[MikeV1987]

Maldonado and Senna in recent times. Both were horrible in that Williams.

 

Pastor may have won, but come on...he could have got so much more. Over half his career points in f1 are from that win alone. 

Edited by MikeV1987, 20 April 2015 - 20:03.