240 replies to this topic

[Atreiu]

[CountDooku]

/thread.

Welcome to the forums, MOC.

Come for the F1, stay for the Indycar.

What's Indycar?

[Quickshifter]

You know we on motorsport forums are Formula one enthusiasts who may not need the glitz/glamor but F1 is not just a sport but a business where they have to do something to improve the show. Titanium skid plates were not even done for show instead they were introduced because of durability/weight reasons as has been mentioned above. There are many things about sport we do not find right but sparks is too trivial an issue to be annoyed about. What we need to remember is that majority of the tv audience is not dominated by purists, also to attract new people to watch the sport it  needs a hand at times to present itself  better. Many people may find DRS to be artificial but one cannot deny that DRS has definitely introduced a nice element and a talking point in the race.

Edited by Quickshifter, 21 April 2015 - 22:08.

[FerrariV12]

Don't think there was any was it? they just had a lower ride height

 

Nope they had titanium skid blocks to stop the actual floor getting ruined.

 

I only know this because Murray Walker and James Hunt told me during the commentary of the 1985 British GP I was watching today

[chrisPB15]

Everything about Formula One is artificial. They race on billiard-smooth tracks constructed just for that purpose. The cars are bespoke, every part is constructed just for the car. There are grandstands for the fans to sit there and watch. The fuel and lubricants are specially made, you can not buy them. The area behind the airbox is of a minimum size just to make sure sponsors have advertising space. The entire "show" (and it is just that, a show) is an exercise in showmanship, advertising, and making things exciting for the fans.

 

Heck, just look at the tires, huge logos and stuff painted on the sides. People have reason to complain about the quality of the tires, but I have never seen anyone moan about how they look totally unlike anything you can buy from your friendly tire store.

 

 

I remember when you could buy tyres with white writing and logo on the sides. General Grabbers and XP 2000s for a couple

[chrisPB15]

There are a lot of stupid things that people complain about in the world of F1. This, for me, takes the cake. Bravo to all of you for your valuable contributions! Particularly those of you who continue to ignore the posts explaining that the titanium was mandated for a legitimate reason (preventing excessive wear which could allow teams to skirt the minimum rideheight rules).

 

If you need to close a loophole in the rulebook, and in so doing you can also bring back an element of the spectacle that some fans enjoyed for no real cost, then why not? I hope this thread turns into at least 10 pages of whining gold, it could reach the forum's hall of fame for absurdity.

 

Nothing much has changed though has it. The keel of the floor is still scraping on the ground at the point of the metal blocks. The wear limit has always been 1mm. The teams will monitor this and push it as close to the limit as they can, and employ tricks if they can find them.

The introduction of the plank has cost millions in clever areo work. They would have been better having flat floors with FIA limit monitored active suspension to save money.

Edited by chrisPB15, 22 April 2015 - 09:14.

[Lee Nicolle]

Make em magnesium, lighter again. I bet then they would not be continually scraping in case they catch fire!

[Lee Nicolle]

I remember when you could buy tyres with white writing and logo on the sides. General Grabbers and XP 2000s for a couple

Fire Rock Parnelli Jones, Goodrich TA. 

You just need 4wd tyres to continue the white letter deal.

[Sanzx81]

Sparks were awesome in the late 80's/early 90's but no, these are fake and not the same.

[midgrid]

Sparks were awesome in the late 80's/early 90's but no, these are fake and not the same.

Why?  They're being produced in exactly the same way.

[MrEastDokdo]

Fans don't care about sparks!!

 

They want the cars and drivers racing and pushing right to the edge.

[Morgan00]

Back in the 80's the sparks look great... But at Bahrain it looked a bit ridiculous and actually when Vettel and Rosberg came up behind Hamilton, sparks flying out the back like a firework convention... It looked potentially dangerous.

Sparks that happen incidentally are probably a good thing, but putting plates under the car to induce sparking is a bit too artificial and 'playstation' for my liking...

 

This

[klyster]

They went nicely with the fireworks at the end.

 

I wonder what the pyrotechnic bill was? They seemed to go on forever!

[Nytelotus]

They went nicely with the fireworks at the end.

 

I wonder what the pyrotechnic bill was? They seemed to go on forever!

 

Peanuts compared to the electricity bill of the weekend. So much for 'green'.....

[Dan333SP]

This... is wrong because the sparks in the 80s were there for basically the same reason they are today. You can't like one and decry the other unless you're proudly hypocritical.

 

FIFY.

[Dan333SP]

Nothing much has changed though has it. The keel of the floor is still scraping on the ground at the point of the metal blocks. The wear limit has always been 1mm. The teams will monitor this and push it as close to the limit as they can, and employ tricks if they can find them.

The introduction of the plank has cost millions in clever areo work. They would have been better having flat floors with FIA limit monitored active suspension to save money.

 

 

Right, the plank was the mistake and if we went back to flat floors I think we'd all be much happier. Given that we're stuck with the plank, switching from "heavier metals" to titanium for the blocks protecting the plank from excessive wear still serves a legitimate purpose-

 

"Secondly, the titanium wears some 2-2.5 times more quickly than the metal currently used. Thus cars will have to be run a little bit higher to manage wear and teams won’t be able to drag them on the ground quite as much as they have in the past. "

 

Basically, switching to titanium forces teams to run the cars a tiny bit higher, so there is something to it besides "oooh pretty sparks!!!"

 

I'm now convinced that if F1 switched back to H-pattern gearboxes and mandated 3L V12s for next year, the people on this forum would still cry because the clutch pedals were stiffer back in the day and the new exhausts are artifically routed to make them sound shriekier or something ridiculous like that.

 

Anyone remember the '00-'01 Mercedes engine? They said the unique exhaust config was designed to enhance airflow around the rear of the car. I'm now sure they just did it for the auditory spectacle. I no longer consider the wins of Hakkinen and Coulthard in either of those seasons to be worthy of praise.

Edited by Dan333SP, 22 April 2015 - 12:27.

[ardbeg]

Back in the 80's the sparks look great... But at Bahrain it looked a bit ridiculous and actually when Vettel and Rosberg came up behind Hamilton, sparks flying out the back like a firework convention... It looked potentially dangerous.

It was potentially dangerous. Speed is potentially dangerous and that is what tickles us with it. Why would we otherwise watch it? They are, after all, not going anywhere, they just drive like madmen for one and a half hour just to end up exactly where they started. Anything that enhances the sense of speed for the spectators and the TV audience must be a good thing and the sparks does just that. 

[thiscocks]

I was more concerned with the UFO constantly in shot

[Stephane]

The joy of "smooth" image stabilisation on old pictures.

[PAGATRON]

Nope they had titanium skid blocks to stop the actual floor getting ruined.

 

I only know this because Murray Walker and James Hunt told me during the commentary of the 1985 British GP I was watching today

Thanks for setting me straight Ferrari.

 

Blimey that video clip, that mac was setting sparks even at slowish speeds.

[Alexis*27]

How are they 'artificial'? The bottom of the cars have to made out of something and they'll always scrape along the ground.

 

So the choice is either a wooden Jabroc composite, or a metallic material.

 

The first spews out dull brown material, the latter sparks.

 

I don't know why it took 11 years for them to get rid of the wood.

[autosportfan]

All fine... And as M Brundle said the Sparks are similar to the ones when he raced.

[ConsiderAndGo]

The sparks are not artificial....

[PAGATRON]

Are the sparks artificial, or is everything artificial?

[V8 Fireworks]

about how they look totally unlike anything you can buy from your friendly tire store.

 

 

You can buy Pirelli slicks from your local Pirelli motorsport dealer and paint them yourself if you want 

[V8 Fireworks]

If you think about it, every single thing about every form of motor sport is artificial...

 

If they returned to cross-country races without any vehicle regulations then, only then, it may not be.

[wingwalker]

As it been said, the notion that current sparks are 'artificial' and 80's and 90's were 'true' is absolutely ridiculous. They look cool, what's not to like?

[Blutto]

For the full multimedia racing experience, we need both sight and sound. I'll tick the box for the sight.

 

Now for the sound....

[scheivlak]

How are they 'artificial'? The bottom of the cars have to made out of something and they'll always scrape along the ground.

 

So the choice is either a wooden Jabroc composite, or a metallic material.

 

The first spews out dull brown material, the latter sparks.

 

I don't know why it took 11 years for them to get rid of the wood.

Read the 2015 technical regulations, article 3.13 - it's clearly not what you think 

Edited by scheivlak, 22 April 2015 - 21:57.

[warp]

Read the 2015 technical regulations, article 3.13 - it's clearly not what you think 

 

I am reading them, and I'm a bit confused.

 

The plank's upper end should sit at reference plane and its thickness should be 10mm.

Now, skid blocks (mandated to be Ti alloy as opposed to 2014) should be at least 15mm and its upper surface no more than 3mm below reference plane.

 

Does that mean that the skid blocks are actually 8mm below the plank lower surface and hence, those 8mm are sacrificial material (actually 9mm as the plank should be 10mm +/-1mm to be deemed legal)?

 

Then, 2014 regs did not specified material, thickness or measure below the reference plane for the skid blocks... which means teams could run a harder wearing material of less thickness and run closer to the ground.

Indeed, the 2015 have been written to be more specific and more stringent than 2014 when it comes to the skid blocks and fasteners, so the skid blocks do not detach.

 

Yeah, it may produce flashy sparks, but the technical reasoning is there: Run higher ride heights and prevent detachment of heavy pieces of metal from the plank.

[Briz]

90s sparks and now... They look the same, it's a very similar amount of sparks, they are both sparks from titanium skid blocks, they are both a product of regulations one way or another put on a crazy (you could say artificial) racing machine that is what it is because of regulations. How can you like 90s sparks but not current ones, imho you have to choose if you like that kind of spark amount or not and that's it, calling one great and the other fake is some bizarre logic.

[baddog]

You mostly saw them because it was a night race. That was the only change from the first three races.

 

Precisely this. Thank god I'm not the only one who can figure this **** out.

[Stephane]

I think in Malaysia they raised the car a bit because of the rain.

[Jvr]

Sainz thinks sparks are a bit of a distraction when they bounce off from driver's visor.

 

http://www.grandprix...-hitting-visor/

[midgrid]

[Jvr]

That looks almost like a fighter jet flare decoy been released...

 

Should there be a button at the steering wheel to launch sparks?

[Lotus53B]

Sainz thinks sparks are a bit of a distraction when they bounce off from driver's visor.

 

http://www.grandprix...-hitting-visor/

The Mansell quote somewhere above shows that they can be used as a tactic - and the (f'ing spectacular) image belows shows how big sparks used to be - I don't think that the modern cars come close to that level.

 

I don't think that they're artificial - the cars will bottom occasionally, and using a (relatively) soft metal like titanium as opposed to a hard but brittle metal like tungsten (as used to be used) is safer.

[Taxi]

 

 

One of my favourit photos ever. 

[K20a]

One of my favourit photos ever.

Absolutely stunning!

[K20a]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, where's my box of Kleenex at...

[K20a]

So where'd the sparks go lol