Force India: Let the teams choose their own Pirelli compounds in secret
#1
Posted 25 April 2015 - 09:54
This is a superb idea. Would give a good variety in performance without having to have a tyre war...
#3
Posted 25 April 2015 - 09:57
In theory that is not a bad idea at all.
#4
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:08
#5
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:09
It would cost too much. At the moment, Pirelli know precisely how many of which spec of tyres to make. If this went through, they'd have to bring maximum numbers of each dry weather spec to each grand prix, which would significantly increase the amount per tyre each team had to spend.
Not if they chose them 4 weeks in advance, as per the article....
#6
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:10
#7
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:12
I remember this being suggested before and it would make sense. Just have the teams choose which two compounds they want Pirelli to bring for them to each Grand Prix. Same amount of work for Pirelli, but the teams get their preferred tyre.
#8
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:16
That would also prevent a team to build a car that suited ONLY the medium and soft compounds, and put a strategic element to it as well.
#9
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:18
I'd be ok with this if teams could test beforehand, but it's too much of a guessing game at the moment. Teams go through Friday practice and *still* aren't always sure of the best tire to use, yet you want them to make their choices 4 weeks ahead of time?
I kind of prefer everyone to be on a level foot here. It'd be one thing if it was like MotoGP and teams could make their choice after practice, but we don't have that for cost-saving reasons, so I'm not really in favour of this alternative. Too much of a wild card factor.
#10
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:19
Good idea yes, not going to happen. The FIA is too scared to lose control and will go on about safety concerns
#11
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:22
Novelty of the idea will wear off quickly.
However, coming to think of it, it would give a huge advantage to cars who are easy on the tires; they could race the softer compounds for the whole season.
#12
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:24
And then when a team rocks up to a GP having made the wrong tire choice, they are irreconcilably lost for the whole weekend. And of course, teams that choose right gain throughout the whole weekend.
I'd be ok with this if teams could test beforehand, but it's too much of a guessing game at the moment. Teams go through Friday practice and *still* aren't always sure of the best tire to use, yet you want them to make their choices 4 weeks ahead of time?
I kind of prefer everyone to be on a level foot here. It'd be one thing if it was like MotoGP and teams could make their choice after practice, but we don't have that for cost-saving reasons, so I'm not really in favour of this alternative. Too much of a wild card factor.
It would be no different to how it is now, except now the teams blame Pirelli but in this scenario they'd have to shoulder the responsibility for the choice themselves.
Nice idea, but after two seasons all teams would more or less bring the same tires and strategies will converge.
Novelty of the idea will wear off quickly.
However, coming to think of it, it would give a huge advantage to cars who are easy on the tires; they could race the softer compounds for the whole season.
Good on them for designing a better car then.
#13
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:25
Agreed. It's too much of a lottery picking tyres weeks in advance of the GP, without knowing how exactly the tyre compounds will work on each circuit.And then when a team rocks up to a GP having made the wrong tire choice, they are irreconcilably lost for the whole weekend. And of course, teams that choose right gain throughout the whole weekend.
I'd be ok with this if teams could test beforehand, but it's too much of a guessing game at the moment. Teams go through Friday practice and *still* aren't always sure of the best tire to use, yet you want them to make their choices 4 weeks ahead of time?
I kind of prefer everyone to be on a level foot here. It'd be one thing if it was like MotoGP and teams could make their choice after practice, but we don't have that for cost-saving reasons, so I'm not really in favour of this alternative. Too much of a wild card factor.
If you're someone who complains about artificial ways to change the racing, this is about as artificial as it comes.
Edited by Fastcake, 25 April 2015 - 10:26.
#14
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:27
Right now, everybody is in the same boat, so it is not the same at all.It would be no different to how it is now, except now the teams blame Pirelli but in this scenario they'd have to shoulder the responsibility for the choice themselves.
#15
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:33
i don't like that too much. a better idea would be to reverse the starting grid.
#16
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:44
i don't like that too much. a better idea would be to reverse the starting grid.
If by much better idea you mean just as bad, then yes.
#17
Posted 25 April 2015 - 10:55
And then when a team rocks up to a GP having made the wrong tire choice, they are irreconcilably lost for the whole weekend. And of course, teams that choose right gain throughout the whole weekend.I'd be ok with this if teams could test beforehand, but it's too much of a guessing game at the moment. Teams go through Friday practice and *still* aren't always sure of the best tire to use, yet you want them to make their choices 4 weeks ahead of time?I kind of prefer everyone to be on a level foot here. It'd be one thing if it was like MotoGP and teams could make their choice after practice, but we don't have that for cost-saving reasons, so I'm not really in favour of this alternative. Too much of a wild card factor.
But I guess the argument is it's better the teams could make an educated guess than be forced to live with what Pirelli decides.
I guess the issue now is that, while everybody is in the same boat, some teams do better when it's tricky to make the tyres last while others do better when deg is lower but it's hard to bring them in. I'm personally not sure how much this idea would help, though. If your car is good at making tyres last when deg is high, that's your comparative advantage, but if the others can pick a more durable tyre, I guess the theory is they may do so and this will promote diverse strategies, with some cars choosing higher performance and paying with higher deg, and others choosing more consistent tyres. My initial reaction is that I agree with you, Sean, I think in the vast majority of cases, one tyre will be clearly better and anyone not on it will be shafted.
#18
Posted 25 April 2015 - 11:00
even better idea would be the possibility to order tyres from Pirelli OR Bridgestone OR Kumho or whoever. or slicks from Bridgestone and intermediates from Kumho and full wets from Pirelli (or whoever). and then get rid of those mandatory tyre changes.
#19
Posted 25 April 2015 - 11:03
If by much better idea you mean just as bad, then yes.
why? since they have the DRS i don't think the end results would not change that much but we would see more overtaking for the top positions.
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#20
Posted 25 April 2015 - 11:33
And then when a team rocks up to a GP having made the wrong tire choice, they are irreconcilably lost for the whole weekend. And of course, teams that choose right gain throughout the whole weekend.
I'd be ok with this if teams could test beforehand, but it's too much of a guessing game at the moment. Teams go through Friday practice and *still* aren't always sure of the best tire to use, yet you want them to make their choices 4 weeks ahead of time?
I kind of prefer everyone to be on a level foot here. It'd be one thing if it was like MotoGP and teams could make their choice after practice, but we don't have that for cost-saving reasons, so I'm not really in favour of this alternative. Too much of a wild card factor.
Maybe it would be better if they weren't required to race both compounds, but still had to nominate 2. They could keep an aggressive choice and a safe choice. I don't think Force India made it clear if the current 2 compound rules would stay if teams nominated themselves.
#21
Posted 25 April 2015 - 11:37
The only extra cost is paint job on sidewalls. This is great idea. It would let teams run different strategies and make races much more interesting.
#22
Posted 25 April 2015 - 11:44
Four weeks in advance? Sounds like nothing but a "gamble" to "spice up the show" and get the occasional "suprise winner" – and maybe even a podium finish for Force India.
I think they should keep the current tyre allocation but let every car race on whichever sets of tyres they like. Scrap the mandatory stuff.
#23
Posted 25 April 2015 - 11:47
The only extra cost is paint job on sidewalls. This is great idea. It would let teams run different strategies and make races much more interesting.
I think the sidewalls would be the same, so the tyres choices would only be a secret until Friday practice. Apparently they need something to talk about on Thursdays.
#24
Posted 25 April 2015 - 12:20
#25
Posted 25 April 2015 - 12:37
Sounds like fun - but it will ultimately lead to ballache.
Tyres are the biggest performance differentiatior out there.
You can be 150bhp down - but if you've got a good set of boots, you're well in the game.
The Bridgestones on the early 2000's Ferrari were off the scale.
#26
Posted 25 April 2015 - 12:52
Maybe it would be better if they weren't required to race both compounds
Yes, to skip that moronic rule should be the first thing to do!
#27
Posted 25 April 2015 - 13:28
So just launch a spec for each race, projected to that track that holds up for less than half of the distance.
This way we get more comptetition, less tyre management, two stops, no artificial decisions come mid-season changing the compounds to benefit some team and Pirelli or any other provider gets a great PR opportunity to show how they can make a tire for any kind of a track!
#28
Posted 25 April 2015 - 14:36
This is something I have been saying for years.
The teams have enough data to know what tires to bring each track, they also know their own car and which tire suits it the best.
Just have a few extra days of testing before season starts for tire testing.
#29
Posted 25 April 2015 - 15:48
People say it will disadvantage teams that get it wrong, but over the season this will probalby even out. It will be like the old days of the tyre war where in some races the Michelins were the tyres to have, and in others the Bridgestones.
A midfield team could gamble massively on softer tyres, and prove to be vindicated with a surprise result. Some teams might stick conservative, but lose out. It would be quite interesting.
#30
Posted 25 April 2015 - 17:06
let them mix or match
left front wears out faster run a hard compound on that corner
rears wear faster use softer front and hard rears
why restrict choices to only all must be one type at a time ?
why let the tyre makers only two to pick from ?
if there are only 4 types why require starting on Q used tyres ?
as heavy cars need harder tyres then the softer Q tyres to do a first stint ?
#31
Posted 25 April 2015 - 17:18
i don't like that too much. a better idea would be to reverse the starting grid.
This is Formula 1 not touring cars.
#32
Posted 25 April 2015 - 17:22
This is Formula 1 not touring cars....
it could work in Formula 1 as well...
#33
Posted 25 April 2015 - 17:32
Agreed. It's too much of a lottery picking tyres weeks in advance of the GP, without knowing how exactly the tyre compounds will work on each circuit.
If you're someone who complains about artificial ways to change the racing, this is about as artificial as it comes.
how is this more artificial than forcing a car to run on tires that are not the best suited for it (which happens at least one stint in every gp for every car) ? Lets have this plus removal of this stupid rule of running the two tires during the races. With 4 types available, even a team picking up the 2 tires at random would be right 50% of the time. And You'd expect teams with budgets in the hundreds of millions of dollar to be able to do much better than that...
#34
Posted 25 April 2015 - 17:42
Supersofts in Barcelona, Suzuka and Spa.
Would they even last one lap? lol
#35
Posted 25 April 2015 - 17:42
Not that long ago teams were able to choose the harder or softer tyre of a manufacturer of their own choosing after Friday practise and weren't forced to run both during the race by some busybody at the FIA. How disappointing that this tyre-gamble, because that's mostly what it would be, is now seen by some as a positive change.
This is a superb idea. Would give a good variety in performance without having to have a tyre war...
The tyre war was never about variety, but competition.
Variety is the ridiculous 2012 Pirelli that allowed even Williams to win a race.
Edited by Nonesuch, 25 April 2015 - 17:43.
#36
Posted 25 April 2015 - 18:45
I'd like it only if the tyres were then unmarked, so that nobody knew what anyone else was doing. Then we could bicker about something else for ages on here.
#37
Posted 25 April 2015 - 18:55
I think it's a potentially good idea. But every team will pick something like soft and mediums every race it can't go wrong (sort of)... can still be discussed and further refined though, the idea is there.
Like my double points wildcard idea (from speedway) to boost f1.
#38
Posted 25 April 2015 - 19:16
Look at the flak Pirelli faced last year. Just imagine if the teams get overly ambitious, went too aggressive with their choice and end up with a catastrophic failure who is going to take the blame?
Giving complete freedom to teams in choosing the type of tyre might sound a juicy idea from outside but there are a lot of variables. Teams would decide tyres based on their car ignoring the demands of the circuit and may even take chances with safety. The delamination issues put a serious dent in to Pirelli's reputation and they will not be in favor of an idea where teams take undue risks to get results.
Edited by Quickshifter, 25 April 2015 - 19:18.
#39
Posted 25 April 2015 - 19:27
If the teams pick well, it potentially should make the field more competitive. Cars that are quick but eat all their tyres can pick harder compounds and benefit -- and vice versa.
Maybe even do this per-driver for even more flexibility.
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#40
Posted 25 April 2015 - 19:54
It'd be too random. Weather can play such a huge part, and forecasts are definitely not accurate enough to go 4 weeks ahead.
Maybe some of that undeserved money that Ferrari and Red Bull receive from FOM can be given to Pirelli instead for them to bring more tires to each race weekend so the teams can test and see what tires work on their car for the race.
#41
Posted 25 April 2015 - 20:09
how is this more artificial than forcing a car to run on tires that are not the best suited for it (which happens at least one stint in every gp for every car) ? Lets have this plus removal of this stupid rule of running the two tires during the races. With 4 types available, even a team picking up the 2 tires at random would be right 50% of the time. And You'd expect teams with budgets in the hundreds of millions of dollar to be able to do much better than that...
Because everyone currently has to run on the same 'wrong' tyres, so it's your own fault if the car can't handle them as well. If people were choosing, then we'd end up with some teams arriving with tyres that demand two or three more pitstops than the ideal option, or ones that are much slower than other compounds. Tyres are such a performance differentiator that there is nothing you can do if you have the wrong choice.
#42
Posted 25 April 2015 - 20:20
Weather can play such a huge part, and forecasts are definitely not accurate enough to go 4 weeks ahead.
Well the same thing happens now.
#43
Posted 25 April 2015 - 20:27
#44
Posted 25 April 2015 - 20:34
Well the same thing happens now.
Everyone is on the same tire now though. Imagine Ferrari choosing soft for Malaysia. With the temperatures we had they'd be pitting within 4-5 laps.
#45
Posted 25 April 2015 - 20:42
Everyone is on the same tire now though. Imagine Ferrari choosing soft for Malaysia. With the temperatures we had they'd be pitting within 4-5 laps.
Why would Ferrari choose such an unsuitable tyre compound for a race? Well if they did make such a bad choice they'd deserve the terrible result that came with it.
Same for any other team of course.
#46
Posted 25 April 2015 - 21:10
But now everyone is always on the wrong tyres (at some point) and car design is increasingly focused on tyre temperature management.Tyres are such a performance ifferentiator that there is nothing you can do if you have the wrong choice.
That's arse about tit. The 'best' cars in the world built to make love to cheese tyres?
Even if that is the 'idea' with the current format, it's a bent lottery if they can just change construction, compound or weekend choice at will.
If there was only one compound it would make more sense. It would also make more sense if the existing range of compounds were absolutely fixed in composition and the two options for each race were announced a year in advance, so if tyre management is the key, you can actually design a car around the tyres that will arrive at the actual races. I could go on but I'm sure you've got my point.
Edited by oetzi, 25 April 2015 - 21:12.
#47
Posted 26 April 2015 - 04:13
Why stop there?
If any team reckon a particular brand of rubber is better and wants to use it, let them....
#48
Posted 26 April 2015 - 05:36
Why would Ferrari choose such an unsuitable tyre compound for a race? Well if they did make such a bad choice they'd deserve the terrible result that came with it.
Same for any other team of course.
Theoretically they could think they can handle the tire, even if it's just for qualifying. Point is that maybe they could work the tires if the weather allowed it, but if they happen to be wrong, it would make their entire weekend pointless.
#49
Posted 26 April 2015 - 05:46
http://m.gpupdate.ne...tyre-compounds/
This is a superb idea. Would give a good variety in performance without having to have a tyre war...
My 11 y.o. son & I were talking about this very idea after watching MotoGP the other day. I'd love to see it.
#50
Posted 26 April 2015 - 07:14
Theoretically they could think they can handle the tire, even if it's just for qualifying. Point is that maybe they could work the tires if the weather allowed it, but if they happen to be wrong, it would make their entire weekend pointless.
And they'd have another compound of their choice as a "safe" option. F1 could do with a bit of risk on behalf of the competitors choices. It's no different from a team bringing a new wing or suspension set up that doesn't work effectively.
Get the teams making some decisions and it would potentially give us more exciting racing too. Why should the teams be protected from making poor choices by forcing everyone to use the same thing?