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The state of auto racing in the U.S of A.?


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#1 Bob Riebe

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 17:13

http://www.carguychr...acing.html#more

 

Sprint cars and some types of drag racing seem to be doing OK but stock cars and road racing is in the toilet it would seem.

 

Of course when it comes to automobiles and what they are made of U.S. youths are not only as dumb as a pail of rocks but naive and gullible.

 

Put the letters DOHC, IRS, Turbo on a car and they start drooling, even though they have no idea why.

Pretty much like a Jack-ass following the carrot on the end of a stick.


Edited by Bob Riebe, 25 April 2015 - 17:16.


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#2 mariner

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 19:09

I can see that US auto racing is down from the giddy days of the 60's/70's but I not sure all hope is lost.

 

"Club" racing in the Uk is also a shadow of what it was but Historic racing is now huge and it didn't really exist 30 years ago. I think the same is true in the USA.

 

Of course many Historic atendees are older whte males etc but not all, it seems to have broad appeal.

 

As for US youth abandoning autos I have just been in the US Southwest for 2 1/2 weeks and the roads are swarming with new muscle cars. Challengers, Mustangs, Camaros. All as quick and far better than the old ones despite meeting all the govt. regualtions.

 

Most seemed not to be driven by older people but by the 25+ male popultaion.

 

So as long as 400bhp muscle cars are roaming the US streets in quantity I think the auto stil has a place in younger  US hearts and so will the right kind of racing.


Edited by mariner, 25 April 2015 - 19:10.


#3 63Corvette

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Posted 25 April 2015 - 21:44

http://www.carguychr...acing.html#more

 

Sprint cars and some types of drag racing seem to be doing OK but stock cars and road racing is in the toilet it would seem.

 

Of course when it comes to automobiles and what they are made of U.S. youths are not only as dumb as a pail of rocks but naive and gullible.

 

Put the letters DOHC, IRS, Turbo on a car and they start drooling, even though they have no idea why.

Pretty much like a Jack-ass following the carrot on the end of a stick.

Not so.....just PRO racing. I have Vintage raced a 1963 Z06 Corvette since 1984, and Vintage Racing is the fastest growing form of motorsport, (Besides, its a LOT more fun to participate in a race than to spectate) :lol:  I will soon (June) be racing at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and Circuit of the Americas. At Indy last year we had over 700 entries, and at CoTA, over 600. Besides "racing" there are now many sanctioning organizations offering HPDE track days, and "Country Clubs" for motorsports, like Motorsports Ranch, Cresson and Houston etc., so there are actually WAAaaay more motorsports opportunities to participate in than ever before. Certainly way more than when I was growing up and getting in to Sports car racing.



#4 Bob Riebe

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 02:39

Not so.....just PRO racing. I have Vintage raced a 1963 Z06 Corvette since 1984, and Vintage Racing is the fastest growing form of motorsport, (Besides, its a LOT more fun to participate in a race than to spectate) :lol:  I will soon (June) be racing at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and Circuit of the Americas. At Indy last year we had over 700 entries, and at CoTA, over 600. Besides "racing" there are now many sanctioning organizations offering HPDE track days, and "Country Clubs" for motorsports, like Motorsports Ranch, Cresson and Houston etc., so there are actually WAAaaay more motorsports opportunities to participate in than ever before. Certainly way more than when I was growing up and getting in to Sports car racing.

With as much vintage "racing" goes on, that has a future only as large as the past it represents.

High speed no contact demo laps to me is nice for the boys doing it but where I used to drive over 2,000 miles a year, year after year, to take in professional races; in the past twenty years every race I have gone to totals barely over two thousand miles.

There has always been a myriad of opportunities to go racing even up here in the frozen north, but unless there are races that put money in the pockets of tracks owners, tracks will keep on being ;plowed under..

 

Hot Rod magazine, has younger gents and gals write in that there are still some youths born with gearhead blood but even they can see the difference between what their parents lived through and what is being force on gearheads today..

Even automotive rags are a shadow of what once was, Hot Rod and the Hemming's publications, the gent who started Hemming's is in that big swap meet in the sky as of last year, still are written in a style similar to the way it has always been been but most of the rest are metro-sexual glamzines for fan boys.

 

It is good you can afford to have a good time but that is not the genre that can do much for racing in the U.S. of A.

Some of us busted our asses to be able to afford viewing races that put make against make and would gladly spend some more bucks if there were something out there that is not glorified spec. racing promoting contrived competition.


Edited by Bob Riebe, 27 April 2015 - 06:50.


#5 63Corvette

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 18:27

With as much vintage "racing" goes on, that has a future only as large as the past it represents.

High speed no contact demo laps to me is nice for the boys doing it but where I used to drive over 2,000 miles a year, year after year, to take in professional races; in the past twenty years every race I have gone to totals barely over two thousand miles.

There has always been a myriad of opportunities to go racing even up here in the frozen north, but unless there are races that put money in the pockets of tracks owners, tracks will keep on being ;plowed under..

 

Hot Rod magazine, has younger gents and gals write in that there are still some youths born with gearhead blood but even they can see the difference between what their parents lived through and what is being force on gearheads today..

Even automotive rags are a shadow of what once was, Hot Rod and the Hemming's publications, the gent who started Hemming's is in that big swap meet in the sky as of last year, still are written in a style similar to the way it has always been been but most of the rest are metro-sexual glamzines for fan boys.

 

It is good you can afford to have a good time but that is not the genre that can do much for racing in the U.S. of A.

Some of us busted out asses to be able to afford viewing races that put make against make and would gladly spend some more bucks if there were something out there that is not glorified spec. racing promoting contrived competition.

Well. OK then...................



#6 E1pix

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 19:42

I miss the old days as much as anybody. But blaming kids for 'being dumb' is a cultural issue from living in a country where money is more important than education.

In our day, a few parts and some wrench-turning made cars stronger. Cars becoming computers took away those possibilities.

#7 Brandnelson

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 20:17

To the OP: your attitude is what is killing racing in the US. Todays youth dont like what you like, they never will. Its old. And slow. And totally uncool. But then again, what young guy driving a 426 Hemi in the 60s was going to trade it in for a banger? Or go watch a bunch of hopped up model As race? The youth market will always be attracted to what is cutting edge at that time. Todays youth I believe has even smaller capacity for nostalgia than ever before but who cares? Real racing has no time for nostalgia. I think the reason racing in the US is struggling so badly is because the powers that be are lacking any good racing that has any relevance to what the young guys are driving or are interested in. This is the tuner generation, they dont care for stick axles and big pushrod motors powering look alike sedans in circles. Go to a drift or time attack event and check the demographics, hoards of youth. Not just there to drive but even just to hang out and "be cool" just like at Lions drag strip in the 60s. Look in the parking lot at the drift event, same models of cars as on track. Just like Daytona in the 70s. Problem is, the series that are relevant to the youth have little to no organization. Hence undersold advertising, no money, and limited success. If the old farts want youths to enjoy and be passionate about racing they need to accept the fact kids dont and wont like what was cool years ago and develop a new approach. And yes its going to involve "DOHC, IRS, and Turbo". Just like when you were a young little dumbass and you drooled over Hemi, Posi, and Cowl induction but had little understanding of flame propagation, torque biasing, or fluid dynamics.

#8 fbarrett

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 02:53

That's Charlie, a great guy. His first concern is for the other driver.



#9 BlinkyMcSquinty

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 03:47

To the OP: your attitude is what is killing racing in the US. Todays youth dont like what you like, they never will. Its old. And slow. And totally uncool. But then again, what young guy driving a 426 Hemi in the 60s was going to trade it in for a banger? Or go watch a bunch of hopped up model As race? The youth market will always be attracted to what is cutting edge at that time. Todays youth I believe has even smaller capacity for nostalgia than ever before but who cares? Real racing has no time for nostalgia. I think the reason racing in the US is struggling so badly is because the powers that be are lacking any good racing that has any relevance to what the young guys are driving or are interested in. This is the tuner generation, they dont care for stick axles and big pushrod motors powering look alike sedans in circles. Go to a drift or time attack event and check the demographics, hoards of youth. Not just there to drive but even just to hang out and "be cool" just like at Lions drag strip in the 60s. Look in the parking lot at the drift event, same models of cars as on track. Just like Daytona in the 70s. Problem is, the series that are relevant to the youth have little to no organization. Hence undersold advertising, no money, and limited success. If the old farts want youths to enjoy and be passionate about racing they need to accept the fact kids dont and wont like what was cool years ago and develop a new approach. And yes its going to involve "DOHC, IRS, and Turbo". Just like when you were a young little dumbass and you drooled over Hemi, Posi, and Cowl induction but had little understanding of flame propagation, torque biasing, or fluid dynamics.

 

I agree. I'm 64 and do not expect the youth to have the same interests as I had. The world changes, and the formats and car types that had me salivating are history. If major US series die off, then they deserve it, because they no longer attract the new and younger audience. The kids of today are not like when I was young, they grow up to different life styles and expectations. When I was their age I watched long movies, full of plots, characters, and dialog. And if today's youth would rather watch action movies short on character and plot, but full of special effects and amazing graphics, to me it's not "wrong", but just "different". The youth are not bad people, nor are they dumb.

 

For every organized club race there are probably ten street races or drifts. IMO there is a lot of interest in racing, it may just not be in line with traditional and big business racing. There is an old saying..

 

Adapt or die.



#10 Bob Riebe

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 07:56

To the OP: your attitude is what is killing racing in the US. Todays youth dont like what you like, they never will. Its old. And slow. And totally uncool.-- Racing thrived into the nineties. There was not sudden POOF now we are different. What did change in the nineties was the rules that governed racing till they became as controlling as the politicians in Wash.

Cool or uncool has nothing to do with youths babbling like ignorant children they are about car x, y or z while putting fart cans and rear-wings on fwd four door crap wagons,

 

But then again, what young guy driving a 426 Hemi in the 60s was going to trade it in for a banger? Or go watch a bunch of hopped up model As race? -- Damn few young guys in the sixties were driving Hemis, but tens of thousands of them were going to race tracks, of any genre to see them , or other high performance engines, from what ever make they preferred,  which allowed new tracks to be built and the old ones to keep running.

 

The youth market will always be attracted to what is cutting edge at that time. -- LOL, fart cans and rear wings on fwd cars, yeah right.

They don't have the faintest idea of what cutting edge is.

If you think an ohc engine or exhaust driven supercharger is cutting edge, then neither do you.

Although there were the dorks who jacked up the rear of their cars in the seventies to LOOK like a pro-stock racer. Thank God they were few and learned quickly that not only looked dumb but was hard on the car.

 

Todays youth I believe has even smaller capacity for nostalgia than ever before but who cares? Real racing has no time for nostalgia. I think the reason racing in the US is struggling so badly is because the powers that be are lacking any good racing that has any relevance to what the young guys are driving or are interested in.

This is the tuner generation, they dont care for stick axles and big pushrod motors powering look alike sedans in circles. Go to a drift or time attack event and check the demographics, hoards of youth. Not just there to drive but even just to hang out and "be cool" just like at Lions drag strip in the 60s. Look in the parking lot at the drift event, same models of cars as on track. Just like Daytona in the 70s. Problem is, the series that are relevant to the youth have little to no organization. -- Drifting is regional as is the tuner genre.

Up here you are more likely to find a late teen, early twenties boy building and running a Champ class snowmobile around a half-mile oval at over 100 mph as you are to find some one into drifting.

There is a lot more to this country than the West coast.

Drifting is not front wheel drive cars and how many of today's youth are driving new rwd Japanese cars?

There was an article on a vintage Japanese automobile site about favorite VINTAGE Japanese cars used for drifting as there are few new ones.

Yes I am aware of some U.S. cars in drifting.

 

Hence undersold advertising, no money, and limited success. If the old farts want youths to enjoy and be passionate about racing they need to accept the fact kids dont and wont like what was cool years ago and develop a new approach. And yes its going to involve "DOHC, IRS, and Turbo". Just like when you were a young little dumbass and you drooled over Hemi, Posi, and Cowl induction but had little understanding of flame propagation, torque biasing, or fluid dynamics. -- You know nothing about me but I do know more than a few ignorant twits who spout out automotive acronyms with out a clue of what the hell they are speaking of.

I knew exactly, at least as far as one can learn from auto rags and some very old tech. books from my grandfather who went to school to be a automechanic but became a farmer because his wife wanted to live on a farm, for which my father never forgave her, exactly what made a Hemi a hemi and why it was different and better in some ways, how a limited slip differential worked and why cowl induction increased engine performance so do not say I am just like any dumbass or you have made your self look like an dumb-ass.

I do not care about whether or not today's youths are passionate about racing, I care that there is nothing for them to be passionate about.

Anyone who is passionate about contrived competition lives in a very boring controlled world.

I just wish so many of today's snot faced punks driving around in cars with fart cans would not pontificate out of ignorance. (I would be happy if they actually realized how moronic it is to put a wing on the rear of a fwd econobox.)

There is a ray of hope though, the people at whom it was aimed, did actually see the Aztek as the pos, it was.

 

 

 


Edited by Bob Riebe, 27 April 2015 - 08:09.


#11 bill p

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 10:55

Well. OK then...................
https://www.youtube....d&v=4qP8qfSZAmw


Off thread!

What happened to the corner workers/marshals - were they on a coffee break?

Best part of a minute and no attendance - lucky there was no fire

#12 427MkIV

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 13:53

I have a 13-year-old stepson who likes cars and seems interested in racing, but isn't interested in working on cars such as my '67 Mustang. I also have a 2-year-old son, and I hope I can keep the Mustang long enough for him to enjoy it and work on it, but the wife wouldn't mind seeing it gone from the carport and often suggests selling it. And her dad owned a car dealership!

 

Just on the topic of the OP's linked article, paved short-track oval racing in the Southeast is fading away. Tracks that used to be packed every Saturday night in the '80s and '90s now are open just every other Saturday to a few hundred fans. Divisions struggle to get double-digit car counts. It used to be you could go to a junkyard, get a car for $50 or $100, cut out the interior, etc., etc., and go racing. You could build a late-model sportsman from a junkyard chassis. Can't do that anymore. Instead of building something yourself, you have to buy everything from a supplier, install a sealed crate engine, rack up tens of thousands of dollars in parts and tires, and then race for $1,500 to win. I don't know how someone earning a median income can do it.

 

Another thing is there are so many demands on kids' time and those demands take a lot of parents' time and money that there aren't many Saturdays that you can devote to working on a street car all day then cranking it up and going riding around that night, much less the work, time and money a race car would take.

 

Vintage racing was the first kind of racing I saw live in the 1980s at Road Atlanta. I hadn't been inside the gates 10 minutes before a guy went off track coming down the hill driving a Ferrari Daytona! If that weren't enough, the McLaren M6s and M8s, Ferrari 312s, Shelby Mustangs, 427 Cobras, on and on. Who wouldn't get hooked? Just the opposite of the spec racing that goes on now at the top levels of US motorsport.



#13 63Corvette

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 15:13

 

To the OP: your attitude is what is killing racing in the US. Todays youth dont like what you like, they never will. Its old. And slow. And totally uncool.-- Racing thrived into the nineties. There was not sudden POOF now we are different. What did change in the nineties was the rules that governed racing till they became as controlling as the politicians in Wash.

Cool or uncool has nothing to do with youths babbling like ignorant children they are about car x, y or z while putting fart cans and rear-wings on fwd four door crap wagons,

 

But then again, what young guy driving a 426 Hemi in the 60s was going to trade it in for a banger? Or go watch a bunch of hopped up model As race? -- Damn few young guys in the sixties were driving Hemis, but tens of thousands of them were going to race tracks, of any genre to see them , or other high performance engines, from what ever make they preferred,  which allowed new tracks to be built and the old ones to keep running.

 

The youth market will always be attracted to what is cutting edge at that time. -- LOL, fart cans and rear wings on fwd cars, yeah right.

They don't have the faintest idea of what cutting edge is.

If you think an ohc engine or exhaust driven supercharger is cutting edge, then neither do you.

Although there were the dorks who jacked up the rear of their cars in the seventies to LOOK like a pro-stock racer. Thank God they were few and learned quickly that not only looked dumb but was hard on the car.

 

Todays youth I believe has even smaller capacity for nostalgia than ever before but who cares? Real racing has no time for nostalgia. I think the reason racing in the US is struggling so badly is because the powers that be are lacking any good racing that has any relevance to what the young guys are driving or are interested in.

This is the tuner generation, they dont care for stick axles and big pushrod motors powering look alike sedans in circles. Go to a drift or time attack event and check the demographics, hoards of youth. Not just there to drive but even just to hang out and "be cool" just like at Lions drag strip in the 60s. Look in the parking lot at the drift event, same models of cars as on track. Just like Daytona in the 70s. Problem is, the series that are relevant to the youth have little to no organization. -- Drifting is regional as is the tuner genre.

Up here you are more likely to find a late teen, early twenties boy building and running a Champ class snowmobile around a half-mile oval at over 100 mph as you are to find some one into drifting.

There is a lot more to this country than the West coast.

Drifting is not front wheel drive cars and how many of today's youth are driving new rwd Japanese cars?

There was an article on a vintage Japanese automobile site about favorite VINTAGE Japanese cars used for drifting as there are few new ones.

Yes I am aware of some U.S. cars in drifting.

 

Hence undersold advertising, no money, and limited success. If the old farts want youths to enjoy and be passionate about racing they need to accept the fact kids dont and wont like what was cool years ago and develop a new approach. And yes its going to involve "DOHC, IRS, and Turbo". Just like when you were a young little dumbass and you drooled over Hemi, Posi, and Cowl induction but had little understanding of flame propagation, torque biasing, or fluid dynamics. -- You know nothing about me but I do know more than a few ignorant twits who spout out automotive acronyms with out a clue of what the hell they are speaking of.

I knew exactly, at least as far as one can learn from auto rags and some very old tech. books from my grandfather who went to school to be a automechanic but became a farmer because his wife wanted to live on a farm, for which my father never forgave her, exactly what made a Hemi a hemi and why it was different and better in some ways, how a limited slip differential worked and why cowl induction increased engine performance so do not say I am just like any dumbass or you have made your self look like an dumb-ass.

I do not care about whether or not today's youths are passionate about racing, I care that there is nothing for them to be passionate about.

Anyone who is passionate about contrived competition lives in a very boring controlled world.

I just wish so many of today's snot faced punks driving around in cars with fart cans would not pontificate out of ignorance. (I would be happy if they actually realized how moronic it is to put a wing on the rear of a fwd econobox.)

There is a ray of hope though, the people at whom it was aimed, did actually see the Aztek as the pos, it was.

 

 

 

 

Bob please don't take this as a flame, 'cause it's just a comment..................BUT, no one has made a personal attack on you here, just responses. I previously noted in another post that the Nostalgia Forum members seem somehow "more civilized" and less confrontational than our American forums, such as The Corvette Forum and Mustang forum. I would like to think that we can all respond to each other's posts with differing opinions without getting in to personal attacks. I am NOT a moderator or anything......just my honest opinion :wave:



#14 Brandnelson

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 15:45

Bob,
Youre making sweeping generalizations about the youth in the US. I wasn't calling you a dumbass but rather pointing out that there was a time in all of our lives when we were ignorant to the technical details of what excites us. I would love to see a good discussion on how racing can become more interesting, exciting, or relevant to the younger generation. I am not interested in discussing how much more well informed YOU were as a kid than todays tuner kids. When you refer to their demographic as "snot nosed punks" I realize you dont care to improve the situation but to rant about the youth culture you cant understand.

#15 oldtransamdriver

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 17:19

Young people to-day are mostly interested in the internet and iphones.  Many don't even have driver licenses.  Cars are not "green". They certainly don't

want to get their hands dirty working on a car.

 

Sports car club racing as we knew it in the fifties/sixties will soon be gone - now too expensive with the safety gear etc. In my day you could leave school at 16 and

get a decent factory job and you had some money in your jeans.  Now you are expected to go to college to learn mostly useless information that

you will never use, but you will have a student loan debt of many thousands hanging around your neck.

 

Even vintage racing entries are way down here in the NW.  The SOVREN gang last year had to import the local E30 Beemer spec racer "PRO 3" gang to help fill the grids

and they will be back this year. I have to say, they did put on a good race.  Many of the boomer gang who largely fueled the vintage racing boom are now too old to

race and have sold their cars   If you want to see a good vintage show you will have to go to a large SVRA event.

 

The other problem - check the age of the corner workers - you will think they just got a day pass from the senior homes.

 

Robert Barg


Edited by oldtransamdriver, 28 April 2015 - 03:47.


#16 Vitesse2

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 18:54

Wearing my mod's hat: let's play nicely, eh? This has the potential to be an interesting discussion - especially for those of us outside the US - so let's not derail it.

 

Setting the hat aside - surely US racing (and car culture generally) has always been somewhat regional to a greater or lesser extent? Correct me if I'm wrong, but NASCAR was always good ol' Southern boys and that open-wheel stuff happened somewhere north of the Mason-Dixon Line? Lakesters in the Mid-West and California, sports cars on both coasts but not really elsewhere ...



#17 D28

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 21:25

 

Setting the hat aside - surely US racing (and car culture generally) has always been somewhat regional to a greater or lesser extent? Correct me if I'm wrong, but NASCAR was always good ol' Southern boys and that open-wheel stuff happened somewhere north of the Mason-Dixon Line? Lakesters in the Mid-West and California, sports cars on both coasts but not really elsewhere ...

That is the perception looking backwards at the US racing scene, but like many things in American cultural terms, there are enough exceptions to question the very assertion. Sports car racing was always more spread out than just the two coasts. Jim Hall and Carroll Shelby both hailed from Texas, and while Shelby relocated his business interests to Ca, Hall never left Texas. Masten Gregory called Kansas City home; Augie Pabst was from the Mid West along with a fair number of other fast runners. Many circuits like Road America and Mid Ohio evolved in the Mid American region. NASCAR probably fits this regional pattern more closely than other racing series, but road racing enjoyed widespread geographic support fairly early on.



#18 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 03:35

Bob,
Youre making sweeping generalizations about the youth in the US. I wasn't calling you a dumbass but rather pointing out that there was a time in all of our lives when we were ignorant to the technical details of what excites us. I would love to see a good discussion on how racing can become more interesting, exciting, or relevant to the younger generation. I am not interested in discussing how much more well informed YOU were as a kid than todays tuner kids. When you refer to their demographic as "snot nosed punks" I realize you dont care to improve the situation but to rant about the youth culture you cant understand.

I do not think that today's youths and that goes beyond early twenties, are as a whole snot faced punks. I know well some polite, well mannered boys who are glad to learn what may or may not be true (who also when out with their friends are as much wild ass live wires as we were in the sixties and seventies)  but there are so many out there who fit that label, it is no longer an oddity.

It goes far beyond automobiles, so many of today's youth are lazy, spoiled, self-centered little brats, although the problem is really  the result of the parents and other powers of authority not something created by the youths themselves.

 

If they wish to engage in the computer games, or what ever is the in thing of the moment is, good for them, you only live once, but when they start pontificating to me on automobile related items and are doing nothing more than parroting some one else's opinion,, I will give them as much respect as they deserve. .

I will say I should have written a clarification to limit to whom that label is aimed at.



#19 john aston

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 06:41

The changing  demographic in car culture is one that we may not like but which is inevitable. When I was young , if you liked cars you bought the magazines and nearly always got interested in taking part in or watching the sport. Typically you'd start with local rallies , autotests and hillclimbs and then clamber through the rungs of circuit racing until you saw your first Grand Prix  . But now you are saturated in imagery and can watch as much TV stuff as you want   as well as playing games on the PC . In a sense this has made everybody an instant expert with the usual rush to judgement which is inevitable when you are seventeen; Maldonado locks his brakes and within a second Twitter is melting with comments about his poor driving . Look at any in car stuff on Youtube and there will be a rash of comments loftily dismissing the driver's poor lines and gearchanges- ignoring the fact that the driver has won Le Mans and has a stellar (there's a 21st Century word) career. We are no longer in awe of the great but we sit in judgement on them instead. 

 

The Top  Gear effect is massive too- knowledge is airily dismissed  as being OCD or being an anorak and the emphasis is on road cars, even though they are evaluated on track and judged by lap time . So the 15 year old Top Gear watcher thinks a 918 or P1 is the ultimate in speed and doesn't want to know  that any old F3 car bought for less than a twentieth of a P1's price would annihilate it on track and most decent street legal drag cars would leave it for dead on the strip . 

 

I attended a Time Attack event at Croft last year - sort of timed track day with hugely modified cars and the audience was five times bigger than for a club event  . Reason? Da kidz could relate to the cars because many were like the ones they drive themselves; the event had a buzz to it and even the commentary was far far livelier than what we normally get . The fact that at least 25% of the entrants couldn't drive a shovel into a pile of s**** was neither here nor there .

 

I think any 17year old exposed to the sound of a DFV or smallblock Chevy being warmed up would love it . But the average UK race meeting is bloody dire these days- spec formulae, dull sounding hot hatches cornering on rails or tragically small grids of niche cars . Add in sometimes dire commentary , endless delays , awful catering and no effort to welcome newcomers to the sport and I am not surprised at how tiny attendance is these days . Honourable exception are most MSV circuits- Cadwell is now better than ever but we still do not do enough  to make the sport interesting  and accessible . Much blame has to go to organising Clubs and /or circuits - - the people who think that selling tickets for £15 to watch grids of 3 and 4 cars (as I had to put up with last weekend ) is justifiable need a wake up call. As do the same Clubs who charge £3 or £4 or more for badly written and hopelessly uninformative programmes. Get a grip and the people may come....

 

I often attend Harewood Hillclimb and what a contrast to some other BARC events- great food, super commentary and - critically - live timing and speedtrap. We live in an information age and so why do circuits dish up the same old analogue drivel (I mean , who the hell writes down the finishing positions and times in a programme any more when all is available on line ?).    

 

Look at Pistonheads and you will see that what young ..err..petrolheads love to do is to meet up with their peers, maybe do a road run and have breakfast or lunch together while discussing modifications and who is doing what , where and when. So what do most race circuits do to attract them ? Not a bloody thing in most cases ; no discounted entry (like we used to have with Fordsport days ) . no dedicated parking  and two parts of sweet f*** a**** to see and do when they get there . I 'll say it again - too many race meetings are cynically overpriced and nothing is done to make a casual visitor want to return. The should sharpen up and see how it can be done - like the show which Goodwood, Silverstone Classic or Santa Pod put on        


Edited by john aston, 28 April 2015 - 11:04.


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#20 Michael Ferner

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 17:53

Setting the hat aside - surely US racing (and car culture generally) has always been somewhat regional to a greater or lesser extent? Correct me if I'm wrong, but NASCAR was always good ol' Southern boys and that open-wheel stuff happened somewhere north of the Mason-Dixon Line? Lakesters in the Mid-West and California, sports cars on both coasts but not really elsewhere ...


Not really true, Richard. "Open-wheel", i.e. Big Car, Sprints and Midgets have always been popular everywhere, and still are to a certain degree. North, South, East or West doesn't make a difference, although there have always been "hot spots" like Pennsylvania, Indiana, California. Virtually the same goes for "stock cars" and their brethren, modifieds, supers etc. Even NASCAR was very popular in the Northeast in the fifties! But today, they (NASCAR) like to think they invented and, more importantly, represent stock car racing as a whole, which is not and never was true. California and its hot rodding and speed trials culture is a bit special, but also not unique.

Really, the division in open-wheel vs. taxi cabs doesn't really work for America, what with the Super Mod genes in today's Sprints and nary a stock part in NASCAR.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 28 April 2015 - 17:57.


#21 D28

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 21:13

. Even NASCAR was very popular in the Northeast in the fifties! But today, they (NASCAR) like to think they invented and, more importantly, represent stock car racing as a whole, which is not and never was true. 
 

Right, even some of the hot shoes were from outside the South, notably Freddie Lorenzen from Elmhurst Illinois. He has just recently been inducted into the NASCAR Hall of Fame and about time too.



#22 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 21:27

There were regional powers, into the seventies, i.e. for stock cars, midwest-USAC, Northcentral-ASA, South-Nascar etc.

For open wheels while USAC was the big  nationally known one, due to Indy, when it got down to sprints and modifieds again there were regional, or even local track powers, or sanctions for a more correct term, along with standalone one offs.

 

There also were road racing regional sanctions for amateur beyond SCCA and IMSA, who back then may put on a small buck paying event at times.

 

"This is not even close to a true abstract of all that was available into the seventies but In the eighties this started to change finally ending up with what we have now



#23 arttidesco

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 22:42

I've just come back from my local Institute of Advanced Motorists AGM here in Bristol UK where the advancing 50+ age of the group came up for discussion, average age of those taking advanced tests is currently 42, seems to show that motoring like house ownership is moving away from the grasp of all but the richest 25 year olds.

 

This is hardly surprising when it costs several multiples of a cars value just to insure a sub 25 year old.

 

Many of those young 'uns who breath petrol between underpaid jobs with uncertain futures are more into "modding" and "stancing" their daily drivers for looks than any particular track performance advantage and more into "drifting" than circuit racing.

 

Am I correct in thinking two southern boys with 10 Sprint Cup championships between them are from California ?



#24 BRG

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 17:58

I've just come back from my local Institute of Advanced Motorists AGM here in Bristol UK where the advancing 50+ age of the group came up for discussion, average age of those taking advanced tests is currently 42, seems to show that motoring like house ownership is moving away from the grasp of all but the richest 25 year olds.

Sorry but I don't think that the IAM is any credible measure. When I was a lad, I had a debate with a friend's dad who was a IAM member.  I was using seatbelts in my Rapier, as they happened to have been fitted to it, although it was long before they became compulsory.  He argued that "a good driver doesn't need seatbelts because good drivers don't have accidents".  This convinced me that the IAM was a bunch of numpties.  We happened to discuss this in the pub the other night and my friends, all of a similar vintage, agreed with me. I suspect the IAM was always the preserve of the sort of drivers who had those V shaped 'veteran driver' badges on the badge bars of their Wolseley 15/60s.  And they were never young, even when they were.



#25 john aston

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 05:27

Inclined to agree; my wife is a member(and the fact she passed at all is still a source of wonder- bless her ) and I get to read the IAM magazine which is sub Saga drivel. Letters page always full of self righteous twonks debating whether -yawn- one should go through a red light to facilitate passage of emergency vehicles . Having said that the best driver I have travelled with is a keen IAM member - and (get this Sir Stirling ) a woman .



#26 Lemnpiper

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 07:00

   Racing is struggling in the USA since 3 of the key reasons  it started up was vanished ,

 

 

  1  Racing was  started to prove your product was a better product vs you competitor's .  And with so many of the top series in the USA seemingly   consisting of "spec" like cars  , that dynamic has vanished.

 

 2  Racing would improve cars available for the avg driver .   What are the recent innovations that have come from racing to the everyday car?. Outside maybe the use of carbon fiber to lighten the everyday car I cant see much in the last  20-25 years.

 

 3  And the big reason is  COST.  It wasn't long ago you could get into the sport for a very nominal cost . And as others have said costs have to be reigned back to establish a base of folks who want to participate  to the point where even if they themselves cant actually doin the driving, can afford to own the car and be able to construct it themselves.  Once you price a lotta of potential YOUTHFUL participants (be they driver or owner) out of the sport  , you will fail to hold onto them long term as they seek out other sports to persue.

 

 

   Keep in mind it isn't only auto racing in the USA struggling  . Attend a Rod & Custom car show  or say Hershey's swap meet and take note of the  ages of their participants.  Dealing with car now is expensive and if the next generation cannot afford to do so , all sports involving motorized vehicles will decline in popularity no matter how "vets" like us try to talk it up.

 

 

    Paul

 

 

   Wings and Spec motors on Indy cars have stagnated that sport's  innovation (ditto F1)  ,And spec cars that the drivers have little to build in Nascar  are killing that branch, along with idiotic chase ideas.



#27 Peter Morley

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 09:24

I don't think these problems are exclusive to America.

 

As Paul says modern racing cars have so little to do with road cars that they no longer show which road cars are better than others.

The primary reason for current racing is advertising and the vast majority of products being advertised have nothing to do with cars (in F1s case the main event sponsors are becoming countries that no one has any desire to visit trying to encourage us to do so!), originally it was all about motoring products.

 

The formulas themselves have got in a total mess, F1 should have nothing to do with manufacturers (except for manufacturers of racing cars), manufacturers belong in sports car racing.

The road car manufacturers are in F1 and it has tyre & fuel management, the racing car manufacturers are in sports car racing and they race from start to end.

Similarly saloon cars (or Nascars) have nothing to do with the cars they purport to be and you can no longer buy a road car with anything like the same spec. as a rally car.

 

And the costs of running all these travesties is ridiculous and totally out of reach of most enthusiasts, so there will be far less people who seriously dream of becoming racing drivers (unless Daddy owns something like a telecoms company).

 

Given this is the Nostalgia Forum it isn't surprising that we all yearn for the past, the problem is those who don't know about the past think it is as good as it can be and find more interesting things to do, if the powers that be really want too improve the situation they should do like we do and look at their past.

 

A friend who isn't particularly interested in F1 watched an in car video of our Connaught the other day and said it was far more exciting than modern F1, which we knew! A driver's hands moving constantly, the car moving about and running extremely closely to other cars (not to mention swapping places with them) is so much more exciting than waiting to see if the entire staff of Kwikfit can change wheels in a couple of seconds and gives the impression that the driver is working rather hard unlike a taxi driver asking on his radio what he should do next.

 

Supposedly no one wants to go backwards and F1 particularly doesn't want to slow their cars down or lose the "exciting" technology, while they think like that they will never improve the show - there are plenty of other sports, companies, products etc. that have realised that going back to basics is the way forward.

If modern cars were 5-10 seconds a lap slower very few of the spectators would notice the difference but they would really appreciate it if they no longer had to watch a procession.

 

Unfortunately progress means that driving is becoming far less of a skill and cars are turning into white products where the owner is only interested in what features it has but if racing went back to being a sport it could attract more fans again.



#28 D28

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 01:27

 

 

The formulas themselves have got in a total mess, F1 should have nothing to do with manufacturers (except for manufacturers of racing cars), manufacturers belong in sports car racing.

The road car manufacturers are in F1 and it has tyre & fuel management, the racing car manufacturers are in sports car racing and they race from start to end.

 

I totally agree with this. F1 made a huge error by allowing auto manufacturers access to influence, and even dictate what the current racing formula would be. The large corporations have a notorious ambivalent attitude towards racing and its effect on company costs.

F1 racing existed for years without being a test bed for production automobiles, why must it be that now? I think the technical regulations should have favoured a fairly conventional racing engine similar to previous editions. Auto  manufacturers could have developed such an engine themselves or through a subsidiary, partnered with a racing team, or developed the whole car themselves, but the regulations should have been on a take it or leave it basis.  



#29 ray b

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 04:01

we have a ton of 2 liter front engine sports cars

sky and the other 2  z-3 mx5 s2000

 

as they get cheaper and older

I see a lot of new road racers coming out IN those cars

 

we need something better then a go-kart

like the old F-v but CHEAP

 

BIG BUCK STUFF LIKE F-1 OR NASTYCAR WILL SURVIVE

but the kids need a cheap way to start

 

that is but one reason I HATE car collectors

they horde the good stuff as investments

that should be worn out on the streets or track



#30 63Corvette

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 18:49

we have a ton of 2 liter front engine sports cars

sky and the other 2  z-3 mx5 s2000

 

as they get cheaper and older

I see a lot of new road racers coming out IN those cars

 

we need something better then a go-kart

like the old F-v but CHEAP

 

BIG BUCK STUFF LIKE F-1 OR NASTYCAR WILL SURVIVE

but the kids need a cheap way to start

 

that is but one reason I HATE car collectors

they horde the good stuff as investments

that should be worn out on the streets or track

I won't disagree with you, BUT...............Vintage RACING is about the CARS...........not the drivers. Many who collect cars also RACE them, so non car people who may have never seen (say) a W196 or a 250 GTO can actually see them (or a Corvette racing a Cobra) rather than seeing them as a static display in a Museum. There is a place for "old cars" and the intent is to save the valuable ones (a magnesium bodied Bugatti) and not let them turn to junk. :clap:



#31 427MkIV

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 15:07

I don't think these problems are exclusive to America.

 

As Paul says modern racing cars have so little to do with road cars that they no longer show which road cars are better than others.

The primary reason for current racing is advertising and the vast majority of products being advertised have nothing to do with cars (in F1s case the main event sponsors are becoming countries that no one has any desire to visit trying to encourage us to do so!), originally it was all about motoring products.

 

Another problem with racing, and this weekend's NASCAR race at Talladega, is the perfect example, is that in many cases race cars have exceeded the speeds race tracks can safely permit and drivers can physically handle. This year is the 30th anniversary of Bill Elliott's 205 mph pole speed and making up 5 miles under green in the 1985 Winston 500, neither of which could happen today. Elliott was on the cover of Sports Illustrated in 1985 because he was so fast.. Now, NASCAR gets in mainstream media only when something bad happens.

 

In some GT classes, the race cars have less horsepower than their street versions.

 

Is it really racing when cars have to be slowed down?



#32 BRG

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 15:54

 

Is it really racing when cars have to be slowed down?

Yes, of course it is, as long as it is applied equitably.  There have long been restrictions on power.  For instance, F3 cars have run with a intake restrictor for decades, otherwise they would be much faster.  But it equalised the differing engines and prevented an escalating cash=power race to extinction.  

 

GT car racing would simply evaporate if there wasn't some equalisation and hence restriction on power.  One marque/model would dominate and the series would quickly become a one make procession and then die off, as happened repeatedly in the past.



#33 Bob Riebe

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 19:17

 

GT car racing would simply evaporate if there wasn't some equalisation and hence restriction on power.  One marque/model would dominate and the series would quickly become a one make procession and then die off, as happened repeatedly in the past.

 

You mean like the equalization rules did to GT1 in ALMS?

 

No reason to run if you know the money you spent to will go down the toilet as happened to Saleen.

 

Had there always been equalization rules, Roger Penske would not have wasted his time in racing.



#34 E1pix

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Posted 04 May 2015 - 19:49

Had there always been equalization rules, Roger Penske would not have wasted his time in racing.


I'm not so sure about that, though I may agree if NOTHING on the cars were allowed to be adjusted. Such 'equalization rules' are in greater force now than ever, yet Penske continues to be in the top three year after year. Yes, budget plays a huge part but there's still plenty of car settings to tweak, gut reactions to changing conditions still separate winning from not, and choosing the right drivers still makes a difference.

As long as positive thinking still exists, winners will generally find a way to win.

One way to interest the young may be to have a lottery at the tracks to give rides to younguns during lunch hour -- and as many of them as possible (might have to blindfold any attorneys present, however). As we all know, it's about speed and atmosphere, and hooking them is easier if properly exposed. To get them to the track, drivers may need more interaction with kids in schools, without exposure they have no idea what they're missing. I don't for a minute think kids haven't the capacity to love it like we do.

I'm not pleased with spec concepts either, but economic changes have dictated it. Hard tires are a start to cut budgets, I'd personally rather watch slower cars than no cars -- and at the rate we're going that's exactly where we're heading.

#35 Snakedriver

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 03:59

I have hope. My demographic...Im 46 year old American. Im sort of in the middle, Im not an oldtimer, but certainly not a tuner kid. My drug of choice is British Sports cars. When I finially bought my "dream car", a Morgan I had swapped the pre-cross flow with a BDA. Now here is the key when I explain the car to the "kids" I tell them that the engine was out of what was the WRX STI of the day...Attention gotten-brace for the questions. I make it a point to take the Morgan to the the Saturday night tuner meets. Many have asked if they can help me with the Cooper both in the shop and at the track. One guy imparticular built up a Subaru Legacy wagon a with really bad ass STi drivetrain.

Its going on...maybe we just havent looked behind the right tree. All things are cyclical. Im sure at some point it will come back around, most likely just not exactally the way it was before.

Leo

Edited by Snakedriver, 07 May 2015 - 04:01.


#36 E1pix

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 04:12

Hear, here.

#37 BRG

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 18:51

Its going on...maybe we just havent looked behind the right tree.

Spot on.  Emphasis might change, but the need for speed never goes away.



#38 Snakedriver

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 02:22

So what I was sort of getting at, is we need to welcome them in to our fold, as well as maybe take even just a small interest into what they are doing.  And let me tell you something, its nice having a guy to call when the check engine light comes on and gives you some code that needs decoded, and then explained Barney style!

 

Leo