178 replies to this topic

[Hati]

Would they have NOT picked Max if his father had been a non F1-driver.

 

Would Max have gotten to the point where they picked him if his father had not been an F1-driver? It's just a wild guess but had Jos been a factory worker instead of an ex-F1 driver Max probably wouldn't have had opportunity to impress in karts and he would now be home playing with Playstation and dreaming of a life of an F1 driver.

[Nathan]

There are just four drivers on the current grid who came into F1 by their own merit. Not by deep pockets from a personal sponsor or a talent program. And those lads are Raikkonen, Hulkenberg, Bottas and Alonso. 
These days all you need are good connections to get you a seat (Ericsson). 

 

Every driver you mentioned was brought through junior racing and put into F1 by people that had established driver talent programs. Raikkonen (and Button) by the Robertsons who funded drivers for a slice of their earnings, Alonso (Gene) by Campos, Hulkenberg by Wili Weber of Schumacher fame, and Bottas by Wolff who just happened to be a shareholder of Bottas's first F1 team.

 

All those drivers needed to have doors opened and seats funded by other people, so in that way they are no different than a Hamilton, Perez who had pretty good karting careers. Their talents go them picked up, and their talents got them F1 rides, but there were people in between orchestrating it all.  We can sit here and name many other talented drivers that never made F1 because they didn't have the same connections.

Edited by Nathan, 25 September 2018 - 15:16.

[F1matt]

Every driver you mentioned was brought through junior racing and put into F1 by people that had established driver talent programs. Raikkonen (and Button) by the Robertsons who funded drivers for a slice of their earnings, Alonso (Gene) by Campos, Hulkenberg by Wili Weber of Schumacher fame, and Bottas by Wolff who just happened to be a shareholder of Bottas's first F1 team.

 

All those drivers needed to have doors opened and seats funded by other people, so in that way they are no different than a Hamilton, Perez who had pretty good karting careers. Their talents go them picked up, and their talents got them F1 rides, but there were people in between orchestrating it all.  We can sit here and name many other talented drivers that never made F1 because they didn't have the same connections.

 

 

We are going to end up with Mansell as the last driver to end up in F1 on his own merit at this rate......

[sopa]

Makes me sick how elitist this sport is.

 

F1 and the feeder ladder is the most expensive sport of all. So no surprise that only the rich reach up there.

 

As for former F1 drivers. Most of them are pretty well off, so no surprise they can afford their sons to proceed on the career-ladder. Mick Schumacher could afford to buy himself any F1 seat on the grid on the back of the fortune his father earned.

[Maustinsj]

Makes me sick how elitist this sport is. The barriers to entry need to be lowered. Who knows the next Senna is somewhere right now, 28 and unable to afford a formula drive.

Yep. Although you got my age wrong.

[Cynic2]

Nemo,

 

I would only slightly disagree with your comments about Michael Andretti in this way:  Had he been married to someone else, or better yet, unmarried at the time he drove for McLaren, I believe he would nave been more successful.  Perhaps not a huge success -- I'm not at all sure I could justify that -- but more successful.

 

 

Cynic

[whitewaterMkII]

I used to go with a gal that was into Equestrian sports and it's very similar to F1 in that you need gobs of money to get to the Olympic level. Even there though it takes a huge dose of talent to go well. At the barn she trained at Arnold Shwarznegger and Leslie Neilsens girls were training and had some great mounts. Also much like F1, you need a superb ride to win, and some of those horses go for close to a mil, with maintenance, boarding and training costing a fortune every year. There are more than a few high level sports that it seems only the 1% can get into solely because of $$$

[Junky]

Makes me sick how elitist this sport is. The barriers to entry need to be lowered. Who knows the next Senna is somewhere right now, 28 and unable to afford a formula drive.

 

F1 was always an elitist sport. Maybe now is a little bit more than before, but it was always the tendency. And your example can be replicable to any other sport.

[kumo7]

Son't we need a 'Junior' category where the children of celebrated drivers will race. 

I guess it get much supports form commercial parties.

[goldenboy]

I really don't see the point of this thread. I mean, what do you expect? What can you even do?

Motorsport is expensive. End of.

[FirstnameLastname]

What’s the most amount of members of one family to have competed in F1? Do Michael, Ralf and Mick set the benchmark?

Hoping Seb Montoya makes it to F1, although don’t think he’s setting the junior formulas alight.

Hugo Hakkinen gave it all up to chase football instead.

Not sure what other offspring are on their way up?

[pacificquay]

What’s the most amount of members of one family to have competed in F1? Do Michael, Ralf and Mick set the benchmark?

Hoping Seb Montoya makes it to F1, although don’t think he’s setting the junior formulas alight.

Hugo Hakkinen gave it all up to chase football instead.

Not sure what other offspring are on their way up?

 

Emerson, Wilson, Christian, Pietro and potentially Enzo to come for the Fittipaldis

[DeKnyff]

Every driver you mentioned was brought through junior racing and put into F1 by people that had established driver talent programs. Raikkonen (and Button) by the Robertsons who funded drivers for a slice of their earnings, Alonso (Gene) by Campos, Hulkenberg by Wili Weber of Schumacher fame, and Bottas by Wolff who just happened to be a shareholder of Bottas's first F1 team.

 

All those drivers needed to have doors opened and seats funded by other people, so in that way they are no different than a Hamilton, Perez who had pretty good karting careers. Their talents go them picked up, and their talents got them F1 rides, but there were people in between orchestrating it all.  We can sit here and name many other talented drivers that never made F1 because they didn't have the same connections.

 

Alonso, Hamilton, Räikkönen, even Vettel are guys who come from middle or working class environments and whose families were not professionally related to the sport. Sure, their backers helped them into F1, but they were backed first and foremost because they had shown talent at the earlier stages of their careers. It's not the same than the sons of billionaires or former F1 drivers who can literally purchase their way up to at least F2.

 

All drivers need backing, but some just get it easier than others.

[William Hunt]

F1 was always an elitist sport. Maybe now is a little bit more than before, but it was always the tendency. And your example can be replicable to any other sport.

 

Not really if you look at the background, from which families they came, back in the '60s, '70s, '80s and still the '90s. People like Johnny Herbert weren't spoiled multi-millionaire kids you know, he like many others who reached F1 in the '70s-'80s, came from an average mid class familly. Back in the early '80s Pironi for example had a reputation of spoiled rich kid amongst his peers (although he didn't finance his carreer with family money but with Elf money and his own effort) but this is the norm today.

In the past it had something elitist but still many people from middle class background still could reach it. In the '70s & '80s there were a lot of drivers with modest backgrounds who made it to F1. That is simply unthinkable today unless a kid is picked up by a big sponsor at very young age (10-12 years) but even then the chances of progressing are still slim.
Today it became a sport for kids who's dad is a multi millionaire or even a billionaire (Stroll, Latif, Mazepin).
The way elitist was defined in the '70s-'80s is very different from today. The rich also got a huge amount richer in the meantime compared to those days, inequality is far higher today. Many of the teams participating back in the '80s would be looked down on by the likes of Toto Wolff and called marginal beggers. Neoliberalism had a grip on many sports but on F1 the grip is very bad.

 

People like Mansell or Herbert would have a very hard task, an almost impossible mountain, to reach F1 today. 750.000 until 1 million (euro I assume) for a season of F3 and 2 million for a top seat in F2 today, 100.000 euro (and that's without private testing) for F4. Not exactly something the average middle class family can afford unless they have a big sponsor: then F4 or F. Regional is still do-able (Ugo De Wilde managed it with crowdfunding and some support of smaller sponsors but moving to F3 was financially completely impossible even though he had won his first F. Renault Eurocup race on his debut) but entering F3 is a massive hurdle, even for drivers with a good sponsor. Apparently the FIA is okay with their sport becoming a sport for millionaire kids and the ultra rich. This way it is alienating itself from what society looks like. And that also gives amunition for people who don't like motorsport to cricitice it even more.

Edited by William Hunt, 11 March 2022 - 02:24.

[D1rtyHarry]

Johnny Herbert was never given a fair go of the sport, he had a nasty accident in a **** car yet he still regularly beat the Sky pundits who had race winning cars in F1 like Damon Hill and Martin Brundle. Johnny is fast. There's a reason why Chris Rea made a song just for him:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=7SL_Qvz0_Lg

[William Hunt]

Johnny Herbert was an F1 future world champion in the making talent wise. He was never the same after his Brand Hatch F3000 horror crash. He was a shadow of who he was as a driver after that crash really: handicapped for life. Even today he is still in pain every day. It's a miracle he still raced in F1 afterwards (thanks to Benetton team boss Peter Collins, who still kept on believing in Johnny, who was ousted by Briatore halfway '89) and even managed to win 3 races.

Johnny's biography is really a must-read. He himself said that before the crash everything he did was on instinct, it went automatically and he never had that feeling again afterwards. After his crash he had to think what to do in the car instead of driving from his natural instinct.

One could say the same in a way about Martin Brundle. He also suffered from his crash in '84 where he broke his ankles; Brundle couldn't put the same pressure on the pedal anymore after that crash and had to change his driving style. But Johnny would have been a world champion in F1 without his shunt, that was of no fault of his (Gregor Foitek caused it), imho, I'm strongly convinced of that. He had so much natural talent. He was an artist behind the wheel and after his shunt he had to work very hard to come even close to the level he had before, it didn't come instinctively anymore.
In Johnny's time it was also getting more expensive but the amounts needed are nothing like now. If you had the talent and people who believed in you then you would get your chance. Johnny didn't pay for his F3000 seat, Eddie Jordan, his team boss, took care of that and made sure he had the budget to run someone who he believed in: that's how it should be. Team bosses looking for finance themselves to run a real talent. Today junior teams just take a pay check from their, mostly very wealthy, drivers. The whole business model in junior single seaters is depending on rich families who usually have businesses themselves to support their son.
Perry McCarthy funded his F3 drive by working on an oil rig in the winter. He worked for it himself. That amount of money wouldn't even get you an F4 seat today, let alone an F3 seat.

 

You know back in the '80s Ken Tyrrell asked 200.000$ of sponsorship for an F1 drive: peanuts  (Emanuele Pirro was offered a drive in '86 for that amount by Tyrrell but he declined since he didn't want to become a pay driver. Streiff got that drive instead because he had a French sponsor in the computer business). Today you wouldn't even get an F3 seat for that amount. It could fund just 2 seasons of F4...
Today drivers like Mick Schumacher (10 million sponsorship), Mazepin (20 million) or Latifi & Zhou (reportedly around 30 million $) bring insane amounts. Budget cap should be at least half of what it now is if we want to avoid F1 choosing drivers with that kind of money.

 

If FIA thinks diversity is important, well diversity is not just a question of skin colour, nationality or the sex of a driver (woman or man). Diversity also means diversity in background and people from working & middle class getting a chance to reach it. The criteria should be based on talent, persistance & skills not on  the amount of money on your parents bank account.

Edited by William Hunt, 11 March 2022 - 02:42.

[ArnageWRC]

It was always amazing he was on the grid in Rio in March 1989......and finished 4th........

 

 

The thing that always gets me, is teams want drivers to bring a budget to run them; why don't they actually do their job properly, and raise the sponsorship themselves? That's part of running a successful sports team.......If you need drivers to bring money/sponsorship, you're doing it wrong.

[William Hunt]

It was always amazing he was on the grid in Rio in March 1989......and finished 4th........

 

 

The thing that always gets me, is teams want drivers to bring a budget to run them; why don't they actually do their job properly, and raise the sponsorship themselves? That's part of running a successful sports team.......If you need drivers to bring money/sponsorship, you're doing it wrong.

 

 

That's exactly spot on but it's also a consequence of costs running far out of control and teams have to make these costs in order to be able to be competitive. If budgets are so high it's also very hard to find sponsors. Back in the '80s you had so many smaller companies still able to sponsor F1 because it was still relatively afordable compared to today.

 

But you are correct, in particular in feeder single seater series nowadays those teams business model is based on drivers bringing budget but actually that should be their task. The teams themselves are lazy in a way. They just sell their seats, some just to the highest bidder, instead of funding the racing themselves.

Can you imagine soccer teams getting players because they bring money or a shirt sponspor?

Edited by William Hunt, 11 March 2022 - 11:03.

[Sterzo]

But Johnny would have been a world champion in F1 without his shunt, that was of no fault of his (Gregor Foitek caused it), imho, I'm strongly convinced of that. He had so much natural talent.

 

Agree totally with your assessment of Herbert's talent. Responsibility for the accident is less clear cut. I was one of the nine spectators present (yes, I counted them), plus of course several marshals. Foitek was unpopular with his competitors and was held responsible for the red flag which caused the restart before the accident. He was off-line to the right when Herbert moved across to defend. Without an aerial view (and there isn't one) we can't be definitive about whether the error was Foitek's or Herbert's. From my angle it looked like Herbert moved over, not realising Foitek's nose was already alongside his rear wheel. Herbert certainly moved across earlier than the norm, which might have caught out Foitek. Who knows.

[William Hunt]

I agree that it's not that clear cut. If you listen carefully to Johnny's explanation he actually clearly said he moved over a little bit so that Foitek would not have the room to pass anymore. However Foitek did have a reputation of dangerous driving that year, a reputation he did deserve imho and he did push Moreno off track what caused the restart but he was a very quick driver actually.

Gregor's dad was an ex driver (who raced at Le Mans in the '60s) who wanted his son to realise his dream, he was under a lot of pressure to perform from his dad although his heart was never really in it I think. Foitek was lucky that internet didn't exist then because he would have been the victim of (death) threats online, like Latifi experienced. The hate against Foited still is present today (as I've once noticed on the Nostalghia forum). Sure he was an agressive driver but in the end: no driver on earth would want to cause such an accident. It wasn't on purpose regardless of who was at fault.

The reason that Johnny's injuries were so appaling was because he crashed exactly at the point where the bridge was, his car actually first hit a concrete wall and then bounced to the other side of the track in armco. But it was mainly the concrete from the first impact that smashed his legs. Also a crucial factor in those F3000 days was that the legs were positioned past the front suspension which is extremely dangerous because they would be exposed in a frontal crash as wel also saw with the crash of Brundle in F1 in '84.

 

However the result of a driver mistake should never be that your legs / ankles are smashed and that you suffer pain for the rest of your life. I believe that in F1 at the time they had already moved the positiion of the front axle compared to the position of the legs / feet but not yet in F3000. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That year, 1988, saw several huge accidents in F3000. Michel Trollé, a very promissing Frenchman who had an offer to drive for Tyrrell in '89, also smashed his legs in a carreer ending accident (although he did still do Le Mans a couple of times but he clearly was significantly slower and like Herbert he was handicaped for life). 

Edited by William Hunt, 11 March 2022 - 11:22.

[FirstnameLastname]

Sebastian Montoya has signed as a Redbull Junior

They’ll have him in F3 this year

Loved Juan back in the day… shame to see his name associated with Redbull. Although thinking about it - they’d have probably been the most logical fit as a partnership!

[midgrid]

I believe that in F1 at the time they had already moved the positiion of the front axle compared to the position of the legs / feet but not yet in F3000. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

IIRC the drivers' feet had to be behind the front-axle line in new F1 cars from 1988, but not "revised" cars, such as the Ferrari from that year.

[pUs]

Makes me sick how elitist this sport is. The barriers to entry need to be lowered. Who knows the next Senna is somewhere right now, 28 and unable to afford a formula drive.

 

I feel a bit the same. Read some comments from Toto re: the new US team recently. The way he spoke about "what this business doesn't need is.." was so weird to read. I just don't know what to say. It's as if we're viewing two completely different things. I still live in this naive world where it's a sport first and foremost, and a business as well. It's as if the "sport" thing was way down his list..

[PayasYouRace]

It was always amazing he was on the grid in Rio in March 1989......and finished 4th........


The thing that always gets me, is teams want drivers to bring a budget to run them; why don't they actually do their job properly, and raise the sponsorship themselves? That's part of running a successful sports team.......If you need drivers to bring money/sponsorship, you're doing it wrong.

Alternatively, if you can get someone else to do something for you, you’re doing it right.

[Bleu]

IIRC the drivers' feet had to be behind the front-axle line in new F1 cars from 1988, but not "revised" cars, such as the Ferrari from that year.

 

Yes, and this rule caused Osella FA1L (how fittingly named) to fail pre-race scrutineering in Imola.

[Nathan]

 

The thing that always gets me, is teams want drivers to bring a budget to run them; why don't they actually do their job properly, and raise the sponsorship themselves? That's part of running a successful sports team.......If you need drivers to bring money/sponsorship, you're doing it wrong.

 

I have done sponsorship work for sports non-profits for over a decade now, and there are three reasons.  The general thought is sponsorship is about handing out free tickets, hanging banners and taking the cheque. It's much more than that. The silly one is sponsorship brokering doesn't make you rich enough to buy yourself an F1 team to show how it's done.  The main reason is its it's own unintuitive skillset.  Team owners are racing people, that is their focus.  The character to push yourself to the top of F1 doesn't match the patience and arse kissing of sponsorship.  Small teams don't have the resources to hire someone that may not deliver for 6-12 months.  I know they can be super annoying to managing directors. And because so few racing bosses are business people they scoff at 20-30% commissions charged by contractors when they can get 90-95% of what the desperate driver brings for almost no work and no feeling of owing the drivers sponsor much outside tickets and stickers.

[Primo]

Makes me sick how elitist this sport is. The barriers to entry need to be lowered. Who knows the next Senna is somewhere right now, 28 and unable to afford a formula drive.

 

Oh, I'm older than that... 

[917k]

Sebastian Montoya has signed as a Redbull Junior

They’ll have him in F3 this year

Loved Juan back in the day… shame to see his name associated with Redbull. Although thinking about it - they’d have probably been the most logical fit as a partnership!

That’s clearly a name signing…his results to date certainly don’t warrant a RB junior ride, IMO.

[RedRabbit]

I have done sponsorship work for sports non-profits for over a decade now, and there are three reasons. The general thought is sponsorship is about handing out free tickets, hanging banners and taking the cheque. It's much more than that. The silly one is sponsorship brokering doesn't make you rich enough to buy yourself an F1 team to show how it's done. The main reason is its it's own unintuitive skillset. Team owners are racing people, that is their focus. The character to push yourself to the top of F1 doesn't match the patience and arse kissing of sponsorship. Small teams don't have the resources to hire someone that may not deliver for 6-12 months. I know they can be super annoying to managing directors. And because so few racing bosses are business people they scoff at 20-30% commissions charged by contractors when they can get 90-95% of what the desperate driver brings for almost no work and no feeling of owing the drivers sponsor much outside tickets and stickers.

Interesting post. I was involved in marketing and advertising for a few years, and know that sports sponsorship is much, much more complex than a lot of fans believe.

It goes far beyond stickers on cars or branding on shirts when you start getting to the higher levels, and I can see your point that racing bosses would much rather take the easy route of demanding money from the driver in exchange for their seat.

The expectation from the driver's sponsor would be completely different compared to a team sponsor.