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Champions since 1970 in -YOUR- words


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#1 Gold

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 16:05

It would be great to get perspective on how champions are seen throughout the world by different people.

 

 

How about a list of all recent champions with their personality and character defining traits in your own words.

 

 

Be as critical as you like (yet polite!) as for every negative listing by one, a positive trait will be stated by another.

 

 

And please keep to actual overriding character traits and not a one off thing a driver said or did once.

 

 

I'll start:

 

 

James Hunt - Legitimate craziest party guy champion in F1 history
Niki Lauda - Toughest never give up, no pain attitude champion since Nuvolari.
Alain Prost - "The Professeur". The most calculated thinking champion in F1 history.
Ayrton Senna - Mystic virtuoso poet and F1 recluse. Arguably fastest driver ever and champion with most determination in F1 history.
Nigel Mansell - Fearless, persistent yet genuine drama queen of theatrics.
Damon Hill - Good driver made champion by team - No overriding unique characteristic to me
Jacques Villeneuve - Good driver (not as good as father) made champion by team. No overriding unique characteristic to me.
Hakkinen - Only champion with large enough testes and talent to stick it to Schumacher.
Michael Schumacher - The dirty record book.
Fernando Alonso - No overriding unique character. Prost light? Don't really know what to say. No overriding unique characteristic to me.
Kimi Raikkonen - Mr Monotone. Calmest but possibly the most boring to listen to F1 champion in history.
Sebastian Vettel - The awkward yet likeable Red Bull man child to me.
Jenson Button - Safest champion. Yet also the most unspectacular/boring F1 champion in history as argued by some? 
Lewis Hamilton - Groomed for greatness, arguably fastest driver of modern era, let down by weak, impressionable and fragile mind.
 
 
I know I have been warned in the past of pitting fans of one driver against fans of another. This was never my intention. I am genuinely interested in what are seen by fans around the world as the defining character traits of champion drivers. Perhaps this will allow us to appreciate drivers who we don't know much about, a little more.

Edited by Gold, 11 May 2015 - 16:17.


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#2 redraven9

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 16:38

Fernando Alonso - No overriding unique character. Prost light? Don't really know what to say. No overriding unique characteristic to me.

Stopped reading



#3 Henri Greuter

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 18:43

Looking at your avatar and then compare what you wrote about that driver and what you wrote about MS.....

 

Not that I am a fan of MS who comes up for his sake.

But you're using two different yardsticks for two near similar drivers to make what appears to  be your your favorite look so much better.

 

pass on the bucket please....

 

 

Henri



#4 Dick Dastardly

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 18:50

Keke Rosberg.....lucked into his '82 WDC but had big balls...160+ average round Silverstone in 85 !!  

Sir Jackie Stewart....the ultimate racer, head & shoulders above the others 68 -73, brought a new level of professionalism to the sport


Edited by Dick Dastardly, 11 May 2015 - 18:52.


#5 HeadFirst

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 19:36

Kimi R - Funniest driver ever. A unique individual, unwilling to play the corporate game and very fast.



#6 Spillage

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 19:42

Now, I never saw a lot of these guys race, so I'll base this on some reasonably extensive reading. I'll try to provide one positive and one negative aspect of the career of each.

 

Rindt - Hardest man on the list to rank, as he was killed far too soon. Clearly blisteringly fast - enough to easily beat Brabham in the same car. As I say, died too young for a reasonable assessment of his place in history, although rumour has it he would've retired at the end of 1970 anyway.

Stewart - Probably one of the ten best drivers ever to sit in a Formula 1 car. Hard to rank him down, really - perhaps one could say Graham Hill at a slight edge over him at BRM, but he was also vastly more experienced.

Fittipaldi - Achieved an awful lot very young. Really good record in the States as well. Highly talented, but a bit like Michael Owen - you expect him to push on and get better, but he doesn't. Also hand-grenaded his own career by pootling around in his brother's team for what might have been his peak in the late seventies.

Lauda - Perhaps the hardest bastard ever to sit in an F1 car. A personal favourite of mine, almost every aspect of his story is characterised by extraordinary determination. From buying his way into the sport to coming back from his accident to returning after a two-year hiatus and overcoming the faster Prost in the same car. Combustible - falling-out with Ferrari probably cost him a title or two, and he was definitely slower than Prost at Mclaren - but he was really, really quick early in his career. Underrated nowadays.

Hunt - Interesting character. More like Raikkonen than we give him credit for - extremely quick, but with a very definite peak and a spark that began gradually to dim after he won the title.

Andretti - A man of incredible achievements on both sides of the Atlantic. Not only instrumental in the development of the ground-effects Lotus, but also quicker than people give him credit for; he usually outqualified Peterson in 1978. Another driver it's difficult to criticise. Perhaps if he'd been more focused on F1 throughout his career he could have achieved more, but then, it's not like he wasted his time in America...

Scheckter - Pretty underrated. Villeneuve was probably a bit quicker, but Jody hardly disgraced himself, particularly on the days when the car was tricky. Crash-happy early in his career and seemingly gave up once he won the title, though. Could have achieved more - not many people realise he was actually younger than Villeneuve.

Jones - Bit like Hunt, really. Really fast (fast enough to win a race with an unlikely team), but a combustible character who's career began to wane after he won the title. His comeback was a real shame, as well.

Piquet - Sometimes maligned on this board, but he must have had something. Performances in the early eighties very strong, but kept on racing for too long. Perhaps he was never as quick as Mansell, but then, not many drivers are. Quite often his attitude stunk as well.

Rosberg - Hate to say it but a bit lucky. Took his sole chance to win a title well, (although he wouldn't have won it without Pironi's crash) and was unbeatable on his day, but his 'day' wasn't as often as some of the drivers on this list. Found out when paired with a top-class teammate (Prost). Bit like his son, really.

Prost - Clever, hard-working, and faster than he's given credit for. Outpointed Senna during both of their seasons as teammates, although he wasn't as quick (but then, who was?) Fantastic title in 1986 and was good enough to be WDC at the age of 38. In the era of the ego, though, he certainly had one, with acrimonious departures from Renault, Mclaren and Ferrari.

Senna - What to say? Maybe the fastest driver of all time. I wouldn't like to rank the quadrangle of Fangio-Clark-Senna-Schumacher but I'm quite confident in saying that they're better than anyone else to do it since 1950. Downsides? Well, he did used to make some mistakes and in the era of ego, his was the biggest of all. The apparently premeditated ramming of Prost at Suzuka in 1990 was probably the most disgraceful thing the sport has ever seen. But goodness, what a talent he was.

Mansell - A late burner, but he burned bright. Fantastic overtaker, balls like melons, one title a poor showing given the quality of his performances from 1985-1992. Had longevity as well - won his final race aged 40. Downsides would be a ginormous ego and the fact that he didn't set the world alight at Lotus. But a great driver all the same.

Schumacher - See Senna. Astoundingly, astonishingly, sometimes unbelievably fast. Outstanding longevity (good enough to win a race for sixteen straight seasons) but, like Senna, sometimes downright dirty. Senna excepted, though, put him in a car next to anyone else in this list and I think he'd come out on top. Senna's death robbed us of a fantastic rivalry between the two.

Hill - Good, honest, hard-working driver who gave his all. Thoroughly decent bloke. Flattered by his machinery.

Villeneuve - Made an incredible debut, but aside from that... Also flattered by his machinery, and lucky to be a WDC.

Hakkinen - A late-burner like Mansell, but underrated nowadays nonetheless. His form from 1998-2000 would have put him right at the sharp end in any area. Also the best racing driver I've ever seen under pressure; his three consecutive Suzuka performances with titles on the line were outstanding. Perhaps struggled to motivate himself when he didn't have a title-challenging car - can't be a coincidence that the seasons in which Coulthard was able to beat him were the seasons in which they were never going to win a title.

Alonso  - I think 'Prost-lite' is a fair analysis. He's smart, he's deceptively fast and he's the best driver of his generation. Like Prost, though, he's fallen out with three teams and it's hurt his career. Would be a travesty if he doesn't win a third title before he retires.

Raikkonen - Very fast, but needs the car underneath him. Seems to need the team behind him as well - with Ferrari giving equal focus to Massa, Alonso and Vettel, he's struggled. At Mclaren, at Lotus and in the latter halves of 2007 and 2009, with a team behind him, he was awesome. Still, good enough to be very competitive at 37, so he's definitely still got something.

Hamilton - Fast. Very fast. Increasingly mature, too. Does let his head go down when things aren't going his way, but he's in the best form of his career and it'll be interesting to see how well he drives these next few years, which ought to be his peak.

Button - It's funny. I didn't really think he looked like a WDC even when he was winning the title. It was afterwards, in 2010 and particularly 2011, when he started to suit the role. Since then, he's been a terrific driver, perhaps the confidence his title gave him helping out. Not by any stretch the best driver on this list, but I certainly think he deserves to be on it.

Vettel - I like him a lot. His victory at Monza for Toro Rosso was one of the most impressive I've ever seen. Niggling doubts about his ability to perform when the chips are down and his speed next to Alonso and Hamilton, but then, all drivers have off weekends. Good enough to be world champion again, that's for sure.



#7 D28

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 20:35

Spillage:

"Villeneuve - Made an incredible debut, but aside from that... Also flattered by his machinery, and lucky to be a WDC."

 

A bit of luck is surely involved in many WC winners, but I thought I saw JV win his title with a gutsy move on Michael Schumacher which he made stick. Confirmed yesterday in a clip of the 1997 European Grand Prix.

If any 1 time champion was lucky to win his title if would seem to be James Hunt. I do not begrudge him the title, or any of the other winners, it is what the championship points are for  I just object to  the 1997 champion being singled out as "lucky".



#8 PayasYouRace

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 21:35

OK here goes, and I've had a few beers so the honesty should flow   ;)

 

Stewart Professional but ultimately vain. Equally adept in the driver's seat as in the business of the sport.

 

Fittipaldi Supreme talent wasted after his switch to the family team. A gentleman too.

 

Lauda Straight talking to the extreme, often to his detriment, but an undeniable talent. Interesting sense of humour.

 

Hunt The playboy. He perhaps could have achieved so much more but he did it his way. An intelligent critic of the sport too.

 

Andretti A true legend. While always more at home in the USA, his stint if F1 shows he was a true titan of the sport.

 

Scheckter The invisible champion. A real talent for sure, but he didn't consolidate on his title. Not a bad word to say about him though.

 

Jones Winner by brute force and determination. The original Aussie Grit. Took the chance he needed, but not one of the greats.

 

Piquet A slimeball. For all his talent behind the wheel he lets himself down by being ungentlemanly and petty. Good sense of humour though.

 

Rosberg K The seat-of-the-pants champion. No one else had that natural feel. But perhaps not best applied.

 

Prost A true professional like Stewart, knowing how to win a Grand Prix. Far too political.

 

Senna As talented as he was mad. Poor on track ethics spoil his supreme skill.

 

Mansell Bravery and determination personified. Did things nobody else would, for both good and bad reasons.

 

Schumacher His talent and commitment to the sport spoiled by poor ethics. I'd think no less of him with 2 fewer titles and 20 fewer wins.

 

Hill D Took the opportunity he had with great form. Gentleman and hard worker.

 

Villeneuve J Controversial but effective, threw career away like Fittipaldi yet still shows that the talent is there.

 

Hakkinen Quiet, so let his driving do the talking. Likeable and talented.

 

Alonso Petulance personified, his skill is undeniable.

 

Raikkonen Enigmatic. Hard to judge past success on current form. Cool but a bit too casual.

 

Hamilton Another surpreme talent in a frigile case. Not as mentally strong as he thinks.

 

Button A master of racecraft and feel, let down by the inability to get round problems. Top bloke.

 

Vettel A superb talent flattered by surpreme machinery. Needs a special car to be special.



#9 Atreiu

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 22:30

Mansell; fast, clumsy and lacking the fortitude to sustain season long fights. But was caught in the perfect storm in 1992. I don't think he would have won the title that season had he been paired with any other WDC from my lifetime, at the very least.


Edited by Atreiu, 11 May 2015 - 22:32.


#10 sennafan24

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 22:39

Mansell; fast, clumsy and lacking the fortitude to sustain season long fights. But was caught in the perfect storm in 1992. I don't think he would have won the title that season had he been paired with any other WDC from my lifetime, at the very least.

You really have it for Nige don't you?   ;)



#11 Atreiu

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 23:00

You really have it for Nige don't you?   ;)

 

I admit.

 

I have changed my opinion about many drivers. Many of whom I admire and respect more. But Nige, nah... I just can't.



#12 Jimisgod

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 01:19

  1. Stewart: He is legendary, maybe not to the degree of say a Fangio, although some of his drives have become legend. His skill was undeniable but his results kind of live in the shadow of the other great Briton of the time, Clark, and as the first "political" driver he is sadly maligned by some. The only truly dominant driver of the 70s and probably the best until Prost came about, maybe his finest legacy is preventing the deaths of many of the others named here.
  2. Fittipaldi: What might have been. Possibly the "Alonso" of the earlier generation, he did it all in his youth and then made poor career choices that honestly made him a non factor in his peak years. I gather his focus moved to the US of A after his first two titles though.
  3. Lauda: The "Rat" didn't exactly burst onto the scene like others but his determination to return after the pretty much fatal '76 accident coloured a career of surprising everyone to beat the odds. Only guy to beat Prost until Senna, and probably the defining driver of the period after Stewart.
  4. Hunt: The quintessential playboy, he was a rather unlikely champion in an era of surprise winners (Penske, Wolf, Shadow) I don't think he was ever as dedicated to the sport as Lauda was though. He has become the hedonist archetype that appeals to the Monaco crowds.
  5. Andretti: Very underrated on the European side of the pond, he was still very quick and had he committed himself to Europe he may have taken more titles. His title is unfortunately shadowed by Peterson, who embodied the kind of driver European crowds adore.
  6. Scheckter: Unfortunately not the person associated with the late 70s/early 80s Ferrari cars although he did win their only title. I'm not to well versed on his career but he seems to have been only a factor in a couple of seasons and dissappeared not long after his title.
  7. Jones: Like Scheckter, he arrived and left in a quick space of time but was probably more dominant during his brief period in the sun. The first Williams champion, his title has become more of a statement about the arrival of Williams than of Jones.
  8. Piquet: His career was quite a rollercoaster of ups and downs in performance, seemingly having an edge over the young Prost and then dropping off to irrelevance before returning to beat Mansell-mania and falling off again. Unfortunately he was anything but a gentleman and is no one's favourite Brazilian champion.


#13 George Costanza

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 02:00

 

It would be great to get perspective on how champions are seen throughout the world by different people.

 

 

How about a list of all recent champions with their personality and character defining traits in your own words.

 

 

Be as critical as you like (yet polite!) as for every negative listing by one, a positive trait will be stated by another.

 

 

And please keep to actual overriding character traits and not a one off thing a driver said or did once.

 

 

I'll start:

 

 

James Hunt - Legitimate craziest party guy champion in F1 history
Niki Lauda - Toughest never give up, no pain attitude champion since Nuvolari.
Alain Prost - "The Professeur". The most calculated thinking champion in F1 history.
Ayrton Senna - Mystic virtuoso poet and F1 recluse. Arguably fastest driver ever and champion with most determination in F1 history.
Nigel Mansell - Fearless, persistent yet genuine drama queen of theatrics.
Damon Hill - Good driver made champion by team - No overriding unique characteristic to me
Jacques Villeneuve - Good driver (not as good as father) made champion by team. No overriding unique characteristic to me.
Hakkinen - Only champion with large enough testes and talent to stick it to Schumacher.
Michael Schumacher - The dirty record book.
Fernando Alonso - No overriding unique character. Prost light? Don't really know what to say. No overriding unique characteristic to me.
Kimi Raikkonen - Mr Monotone. Calmest but possibly the most boring to listen to F1 champion in history.
Sebastian Vettel - The awkward yet likeable Red Bull man child to me.
Jenson Button - Safest champion. Yet also the most unspectacular/boring F1 champion in history as argued by some? 
Lewis Hamilton - Groomed for greatness, arguably fastest driver of modern era, let down by weak, impressionable and fragile mind.
 
 
I know I have been warned in the past of pitting fans of one driver against fans of another. This was never my intention. I am genuinely interested in what are seen by fans around the world as the defining character traits of champion drivers. Perhaps this will allow us to appreciate drivers who we don't know much about, a little more.

 

 

I'll say... you seriously must dislike Schumacher.



#14 teejay

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 02:17

My words

 

 

Stewart - Great with words, even greater in car. Has a massive ego but backed that up.

 

Fittipaldi - One of the sports genuinely nice guys. Incredibly fast too. Threw away chances for more success to back the family.

 

Lauda - Literally went through hell for the sport he loves and deserves all his success.

 

Hunt - So very good, but cared so very little. Lived life the way he wanted.

 

Andretti - Pound for pound arguably the best racing driver ever - won at anything he touched. Supreme class too. Legend.

 

Scheckter - I really don't have much to say. Brief moment in the spotlight.

 

Jones - Aussie pride and all, but I don't really rate him that highly.

 

Piquet - A rude bastard, petty. But had skill and raced hard.

 

Rosberg K A different breed of champion. Consistent and pacey, but never quite the fastest.

 

Prost - Senna battles cementing legendary status forever. But he was brilliant.

 

Senna - The king. His insane approach to absolute passion drove him and the sport through the stratosphere. Had to win, and wasn't afraid to get gritty to do it. But massive heart, cared for so many. Left far too early.

 

Mansell - Knew how to talk up his difficulties, but was fast and a great racer.

 

Schumacher - Supreme talent and will. Will always be tainted. He had no reason to be dirty and I cant ignore it.

 

Hill D - Son of a champ, who got no benefit from the name. Worked hard for his success. VERY unlucky to not have 2.

 

Villeneuve J - F1 only fans rag on him, but he was stupidly quick. Indy and F1 champ. Chased dollars with BAR and buried his career.

 

Hakkinen - From the brink of death to 2 titles. Humble quietly spoken guy with huge skill.

 

Alonso - Overall best driver of the last decade? Fast, fighter, capable of dragging a car up the field. Can't believe its been 10 years since title 1. Hated him post 07, but respect him these days.

 

Raikkonen - Fastest guy in the world for a few years. Hard to tell if he is just a cold Finn or genuinely doesn't care like he should. Later years will impact his legacy.

 

Hamilton - The most enigmatic driver of our generation. Brilliantly fast. Aggressive. A proper racer. But his mind got in the way for too long. Could almost have 4 titles by now. My favourite driver since he started.

 

Button - A nice guy, fast on his day but not tier 1 fast. Inability to deal with a car that isn't ideal is a huge weakness. McLaren issues flattered him against Lewis.

 

Vettel Is it him, or Newey? Dan put a massive dent in his image in 2014. Rebuilding that atm by his current performances.



#15 SilverArrow31

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 03:02

Can I just say that anyone calling Schumacher dirty must also acknowledge that Senna was exactly the same, just had less opportunity to do it.



#16 Wingcommander

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 04:32

Can't really rate the 70's drivers.

 

Piquet: seemed awfully fast while at Brabham. After that never quite lived to the expectations. 

 

Rosberg: the street fighter, maybe the last of his kind. For most of his career he was hampered by the equipment. Perhaps a bit underrated because of that. Never adapted to the understeering McLaren.

 

Prost: one of the greatest. Fast, consistent, smart. Could have handled the situation with Senna better. 

 

Senna: a unique character. Maybe the most talented driver ever? Had an incredible (almost unhealthy) will to win. His speed was just unbelieveable.

 

Mansell: a conflicting character. In the car he was capable of challenging anyone, outside the car he was one of the most ridiculous moaners I've seen in the sport. 

 

Schumacher: of all of these drivers maybe the only one who could have challenged and beaten Senna on pure speed. Maybe. The record books say a lot. Just like with Senna, some of his performances were just unbelieveable.

 

Hill: got lucky because of Häkkinen's contract troubles. Was capable of good performances but IMO not really a worthy champion. His lack of talent was painfully obvious while fighting against Schumacher.

 

Villeneuve: the grunge guy. Was a breath of fresh air with his attitude. I'll never forget Jerez '97 but honestly he never quite lived up to the hype.

 

Häkkinen: on his day he was capable of challenging Schumacher. A bit too inconsistent. Probably the only rival who Shumacher really respected, and that says a lot about his class on and off the track.

 

Alonso: always fast, every lap, every race, every season. Hasn't been able to convert that to more success.

 

Räikkönen: he was supposed to be the fastest. But it hasn't looked that way since he left McLaren.

 

Hamilton: had an incredible start to his career, and maybe he hasn't quite lived up to the expectations after that. Still, he is one of the best drivers of his generation.

 

Button: seemed like a has been before suddenly lucked in to a championship. Has actually raised his profile after that.

 

Vettel: maybe he got his 4 titles a bit too easily. IMO he still has a lot to prove. But a guy who won in a Toro Rosso can't be anything but a really good driver. 



#17 teejay

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 05:53

Can I just say that anyone calling Schumacher dirty must also acknowledge that Senna was exactly the same, just had less opportunity to do it.

 

No, they don't actually. This is why it is called in YOUR words. When you write yours, feel free to include that at length. Look forward to reading it.



#18 ClubmanGT

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 06:12

Schumacher - Supreme talent and will. Will always be tainted. He had no reason to be dirty and I cant ignore it.

 

Hill D - Son of a champ, who got no benefit from the name. Worked hard for his success. VERY unlucky to not have 2. 

 

I was going to ask your opinions on exactly how fair the FIA ban handed out to Schumacher and Benetton in 1994 was but reading your comments about Hill, I'm not going to bother. Hill was bloody lucky to get one, Mansell-esque World Championship that he almost lost to his rookie team mate. 



#19 teejay

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 06:26

To be fair I was quite young in 94 so my thoughts on the ban simply revolve around reading history - but I have vivid memories of sitting in my parents lounge room watching Adelaide unfold as the time zone meant it was live.

 

I make no judgements for whether contact was intentional or not, but had that wishbone not bent, he would have 2. That was all.

 

I would ask who you go for, but given your avatar "I'm not going to bother"

 

:)

 

As I said, feel free to cover your thoughts when you write out your list.



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#20 ClubmanGT

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 06:50

To be fair I was quite young in 94 so my thoughts on the ban simply revolve around reading history - but I have vivid memories of sitting in my parents lounge room watching Adelaide unfold as the time zone meant it was live.

 

I won't dispute he was prone to the odd Dick Dastardly move, but I suspect the move was out of desperation and possibly frustration at having gone through what he'd been through with the FIA that season and being on the verge of seeing it all slip away. Although I'm not sure, he admitted the 1997 incident was a rush of blood to the head so I'm not sure what he gained by pretending the 1994 was a racing incident, so maybe it was just that. You could also argue that Hill could have been patient not tried to overtake an obviously limping Schumacher as soon as he ran across him.

 

Really, the whole 1994 season was a disaster zone. The sport and most people in it would probably rather the calendar clicked over to 1995 on December 31st 1993 and I'd be wary of drawing too many conclusions about how anyone acted as a result of it. 



#21 RedBaron

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 07:21

I realised I turned these into mini driver reviews as well WDC comments, but I spent time writing it so I won't delete it.

 

 

Senna - Mesmerizing, a legend. Stories will be told of him forever, the man who wrestled and tamed machines. His death allowed him to avoid the same levels of criticisms Schumacher receives for his sometimes brutal on track behaviour.

 

Schumacher - The Greatest. A fighter, win at all costs. Looked upon unfairly by the press and some fans for his ruthlessness. Nothing takes away from his utter domination of the sport.

 

Hill - Talented, but a step down from the greats.

 

Villeneuve - Outside Williams 96/97 he rarely ever performed, nearly lost the 1997 WDC in a far superior machine. Said he'd retire if Jenson Button beat him in 2003 at BAR. Button destroyed him.

 

Hakkinen - A superb talent, extremely fast and Schumacher's greatest opponent.

 

Alonso -  One of the all time greats. Was on course to some what mirror Schumacher's career (2x Benetton back to back WDC) but Ferrari let him down. The record books look empty under his name in comparison to talent.

 

Raikkonen - A giant star that never quite shined as brightly as it should have.

 

Hamilton - Groomed to win, stunningly fast and exceptional race craft. He is his most fierce rival and enemy at times.

 

Button - An excellent talent. Handed a stunningly competent car at last and he did exactly what he needed to do to win the WDC. In the right car he beat Hamilton on race day. Not know for outright speed, but you don't need to be fast on 1 lap to win a race.

 

Vettel - Very very quick. Appears to have been flattered by a dominant RedBull and a front running Toro Rosso, but thrashed his team-mates in the same machines. Got a reality check in 2014 and in 2015 has come back a better man.  


Edited by RedBaron, 12 May 2015 - 07:24.


#22 Jimisgod

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 07:23

I won't dispute he was prone to the odd Dick Dastardly move, but I suspect the move was out of desperation and possibly frustration at having gone through what he'd been through with the FIA that season and being on the verge of seeing it all slip away. Although I'm not sure, he admitted the 1997 incident was a rush of blood to the head so I'm not sure what he gained by pretending the 1994 was a racing incident, so maybe it was just that. You could also argue that Hill could have been patient not tried to overtake an obviously limping Schumacher as soon as he ran across him.

 

Really, the whole 1994 season was a disaster zone. The sport and most people in it would probably rather the calendar clicked over to 1995 on December 31st 1993 and I'd be wary of drawing too many conclusions about how anyone acted as a result of it. 

 

What he'd been through with the FIA was Flavio's doing as that car was pretty much illegal all year. Honesly Tyrrell got a complete DSQ for much less in 1984.

 

Not that it deducts from Schumacher's skill, but he had several cars that were questionable. Then again, so were several recent Red Bulls.



#23 Nemo1965

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 10:31

Niki Lauda: the riddle wrapped in an enigma

 

In my own words: Nemo1965.

 

'Appearances deceive.' That would my the epitaph for Andreas Nikolaus Lauda, (1949) better known as Niki Lauda, triple World Champion, if he would allow me to carve his gravestone. I would do it personally, gladly, with a blunt chisel, because my admiration can not be shunned by blisters on my fingers. Rhetorical question: has there ever been a F1-driver, no, has there ever been a sportsman who's appearance, who's personality, who's image in the public eye has been so multi-fragmented, changed, been put on his head, and back upright again than Niki Lauda? The only who comes close is Muhammed Ali, who went from loud-mouthed Golden Medal-winner, to the slender, attacking rebel actually liked in a perverse way by the racist part of white America, to the conscientious Muslim-objector hated by white America, to the adored by white, liberal and black militant public, to the Parkinsonian icon with which we now have pity.

 

All true, but with Ali one always has to ask: has Ali changed so much during his career or have we changed so much? Wasn't Ali always the same, bar his name, and have we, the outsiders, been constantly focussing and refocussing on his person? That is not say that Lauda has changed so much. It was always there. The intelligence, the humour with the faint smile, the irony, the no-nonsense, the politeness covering up a total-no-bulshitter. It seems that Lauda was always his own best observer. Read his auto-biography Protocol, still the best book about Lauda, about motor-racing in general in my book. Lauda could be dumb, brash, totally crazy like the rest of us... but afterwards he always knew. He could reflect on it, on himself as if he was addressing his naive younger brother.

 

Take his start in motor-racing. Was he really good, in the beginning? No. As he said himself: 'I was an idiot. Horny about racing. Tried to overtake where it was not possible.' Or how he spend money on racing, when he did not have any. The car he raced with - be it a Porsche or a Mini- was his only possession. Crash it once, and his career was gone. He would let the car tune at the best tuners, absolutely top-flight service. And still... it is impossible to know, but even back then it seems he knew what he was doing and that he was doing it stupidly. The judgement about his own actions and the negative judgement was already there, in his head, formulated in his precise, gruff accent. He just could not help it.

 

There is this story about him driving touringcars for BMW. How he arrived an hour early, to set up the pedals, the positioning of the steering. The BMW-bosses were impressed, in sort of an awkward way... Who was this guy? He riddled them even more with his driving. As calculating and analytical Lauda was, around the ring in a touringcar, he was a maniac. There is this story that a photographer set up his camera somewhere at the Nürburgring. Lauda came past, in the words of the photographer: 'The wheels were all pointing in an direction that seemed physically impossible. I was certain he was going to crash. But he didn't. I said to my assistant: pack it up. It would be useless watching and photographing the other cars. It would be like watching grass grow.'

 

The way he entered F1... that was really the way the loathed paydrivers of today came into F1. The Ericcsons, the Chiltons, the Maldonado's.... But then even worse. In 1972 Lauda paid and drove for March F1, then owned by later FIA-boss Max Mosley. They had a terrific driver, Ronnie Peterson, but very, very bad management. Lauda basically had to drive hand-me-downs. He did that very, very badly. Lauda would be two, three or four seconds slower than Peterson in qualifying. He made nill impression. If internet had been there, the social-media based F1 fans would have screamed for his dismissal, for his banishment, for his head!

 

Then March did not offer him an new contract for 1973. They had noticed he was very good in testing, so he could do that. And some F2 (in which Lauda was at least competent). For Lauda it was like a death-sentence. He was dangerously in debt. After the disastrous news, he drove his car to the airport and seriously considered crashing into a concrete pillar. His life was over. He would have to work for forty years and live on the minimum to pay off his debts. Then he thought: 'The only way I can get out of this hole, is by staying in F1 and succeeding.' So to come out of his 'gambling'-debts, he made another huge gamble. Basically, he committed fraud. He got a loan on the house of his grandfather (so on a collateral he did not own, that is fraud). He bought himself into the dwindling BRM-team. He knew that after six months there would a huge problem, because then a 'hole' was waiting for him, financially. There was no alternative. So he did it.

 

End of part 1...


Edited by Nemo1965, 12 May 2015 - 12:27.


#24 sportingcp

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 10:35

Fernando Alonso - The Spanish Samurai



#25 Tsarwash

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 10:54

I'm going to limit myself to one word for each driver, which will of course leave it all open to interpretation, as one single word could never sum up the full character of complex people.

Senna. Guided.
Prost. Calculated.
Gilles. Wild.
Hunt. Fun.
Hamilton. Bling.
Kimi. Insular.
G Hill. Focused.
Alonso. Workrate.
Stewart. Gobby.
Vettel. Bubbly
Hakkenin. Human.
Lauda. Tenacious.
Schumacher. Uncompromising.
Jacques. Over-inflated.
Andretti. Legend.
Mansell. Stubborn.
Button. Decent.
Piquet. Mischievous.

#26 YoungGun

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 10:59

Vettel - Pull my finger :p



#27 milestone 11

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 11:25

Niki Lauda: the riddle wrapped in an enigma
 
In my own words: Nemo1965.
 
End of part 1...

Part 2 please.

#28 Nemo1965

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 12:11

Part 2 please.

 

I will... it takes some time! But I happy with the support. Felt a bit of a show-off after the first part. :p



#29 Timantti

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 12:52

James Hunt - Rockstar.

Niki Lauda - Old man who wanders around the paddock.
Alain Prost -  A true champion in an era where men were men. Big contrast to the current age of F1 which is all about controlling the tyres and engine with no refuelling.
Ayrton Senna - Ted Bundy of F1.
Nigel Mansell - Nobody would care about him if he wasn't British.
Damon Hill - A science experiment gone wrong. They tried to create the perfect driver but instead they created Damon Hill.
Jacques Villeneuve - Stepped out of his father's shadow to the shadow of other drivers on the grid.
Hakkinen - The weird fun loving exchange student who can barely speak the language but whom everyone still loves.
Michael Schumacher - The main villain in every sport movie.
Fernando Alonso - No longer even tries to be liked and has finally embraced his evil nature.
Kimi Raikkonen - Can only be likable if he's fast, so no matter what happens, he'll always be fast.
Sebastian Vettel - The kid who comes to the skiing trip decked in gear that's worth at least $2000 and then beats everyone. **** that kid.
Jenson Button - Like food without salt. 
Lewis Hamilton - Was probably build in a secret marketing laboratory somewhere. Lately has become self aware. 

 

 


Edited by Timantti, 12 May 2015 - 13:05.


#30 sjakie

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 13:32

My try

 

Jochen Rindt

Must have been a fast driver who did his racing as a business. He liked it but he was already looking for his next step, outside the cockpit.

 

Jacky Stewart

Polite, thoughtful, smart, clever. Like Rindt saw racing as a way of earning money. Loved it but was also, like Rindt, looking forward to life off the track

 

Emerson Fittipaldi

As Stewart but only knew racing. Went almost bankrupt outside the cockpit

 

Niki Lauda

After his year with March he knew that he was usually right in making setup changes. So he was (or became) a person wo was very disciplined and who had a very strong mind. It showed in his racing, it showed in his decisions (quitting Ferrari, quiting F1) going against the stream.

 

James Hunt

Fast driver, went for chances which others probably wouldn't do, did make a party of his life off the track. No wonder that his career was relatively short. His life was so intense, there was no space to have a long career in F1 or any motorsport.

 

Mario Andretti

Jack of all trades. Successful in everything he tried and the driver who absolutely loves to race. Therefore he still drives the Indycar two seater. Underrated in Europe.

 

Jody Scheckter

A bit like Jacky Stewart, but less succesfull. Once he became champion the desire to be a driver sizzled out. Very good businessman though

 

Alan Jones

I would compare him to Lauda in a way that he does everything his way. He loved his driving but hated politics and once politics took over in F1 he decide to fly home, only to come back sometimes when the fire was briefly there.

 

Nelson Piquet

Lauda used to call him the Brazilian version of Hunt which he was in a way. He like to party, played awful jokes preferably at Mansell. Knew very well what he wanted and how to get it.

 

Keke Rosberg

"A car needs to be driven as fast as possible all the time, regardless if there is a chance of winning" might have been his motto

 

Alain Prost

"A car needs to be driven as smooth as possible all the time, regardless if there is a chance of winning" might have been his motto. Didn't care if it looked boring, a 1 second win gives the same number of points as a 1 minute win so Always settled for the 1 second win.

 

Ayrton Senna

Made sure that everyone knew that he and only he was the quikest.

 

Nigel Mansell

A race head, but not a particular strategic one, could therefore only become champion by having a car worth two seconds a lap. On the other hand, had luck been on his side in Adelaide in 1986 we would have thought otherwise.

 

Michael Schumacher

Raised or lowered, depending on your opinion, the standards of race strategics

 

Jacques Villeneuve

Never afraid to speak his mind or to try something which each and everyone would not dare to



#31 Dan333SP

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 14:57

.

Senna - Mesmerizing, a legend. Stories will be told of him forever, the man who wrestled and tamed machines. His death allowed him to avoid the same levels of criticisms Schumacher receives for his sometimes brutal on track behaviour.

 

What you say about Senna is true to some extent. He died almost as a martyr, fighting an unwilling car, and the sheer tragedy erased a lot of his negative moments from people's memories.

 

Since Schumi's skiing accident, I've noticed a general softening of opinions about him amongst F1 faithful as well. He didn't go out in the same dramatic, public way as Senna, and with any luck he may still recover, but his situation has caused a lot of people to appreciate his humanity and celebrate his brilliance while overlooking some of the lesser moments of his career.



#32 mzvztag

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 17:20


Alain Prost - A true champion in an era where men were men. Big contrast to the current age of F1 which is all about controlling the tyres and engine with no refuelling.


Except for the fact that Prost won all his titles and all but 4 races with no refuelling and quite often by better managing his tyres and engine than his competitors (Brazil 1987 springs first to mind). Yes, 1980s were in fact way more similar to today than the 1994-2008 era.

But he was a true champion while Senna raped F1 in order to conquer it.

But nice and funny analysis overall!

Edited by mzvztag, 12 May 2015 - 17:34.


#33 Dan333SP

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 17:29

The 1980s- Men were men, Mclaren-Hondas were relevant, turbos could never be abandoned for a return to normally aspirated engines because they were the way forward, and the sparks were real.



#34 aditya-now

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 17:29

 

 

 

And please keep to actual overriding character traits and not a one off thing a driver said or did once.

 

 

I'll start:

 

 

James Hunt - Legitimate craziest party guy champion in F1 history
Niki Lauda - Toughest never give up, no pain attitude champion since Nuvolari.
Alain Prost - "The Professeur". The most calculated thinking champion in F1 history.
Ayrton Senna - Mystic virtuoso poet and F1 recluse. Arguably fastest driver ever and champion with most determination in F1 history.
Nigel Mansell - Fearless, persistent yet genuine drama queen of theatrics.
Damon Hill - Good driver made champion by team - No overriding unique characteristic to me
Jacques Villeneuve - Good driver (not as good as father) made champion by team. No overriding unique characteristic to me.
Hakkinen - Only champion with large enough testes and talent to stick it to Schumacher.
Michael Schumacher - The dirty record book.
Fernando Alonso - No overriding unique character. Prost light? Don't really know what to say. No overriding unique characteristic to me.
Kimi Raikkonen - Mr Monotone. Calmest but possibly the most boring to listen to F1 champion in history.
Sebastian Vettel - The awkward yet likeable Red Bull man child to me.
Jenson Button - Safest champion. Yet also the most unspectacular/boring F1 champion in history as argued by some? 
Lewis Hamilton - Groomed for greatness, arguably fastest driver of modern era, let down by weak, impressionable and fragile mind.
 
 
I know I have been warned in the past of pitting fans of one driver against fans of another. This was never my intention. I am genuinely interested in what are seen by fans around the world as the defining character traits of champion drivers. Perhaps this will allow us to appreciate drivers who we don't know much about, a little more.

 

 

I think this thread is a poorly veiled attempt at worshipping your favourite driver and bashing others, Gold.

 

Pure gold!  :up:

 

Oh, and by the way, bye!  :wave:



#35 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 17:37

The 1980s- Men were men, Mclaren-Hondas were relevant, turbos could never be abandoned for a return to normally aspirated engines because they were the way forward, and the sparks were real.

 

So where the flames!!!!!

 

Henri



#36 mzvztag

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 17:59

Senna was indeed held in high esteem during his lifetime but, of course, his stature grew after his tragic death.

But beside being a very quick and singleminded ruthless and not that seldom bullyish driver, he was also a master in propaganda and self promotion. In fact, he was unprecedented and never approached in the ways he played victim when he was in fact a guilty party, how he manipulatedthe public, even skilfully using apparent nonsense such as faith. He also used his focus on qualifying (something that was not common or important before him) to promote his speed way more than it really deserved (it was also useful for him because by qualifying on pole he would get into the lead and then use all dirty tricks in his book to stay there).

Now as65p (who is an excellent poster) will kill me but what to expect from a huge Piquet Sr. fan like me ;-)

Edited by mzvztag, 12 May 2015 - 18:06.


#37 micktosin

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 18:21

I am beginning to wonder how much some of our opinion about senna being 'the greatest driver', were influenced by his death. If we are talking in a 'larger than life' context, then he is the greatest/fastest driver ever. 

Niki Lauda: the riddle wrapped in an enigma

 

In my own words: Nemo1965.

 

'Appearances deceive.'There was no alternative. So he did it.

 

End of part 1...

Subbed. Good write up. 


Edited by micktosin, 12 May 2015 - 18:21.


#38 sennafan24

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 18:21

He also used his focus on qualifying (something that was not common or important before him) to promote his speed way more than it really deserved (it was also useful for him because by qualifying on pole he would get into the lead and then use all dirty tricks in his book to stay there).

Not this again.

 

Senna's race pace was exceptional. How did he use "dirty tricks" to stay in the lead? Most of the stuff Senna gets criticised for, occurred when he was trying to pass other drivers, not leading from the front.  He made mistakes whilst leading from the front (I.E Monaco 1988, OZ 1989 and Brazil 1990), but there was nothing dirty about it. I recall Potugal 1988 as an example, but not many more,

 

If anything Senna's speed gets under-hyped on this board. 


Edited by sennafan24, 12 May 2015 - 18:22.


#39 mzvztag

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 18:26

Senna's 1985 season was enough to warrant himself a year-long ban from the sport.
Of course he was quick, I don't doubt it, but his speed in races was not as superior as in qualifying.

Anyway, my take on other Champions that I saw racing:

Fittipaldi: I remember him only from his Indycar days. People keep saying he destroyed his F1 career when siding with his brother (and it's most likely true), yet he had a run of 1-2-1-2 in WDC standings 1972-75, way better than vast majority of drivers. One of my heroes, super nice, super driver!

Lauda: The only F1 driver whom I met live, albeit briefly. First one of my heroes in 1970, then turned villain in 1984 (as I supported Piquet since 1980). As party politics is not something commonly associated or discussed in the F1 context, I remember my extreme disappointment when I read, back in 1980s that he votes for right-wing parties (I have no idea if it's true, though :-)). A very brave man but I find hard to agree with most things he say.

Hunt: I did my fair bit of drinking and partying in my youth and see absolutely no reason why it should be a respectable character trait. It's ok to do it but....so what? The same goes for Kimi, I think only people who feel to have missed something in their lives admire Hunt and Kimi for their lifestyle. But Hunt was quick and talented, no doubt.

Andretti: again, I remember him a bit more from Indycar but in late 1970s I was mightily impressed by those black Lotuses and then I found out that I have visited Andretti's birthplace a few times. Always liked him, his versatility and longevity were incredible.

Scheckter: hazy memory, I learned much more about him after he retired. Somebody posted here that he was in fact younger than Villeneuve and it surprised me, I never noticed it, but it's true, if only for a few days or so. Apparently, once his ambition was fulfilled, he needed a superior car to keep him motivated. Not an all time great but deservedly a champion.

Jones: well, I think that he did it on purpose in Canada in 1980!

Piquet: my real childhood hero, to the point of vlind worshipping, yet now I'm not quite sure why :-) But he is indeed very underestimated. He won in 10 different seasons, with vastly different cars, had one of his best seasons aged 38 and was able to win at 39. It's not just luck.

Rosberg: very quick, not universal but deserved his title.

Prost: an arch-enemy of my youth. But now I appreciate him as one of the greatest of all times. His 1986 season, while horribly painful at the time for me, was a masterpiece.

Senna: see above

Mansell: again, an enemy in 1986-87 (I blamed Williams partiality for Piquet losing to Prost in 1986) but brave, spectacular and fast, if a drama queen and living in parallel world quite often.

Schumacher: great, great driver, a flawed genius, the first driver I saw live on track as he came out of the pits first in the warm-up in Monza 1998 (my first live race). But his flaws were standardized by Senna so it's a different thing.

D.Hill: I always had a soft spot for him and his performances in Hungary and Spa (not just in 1997 and 1998) showed that he had what it takes. Much better than given credit for, but I admit to judge him with a slightly more flexible measuring stick.

J.Villeneuve: pity that he went to BAR, he could have done more but is overall on a "standard 1 WDC-winning driver" level.

Häkkinen: great driver who needed to be faced with a formidable challenge to give his best. I enjoyed 1998-2001 immensely, although I supported Schumacher then.

Alonso: the best of the best over the past 10 years and a real all time great, with a peculiar talent for finding himself at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Räikkönnen: not a favourite of mine, seemingly a dull character with the silliest bunch of fans I ever encountered. After his 2003 performance I thought there would be no stopping him in 2004. I also thought the same at the end of 2007. Yet, he is a mistery who always manages to surprise in either way.

Hamilton: a pre-programmed monster who turned human. But one of the top 3 drivers of today.

Button: a not-so-lucky one off, there were less deserving champions.

Vettel: very good, yet I consider his 4 titles the biggest travesty in the history of F1. Won with huge political support for his team with most likely illegal cars. Too early to judge.

Edited by mzvztag, 12 May 2015 - 19:27.


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#40 micktosin

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 18:26

I'm going to limit myself to one word for each driver, which will of course leave it all open to interpretation, as one single word could never sum up the full character of complex people.

Senna. Guided.
Prost. Calculated.
Gilles. Wild.
Hunt. Fun.
Hamilton. Bling.
Kimi. Insular.
G Hill. Focused.
Alonso. Workrate.
Stewart. Gobby.
Vettel. Bubbly
Hakkenin. Human.
Lauda. Tenacious.
Schumacher. Uncompromising.
Jacques. Over-inflated.
Andretti. Legend.
Mansell. Stubborn.
Button. Decent.
Piquet. Mischievous.

Bling wow. Even if you have a problem with it blings (Not a bling person myself). I see no reason how you can relate it to his driving.  



#41 sennafan24

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 18:32

Of course he was quick, I don't doubt it, but his speed in races was not as superior as in qualifying.

If we are debating out-right speed in race trim, you are incorrect. You don't beat Prost 14-6 in 2 car finishes without having tremendous race pace. That is without going into the context behind those stats, which casts Senna in an even more positive light. Senna's flaw in race trim was getting caught up in silly incidents. So, if you want to argue his race craft was not as strong as his qualifying. that is more reasonable.

 

Beating Senna to the flag in straight fights was bloody hard. 

 

Senna's 1985 season was enough to warrant himself a year-long ban from the sport.

How does this add to the initial debate? 



#42 chunder27

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 19:13

Emerson - A very gifted driver, a total legend for breaking the mould and coming to UK.

Stewart - One of the very best, able to drive on eggshells on the lap record, what he did for safety is remarkable.

Lauda - THe most under-rated champion, Calculating, smooth, ruthless and perhaps the first real businessmanlike F1 driver

Hunt - Pure talent, adrenaline in a bag. One hit wonder though which is a shame.

Andretti - Perhaps the most versatile champion, fair, quick in anything and maybe one the last of those.

Scheckter - Worked hard at his craft, was only here to win the title and disappeared as soon as he did, didnt seem to enjoy F1.

Jones - Typical Aussie grit. Supremely talented too, brillant racer, again made poor decisions after he won title.

Piquet - Another under-rated champion, but won in a great car with a designer bolder than the over lauded Newey. His 87 title against MAnsell was his best.

Rosberg -  What he did in that Williams in 82 and 83 ensures he will always be up there, title was perhaps not the best ever, but to beat turbo's. Respect Keke.

Prost - The best ever in my opinion. Smooth, fast, clever, to take on Senna as he did took guts and belief. And to win titles in two cars takes ability too after a year out.

Senna - THe man who changed everything, made hitting cars viable, but also perhaps the most fascinating individual to sit in an F1 car. Faster than most, but too fast for his own good.

Schumacher - Best of his time and had no real rivals. THey were taken away from him. Overly aggressive in my view, enjoyed little competition at Ferrari and tainted career with comeback.

Hill - A triumph of will over circumstance. Should have been double champion were it not for Schuey, and to do that in 94 is amazing. Rather tainted later years.

Villeneuve - Most exciting thing in F1 for years, was amazing initially, por thereafter but never gave up. Shame his mouth was bigger than his talent.

Hakkinen - Another who goes largely unrecognised in my eyes. Had the speed of a Senna and the will to take on and beat the best funded team in F1. Funny guy too, and also very fair on track, unlike his peers.

Alonso - Proved again Ferrari and Schuey could be beaten with a new approach. Fearless, commitment unrivalled and simply masterful at times. Wayward since but still the best.

Raikkonen - A deserved winner, a brilliant story people forget with Mx V this year, Kimi did the same pretty much. Flashes since, but such a misery I couldnt care less.

Hamilton - The path was always there, perhaps a trifle lucky to win, but certainly unlucky since. Then he got in a Merc and dominated. Image needs work.

Vettel -  THe great enigma. 2014 proved he is human, very human. the years before proved Newey was great at packaging. Bot much more but 2015 is giving everyone hope.

 

Left out Mansell - Very fast, uterly determined, but Dear God man shut up, you had it easy.

Button - Peopls champion and took advantage of a great car, but no less than deserved after hard toil in BAR. Proven package, fair, and one of the best passers int he business!


Edited by chunder27, 12 May 2015 - 19:14.


#43 Graveltrappen

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 19:28

I remember in the 98-99 period there being lots of talk of McLaren offering Villeneuve a drive, but it never came to fruition and then Jacques became regarded as a money-grabbing bit of a joke after all the false promises from the early BAR days... it's not really a shame as he's retired with buckets of cash and the one WDC to his name, but he could have left a better legacy... He's still not regarded as being anywhere near as good as his dad, despite the 97 title being in the bag.

Hakkinen for me was superb, and the 98 season was awesome, however the car was also beyond superb... And flattered Mika too. In 99 he tried his best to throw away a title gifted to him by schimachers broken leg. And then after 99 it all began to undo for him. Nobody ever tempted him back, would have been good to see him in the BMW Williams instead of Ralf.

#44 Nemo1965

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 19:45

Niki Lauda: the riddle wrapped in an enigma

 

In my own words: Nemo1965.

 

Part 2: His own Ponzi-scheme

 

'Madness. The situation forced my hand, to risk it all. I got lucky, but today I would not do it again like that. Would I have to make the same decision again, I probably would not have become a racing-driver at all. The chance to make a career out of motorsport, to be a success, is so unbelievable small, that it is madness to lend money to force your chances.'

 

Thus spoke Niki Lauda to Herbert Völker in 1977, not long after he won his second world-title, not long after he had left Ferrari, the team that had made his career. Or had it? For the book Protocol, written together with Völker, Lauda had revisited the time he stood on the bring of personal and financial disaster. He had borrowed 2,5 million Austrian shilling for a place in the March F1 and F2 team. In F2 Lauda was competent, in F1 Lauda was a failure, the car too, the team too, but there was no sign at all of a good driver in a bad car. The outside-world could only have concluded that toothy Austrian was an example of the Peter Principle: in the end, everyone gets promoted to a level he can't handle. For Lauda, it seemed, that level was F1.

 

In touringcars, however, everyone admitted, he was excellent. Lauda drove everything that... well, drove. He could earn up to 10.000 Deutschmark if he won a race... which he did, often. Unfortunately, most of his earnings went to pay his debts... So when March did not offer him a place in their F1 team for 1973, Lauda's despair was understandable. He had to establish himself as a F1 driver, one that got paid to drive, otherwise, otherwise... the alternative was unthinkable.

 

So Lauda approached 'Lord' Louis Stanley, the arrogant and often comical conceited teamboss of the dwindling F1 team BRM. Imagine the current F1 team Williams between 2009-2013, and you get the picture.  A once great team, slowly slipping back. Lauda sort of suggested he could perhaps get sponsorship from the Raiffeisenkasse, if he got a contract at BRM. Lauda tested for BRM... impressed Stanley. And they signed a contract. Lauda would sponsorship-money and would get price-money, the deal was like that. Of course Lauda had no sponsor, because he had not managed another credit from his so called sponsor. So Lauda made a tiny-weeny-change in the arrangement. He made the team agree that he would pay his sponsorship-installments shortly after pay-outs from the team to him. So... BRM would pay Lauda 1000 dollars for place X at the Grand Prix of Y... And a day later Lauda would pay BRM a 1000 dollars as 'the sponsor'.

 

In other words: Lauda had become his own Ponzi-scheme, an embezzlement in which you pay the 'profit' of the next person you know to lure into your game to the guy that got YOU in the game in the first place. Except for Lauda the guy just above him in the Ponzi-scheme was himself... Of course halfway the season, there would be a huge problem, because the price-money in no way was comparable with the money Lauda had to pay. Every race, his 'sponsors' reached a larger deficit. Lauda had not really jumped the abyss, he had only pushed the abyss a couple of months forward...

 

Luckily, Lauda had not just sat back in amazement when Peterson had trounced him the season before. He had analysed Petersons style, had looked where he got a tenth there and a tenth there. Lauda had learned. He had also learned that talking sweet to your teamboss brought you no further. Peterson would drive as fast as he could, even if the car was scheisse, which is '****' in German. Lauda thought: 'It is better to have an argument with your boss so he will put energy in making the car better.' 

 

So the Lauda of 1973 was a different person than that of 1972. For the public perhaps he was still a pay-driver... say, a Maldonado... someone with some talent, but also someone who would disappear when his money or that of his sponsors ran out... For the BRM team Lauda was something like a piece of furniture. He got the leftover-car, the left-over tyres, the left-over oil... It could not deter Lauda. He took the lemon he was given, and tried to make lemonade out of it. By now, he was so savvy, so technically smart, he could. He would get the lemon, make lemonade out of it by out-qualifying his two teammates (yes, the BRM-team fielded three cars!), of course he would then lose the car, get another lemon, squeezed it again, got another lemon...

 

Slowly but surely, BRM started to notice the 'Benjamin' of the team was actually their best driver. In Monaco Lauda qualified high up and drove around in third place for a while. Someone in Italy noticed. Lauda finished fifth in Zolder, Belgium, where almost everyone - except the dominant world champion Stewart - crashed out of the race on the crumbling asphalt of the track. Lauda led a race in the rain, in Mosport, in Canada. 'A grotesque race,' as Lauda would call it himself. Any other driver, certainly today, would have scooped all the honour, all the credit to himself. Lauda said: 'Nah. It were the Firestone-rain tyres that were so much better than the Goodyears of the others.' Lauda knew it, when he was driving past everyone in the rain like he was God. 'Hey, why is everybody driving so slow?' It was funny, it was awe-inspiring for the outsiders... but Lauda knew exactly what was going on.

 

He did not win that race, but he had already won his outrageous gambit. Enzo Ferrari had seen his race in Monaco, his adjudante Luca di Montezemelo contacted Lauda's manager, his nephew, Eugene, in his crammed office in Vienna. 'Ferrari called', Eugene said, one day, when Lauda came in. Eugene always said that. Or Lauda would always say: 'Has Ferrari called yet?' And Eugene would say: 'No, there was a problem with the telephone-line' or nonsense like that. So that day that Eugene said: 'Ferrari called,' Lauda responded: 'Oh really. What did he say? That he is going to throw everybody out and sign the great Nikolaus Lauda?'

 

Well, sort of. Lauda understood from the excitement of Eugene that Ferrari HAD called. They WERE interested. And it did not take long for Niki to sign a contract with Ferrari. The fact that he already had signed a new contract with BRM, with Louis Stanley, for the next season, one in which he would paid to drive in place of vice-versa, was not really a problem. The lawyers of Marlboro - so BRM's sponsor - said to Lauda he should not worry. BRM, you see, had not paid Lauda his price-money for several months. You know, the price-money that Lauda used to sent poste-retour to BRM as sponsorship-payments. Lauda had leapfrogged the abyss. His Ponzo-scheme, of which he was both embezzler and embezledee, had worked.

Lauda was free.

 

End of part 2.


Edited by Nemo1965, 12 May 2015 - 19:52.


#45 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 20:35

Not this again.

 

Senna's race pace was exceptional. How did he use "dirty tricks" to stay in the lead? Most of the stuff Senna gets criticised for, occurred when he was trying to pass other drivers, not leading from the front.  He made mistakes whilst leading from the front (I.E Monaco 1988, OZ 1989 and Brazil 1990), but there was nothing dirty about it. I recall Potugal 1988 as an example, but not many more,

 

If anything Senna's speed gets under-hyped on this board. 

 

 

I think there is a typo involved here: 

 

make the original message you reacted on read like:

 

He also used his focus on qualifying (something that was not common or important before him) to promote his speed way more than it really deserved (it was also useful for him because by qualifying on pole he would get into the lead and then DID NOT HAVE TO use all dirty tricks in his book to stay there).

 

That makes much more sense to read and comes closer to the actual situation as it was.

Personally I want to add to that (modified by me) observation that I do agree with it but that I think Senna had another aim with this qualifying hype as well: Showing off his speed in order to demoralize the opposition in advance, make them wonder what in the hell they could do to stop him. Giving the opponents the impression they were up for a fight they would loose anyway.

As far as I'm concerned one of the innocent  manners of intimidation he used, nothing wrong with that in my book.

 

Henri


Edited by Henri Greuter, 12 May 2015 - 20:38.


#46 mzvztag

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 20:45

Henri,
You wrote my post better than me, it indeed makes more sense your way, now when I think about it.

Although there are "original" examples as well: Spain 1987, for example. That was dirty from the lead.

Edited by mzvztag, 12 May 2015 - 21:52.


#47 D28

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 20:48

I remember in the 98-99 period there being lots of talk of McLaren offering Villeneuve a drive, but it never came to fruition and then Jacques became regarded as a money-grabbing bit of a joke after all the false promises from the early BAR days... it's not really a shame as he's retired with buckets of cash and the one WDC to his name, but he could have left a better legacy... He's still not regarded as being anywhere near as good as his dad, despite the 97 title being in the bag.
 

At the time I was disappointed to see JV leave Williams for the BAR quest, but perhaps his options were somewhat limited. His WDC was the last title for Williams, they won again but not till 2001. He might have won a few more races but not another WDC. 

Every title and most races between 1998 and 2004 were won by McLaren or Ferrari and I understood both teams were not an option for him. Ron Denis's pristine standards for drivers appearance and clothing would have been totally removed from JV's habits (Dyed hair anyone) This is what I recall  from 98-99.

 

I don't really understand the negative assessment of his career and legacy by many commentators. Clearly he was not competing with his dad  Who would be reckoned to be as good as Gilles Villeneuve? not too many.

 

On this side of the Atlantic his Indy win and CART title put his legacy is very good shape. He assuredly did not have superior equipment in 1995, as he had to defeat Al Unser and Team Penske for his title.

So his titles in both top tier open wheel series, along with shared or individual F1 rookie records, 11 F1 victories, not too shabby a legacy IMO. Plus he seems totally satisfied with his career, maybe we should be too.



#48 sennafan24

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 20:52

 

He also used his focus on qualifying (something that was not common or important before him) to promote his speed way more than it really deserved (it was also useful for him because by qualifying on pole he would get into the lead and then DID NOT HAVE TO use all dirty tricks in his book to stay there).

 

That makes much more sense to read and comes closer to the actual situation as it was.

Personally I want to add to that (modified by me) observation that I do agree with it but that I think Senna had another aim with this qualifying hype as well: Showing off his speed in order to demoralize the opposition in advance, make them wonder what in the hell they could do to stop him. Giving the opponents the impression they were up for a fight they would loose anyway.

As far as I'm concerned one of the innocent  manners of intimidation he used, nothing wrong with that in my book.

 

Henri

That would indeed make more sense.

 

Your point about qualifying is also interesting. You are probably correct, as there is that story about Senna expressing joy at SPA 1988 qualifying, where Prost could not believe he was not pole, and was meant to be in quite a state over it. That would comply with your theory.



#49 aditya-now

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 20:52

At the time I was disappointed to see JV leave Williams for the BAR quest, but perhaps his options were somewhat limited. His WDC was the last title for Williams, they won again but not till 2001. He might have won a few more races but not another WDC. 

Every title and most races between 1998 and 2004 were won by McLaren or Ferrari and I understood both teams were not an option for him. Ron Denis's pristine standards for drivers appearance and clothing would have been totally removed from JV's habits (Dyed hair anyone) This is what I recall  from 98-99.

 

I don't really understand the negative assessment of his career and legacy by many commentators. Clearly he was not competing with his dad  Who would be reckoned to be as good as Gilles Villeneuve? not too many.

 

On this side of the Atlantic his Indy win and CART title put his legacy in very good shape. He assuredly did not have superior equipment in 1995, as he had to defeat Al Unser and Team Penske for his title.

So his titles in both top tier open wheel series, along with shared or individual F1 rookie records, 11 F1 victories, not too shabby a legacy IMO. Plus he seems totally satisfied with his career, maybe we should be too.

 

And mind you, that was still the real CART, and not the travesty that goes now under the Indycar flag.

 

Jacques has the distinction in being the last Williams WDC and the last CART champion. In terms of his allround capability I would not for one second diminish Jacques' achievements - he has shown his worth in more categories on both sides of the Atlantic than most current F1 drivers even care to know.



#50 garoidb

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 20:53

At the time I was disappointed to see JV leave Williams for the BAR quest, but perhaps his options were somewhat limited. His WDC was the last title for Williams, they won again but not till 2001. He might have won a few more races but not another WDC. 

Every title and most races between 1998 and 2004 were won by McLaren or Ferrari and I understood both teams were not an option for him. Ron Denis's pristine standards for drivers appearance and clothing would have been totally removed from JV's habits (Dyed hair anyone) This is what I recall  from 98-99.

 

I don't really understand the negative assessment of his career and legacy by many commentators. Clearly he was not competing with his dad  Who would be reckoned to be as good as Gilles Villeneuve? not too many.

 

On this side of the Atlantic his Indy win and CART title put his legacy is very good shape. He assuredly did not have superior equipment in 1995, as he had to defeat Al Unser and Team Penske for his title.

So his titles in both top tier open wheel series, along with shared or individual F1 rookie records, 11 F1 victories, not too shabby a legacy IMO. Plus he seems totally satisfied with his career, maybe we should be too.

 

There was a rumour that Renault wanted to recruit him in about 2001 if I recall correctly. That could have led to another WDC opportunity a few years later (but not if Alonso was there too IMO). He did actually do some races for them in late 2004 too.