50 replies to this topic

[FullThrottleF1]

http://www.motorspor...ine-f1-solution

 

I am all for smaller teams having cheaper engines, however I worry that the cosworth would be way of the pace.

[V8 Fireworks]

Excellent!

[anbeck]

I always was in favour of that, it would also make the sport a little less dependent on manufacturers (no existential crisis after something like the Honda-BMW-Toyota-pullout). If Merc or Renault decided to call it a day, F1 would be in serious trouble - which manufacturer would replace them in such an economic environment?

 

But I guess the manufacturers will do everything that those Cosworth teams would not beat any other team... 

[Tourgott]

Awesome!

[Gilles4Ever]

Cosworth supplying cheap engines, done recently, roaring success?

[Jamiednm]

Cosworths V8s would probably be more competitive than the Renault and Honda power units, so RBR/McLaren will veto.

[Rob]

Cosworth supplying cheap engines, done recently, roaring success?

 

It's all very well having cheap, but competitive is nicer.

[Pete_f1]

It would be nice to see an engine in F1 that is lean, green and cheaper. I can't help but think that F1 overstretched itself with the complexity of the currant engines. I don't see any reason why every engine has to be the same. Look at how different the top teams in the WEC go about getting power - flywheel, batteries and super capacitors.

[chipmcdonald]

Wait, an RACE CAR engine made without concern for "road car relevance" or corporate bureaucracy???

 

 

YES.

 

 

Anybody would be an idiot to think it wouldn't be completely exciting for Sauber, Force India or Marussia to show up in 2016 with a V8 or V10.   In fact, said teams would be the darlings of the series.....   

 

I'm sure Cosworth could dust off the files for the V10 and V8's and crank some out in short order.  If that is a threat to the Rube Goldberg Power Units (sounds like a bad 80's new wave band), then let them spend $$$$$ on their tiny displacement and road car relevance.

[Option1]

For anyone who believes the Cosworth teams would do anything other than be lapped and impersonate mobile chicanes, I have a lovely bridge for sale, and some prime waterfront land to go with it.

 

Neil

[kevinracefan]

^with cosworths, sauber, and forceindia could race marussia for last...

[maverick69]

Dust off some XF's, get them running on petrol, turn the boost up a bit........ and Bingo! A powerful, relatively reliable and cheap turbo engine that will compete with most of the V6 turbos.

 

Easy.

 

 

http://www.cosworth....ines/xf-series/

Edited by maverick69, 14 May 2015 - 17:02.

[anbeck]

Cosworth supplying cheap engines, done recently, roaring success?

 

But this time it would probably be a balance of performance regime. So the actual engine competitiveness is of secondary importance, if you can balance it with other things (V8 without rev limiter, no fuel limit, etc...). Even their non-hybrid V6s (should they go with that... I hope!) could probably be balanced in somehow. You could even change that regularly.

[Option1]

Dust off some XF's, get them running on petrol, turn the boost up a bit........ and Bingo! A powerful, relatively reliable and cheap turbo engine that will compete with most of the V6 turbos.

 

Easy.

 

 

http://www.cosworth....ines/xf-series/

Ah ha!  You may have stumbled on Baldrick ... Bernie's cunning plan.  Turn up the wick on some old XF's, plonk 'em in the back of the ahhh, back runners,  kabooommm!!   Bingo, Renault diverts publicity from their own grenades.

 

Neil

[loki]

Tomorrows rumor will be that it's going to be badged as some sort of VW product...

[Rasputin]

Excellent!

Indeed, the alternative engine should be Cosworth's 3.5 V10, just to make certain that it will be more powerful.

[Scotracer]

No, no, no, no.

 

Just as stupid an idea as the split engine regs in MotoGP. It doesn't bolster the grid, it just makes half of the bikes/cars irrelevant. 

 

You cannot and will never equalise them. If a V8 wins, it's too off the leash, and if a V6 wins, well then it's the turbos innit.

 

For one, and for all.

[ninetyzero]

Wait, an RACE CAR engine made without concern for "road car relevance" or corporate bureaucracy???

 

 

YES.

 

 

Anybody would be an idiot to think it wouldn't be completely exciting for Sauber, Force India or Marussia to show up in 2016 with a V8 or V10.   In fact, said teams would be the darlings of the series.....   

 

I'm sure Cosworth could dust off the files for the V10 and V8's and crank some out in short order.  If that is a threat to the Rube Goldberg Power Units (sounds like a bad 80's new wave band), then let them spend $$$$$ on their tiny displacement and road car relevance.

 

Do you ever get bored of reciting the same 'being back V8/10's' guff in EVERY thread? Serious question...

[Lennat]

The biggest issue performance wise would be that a cheaper engine would need more fuel to get the same(ish) power as the hi-tech manufacturer engines. This would mean they would be slower (heavier) at the early stage of the race, but faster at the end, if one wanted them to be fairly equal overall. Could be interesting, but still...

[MustangSally]

The Cosworth in the 2006 Williams was initially competitive and a fairly reliable unit . . . the rest of the car tended to fall apart. 

 

To be fair, the later units were briefed to be extremely low budget and no-frills. And if I recall, the Cosworth teams didn't want to/couldn't pay for the clever mapping and off-throttle stuff during the EBD era. For raw grunt, Cosworth usually delivers. 

 

However, teams like Force India are buying in the whole drivetrain, so Cosworth isn't a solution in itself. 

 

Interesting take by Bernie on a dual formula: the eighth placed team will probably still come eighth . . . even if you gave them the Mercedes car and engine.

[Gyno]

Do you ever get bored of reciting the same 'being back V8/10's' guff in EVERY thread? Serious question...

 

The same can be asked about the V6t brigade, who keep telling us that these new PU are exiting and what ever other crap it is you spew out.

Dont you ever get bored of reciting that same old crap?

[Fatgadget]

Cosworth is now just a name instilled in the annals of motor racing history...just like Lotus and BRM and Coventry Climax and Auto Union etc etc etc......fill in the blanks if you must.

Edited by Fatgadget, 14 May 2015 - 22:34.

[KingTiger]

The biggest issue performance wise would be that a cheaper engine would need more fuel to get the same(ish) power as the hi-tech manufacturer engines. This would mean they would be slower (heavier) at the early stage of the race, but faster at the end, if one wanted them to be fairly equal overall. Could be interesting, but still...

 

They aren't going to be equal. These backmarker engines will be only for teams that are barely subsisting, if they ever get competitive, the manufacturers are going to take off the draconian reigns of their turbos and blow the whole thing up. You think Mercedes is going to stand to be beaten by Force India-Cosworth that's using 160 L of fuel and a 3 L engine when they're limited to 100 L, 3.5 bar and 1.6 L displacement?

Edited by KingTiger, 15 May 2015 - 00:08.

[FPV GTHO]

I don't think it will work. Firstly, the big manufacturers won't let the regs allow a budget engine to outperform their turbo hybrids.

So then if you assume teams like Lotus, Force India and Sauber will run them, they'll just get themself back into the same hole. Let's say these engines are $5m for a years supply instead of $20m, but are half a second slower. Maldonado tells Lotus he and PDVSA are gone if they run the slower engines, so he pays to keep the hybrid. Then Ferrari tell Sauber to run one of their juniors and they'll pay to race him, but they have to keep the hybrids. Now it's just Force India, who have no hope running in the midfield now and risk falling back to teams like Manor and Haas when they enter.

Edited by FPV GTHO, 14 May 2015 - 23:43.

[chipmcdonald]

Do you ever get bored of reciting the same 'being back V8/10's' guff in EVERY thread? Serious question...

 

I don't have a high horse to play with, sorry.

[V8 Fireworks]

Cosworth XE - yes please!

 

[ninetyzero]

The same can be asked about the V6t brigade, who keep telling us that these new PU are exiting and what ever other crap it is you spew out.

Dont you ever get bored of reciting that same old crap?

 

The 'V6 brigade' don't start those conversations though do they?

[V8 Fireworks]

Cosworth is now just a name instilled in the annals of motor racing history...just like Lotus and BRM and Coventry Climax and Auto Union etc etc etc......fill in the blanks if you must.

 

Cosworth still exist!!

 

As do Lotus (cars).

 

[V8 Fireworks]

The 'V6 brigade' don't start those conversations though do they?

 

Do V6 enthusiasts have ears? 

 

 

vs

 

 

Please report, honestly, which is the more captivating lap?   The backmarker Minardi or the race winning Red Bull.

 

The Minardi - hustled on the ragged edge, the razor sharp engine responding at the instant of the driver's command?

Red Bull?  The one that looks and sounds like a glorified GP2 car cruising around despite it being an 'eye of the tiger' qualifying lap (apparently).

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 May 2015 - 18:11.

[Rasputin]

Cosworth XE - yes please!

 

Now that's an idea, Cosworth must have a few dozens of those 2.65 methanol-burning V8s (see, supergreen already there) stashed away somewhere?

 

Give them an intercooler, access to as much methanol as they can possibly guzzle and crank up the boost to 100 Hp more than whatever Mercedes has.

 

That should take care of things in a flash!

[ninetyzero]

Do V6 enthusiasts have ears? 

 

 

vs

 

 

Please report, honestly, which is the more captivating lap?   The backmarker Minardi or the race winning Red Bull.

 

I'm not a 'V6 enthusiast' as that's just hyperbolic bullshit, but I like the sound of the new engines, though they could be better. The sound of the V10's is a little over-rated (and the V8's a lot over-rated). I'm not such a fan of the high-pitched scream, I prefer a lower, growling engine note, a bit like this:

 

 

and even this:

 

 

Different people like different things.

[senna400]

The new idea for the rules are dissappointing, F1 needs to go backwards to go forwards, yes that means ditching the Hybrids and going back to V10's. F1 should not primarily be a testbed for future car advances, that should be reserved for the laboratory, people are just not interested.  The way to fix F1 is not to bring back refuelling the problem is that it's all become rather boring in my view, rather too many buttons on the steering wheel.....oh I mean steering device thingy!  Ditch DRS, it's fake, ditch launch control, it's fake, ditch all the fake aspects...and there are a lot!  Yes the widening of tyres is a very good idea but they should also make the cars wider.  Put far less emphesis on the winged aerodynamics and more on the underbelly of the car, (ground effects). This would allow the cars to follow in the corners just like F1 in the 80's and Indycar now.  There are very few fans who watch F1 for the technology, it's really boring, people want to watch it for the gladitorial aspect, watching powerful, loud, fire-spitting thoroughbred grand Prix cars being wrestled around a challening race track - almost all of that has been lost to money, technology and fake gimicks.  I really do think they need to go back to basics but every time they try and "spice up the show" they change the wrong things.  The rules are really complicated now, stupid phrases like "lap delta" what the hell does that mean??  I've been following F1 for 20 years and "lap delta" means nothing to me.  Tire compound choices strategy are boring as well as fuel saving, fuel saving in F1 is completely wrong, in my view that should only have a place in sports car racing or Le Mans.  The price to pay for making these changes is loosing some manufaturers......great let them go, the value of F1 should not be based on what manufacturers are in the sport, the value should be based on the sporting aspect which is why we all watch it in the first place.

 

As Jacques Villeneuve recently said, Modern F1 is a fake show, the drivers have to toe the line for the sponsors which makes them uninteresting people.  F1 is artificial and because of that people don't respect it anymore, that's why they are turning from the sport.           

Edited by senna400, 15 May 2015 - 18:45.

[V8 Fireworks]

 a bit like this:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?

 

DFVs are OK, but they only rev to 10,500rpm or so and are therefore rather quiet.  No louder than other racing engines.

[ninetyzero]

DFVs are OK, but they only rev to 10,500rpm or so and are therefore rather quiet.  No louder than other racing engines.

 

Since when did the Lotus 97T and Ferrari 412 T2 have DFV engines?

 

And for the record there is nothing wrong with the sound of the DFV...

[V8 Fireworks]

Nothing wrong, but it's " very " quiet as it doesn't rev high.

 

By very quiet I mean it is not louder than lesser non-F1 racing cars; no earplugs are required.

 

Sorry I didn't look closely, you put the picture of a Renault turbo... that sounds fairly bad really.

 

The Ferrari V12 sounds glorious of course.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 15 May 2015 - 18:54.

[ninetyzero]

Nothing wrong, but it's " very " quiet as it doesn't rev high.

 

By very quiet I mean it is not louder than lesser non-F1 racing cars; no earplugs are required.

 

 

You do know that there is more to a nice sounding engine than just decibels right? Just because the DFV doesn't make your ears bleed doesn't mean it's quiet.

 

 

Sorry I didn't look closely, you put the picture of a Renault turbo... that sounds fairly bad really.

 

 

Edited by ninetyzero, 15 May 2015 - 19:04.

[Rasputin]

This.

 

[chipmcdonald]

This.

 

 

 

TRUTH.

 

How anyone can listen to that and not miss it is beyond me.

 

 

THAT is ultimately what F1 should sound like.  A special, unique sound, an impressive one.  Anything else serves no purpose, it may as well be Formula E, at least they're not pretending to be "progressive"....

 

Just listened to Lee Mackenzie talking about her first memories of F1, and it being the sound: she thought she was having a heart attack.   That Formula 1 has so cavalierly discounted the sheer value of such a totally unique and special calling card is complete lunacy. 

 

 

[Rasputin]

TRUTH.

 

How anyone can listen to that and not miss it is beyond me.

 

 

THAT is ultimately what F1 should sound like.  A special, unique sound, an impressive one.  Anything else serves no purpose, it may as well be Formula E, at least they're not pretending to be "progressive"....

 

Just listened to Lee Mackenzie talking about her first memories of F1, and it being the sound: she thought she was having a heart attack.   That Formula 1 has so cavalierly discounted the sheer value of such a totally unique and special calling card is complete lunacy. 

 

 

Some members seem to appreciate this however;

 

 

Wouldn't it be cool to have the old V10-scream together with today's vacuumcleaner-humming in the same race? 

[Felix]

Strategy Group's decision to retain existing V6 architecture has in any event killed of what was in any event a highly unlikely scenario with inherent equivalence imbalances.

[Henri Greuter]

TRUTH.

 

How anyone can listen to that and not miss it is beyond me.

 

 

THAT is ultimately what F1 should sound like.  A special, unique sound, an impressive one.  Anything else serves no purpose, it may as well be Formula E, at least they're not pretending to be "progressive"....

 

Just listened to Lee Mackenzie talking about her first memories of F1, and it being the sound: she thought she was having a heart attack.   That Formula 1 has so cavalierly discounted the sheer value of such a totally unique and special calling card is complete lunacy. 

 

 

 

 

Before F1 got those bellowing loud engines it was a different kind of racing that I miss much more and think to be of a far greater loss than deafening noise.

 

F1 should be about racing, it is not a noise contest otherwise it's about time to rename the series in FN(oise)

Of just about everything in life you can have too much. And for some that can be the case with noise levels. And then it isn't difficult at all to not miss it like you do.

To use your quote as inspiration: It is beyond me that people actually like to be exposed to these tremendous levels of noise and high pictched screaming without having all kind of after effects because of that, during and shortly after such exposures.

 

Henri

[V8 Fireworks]

You do know that there is more to a nice sounding engine than just decibels right?

 

You can go to ANY race meeting and hear loudish V8 or otherwise engines.   Some of these local race meetings are VERY cheap, if not even FREE!!!

 

I went to a cheap event where there were some historic DFV F1 cars running around, nice enough but they were nothing special or amazing to listen too.  I actually preferred the sound of a street driven NSX that went round, with a nice exhaust, myself.

 

What makes F1 special enough for a fan to make effort!?  There needs to be something SPECIAL there - especially given the very, very, very high ticket prices.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 16 May 2015 - 08:46.

[V8 Fireworks]

 

Of just about everything in life you can have too much. And for some that can be the case with noise levels. And then it isn't difficult at all to not miss it like you do.

 

 

People go to top-fuel drag racing and they are AWED.  They rave about the ground-shaking, guttural experience to their friends. It hits you right in the gut - literally!   ..and going to the drag racing is CHEAP.

 

People go to F1 racing, and many of them (opinions posted right here on this board) are BORED.  Surely they won't come back given such a disappointing experience (relative to the very, very high ticket price)!?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 16 May 2015 - 08:54.

[V8 Fireworks]

Some members seem to appreciate this however;

 

 

Wouldn't it be cool to have the old V10-scream together with today's vacuumcleaner-humming in the same race? 

 

That would be excellent!

[Tourgott]

https://www.facebook...43204479189611/

566 voted for "Bring back the noise". And that's an UK based voting. Do the same in Germany and you'll get 99% on this.

 

Or just read these comments: https://www.facebook...?type=2

[Henri Greuter]

 

People go to top-fuel drag racing and they are AWED.  They rave about the ground-shaking experience to their friends.

 

People go to F1 racing, and many of them (opinions posted right here on this board) are BORED.  Surely they won't come back given such a disappointing experience (relative to the very, very high ticket price)!?

 

 

 

Tryto imagine the noise levels of top fuel for the entire duration of a grand prix.

I doubt how many people with a 100% healthy hearing capability will enjoy an entire GP with such noise levels. Only with a massive hearing malfunctioning you'll be able to stand that.

Not very likely that will be a success, let alone be tolerated by local governments

Hearing short bursts of those things is one thing, an entire GP is something entirely different.

 

As for being bored,

again I repeat myself yet another time.

I went to racing in the past because of the racing. The loud noise was a problem for me but I in the past I could defend myself enough to the noise levels of that time. But not anymore after 2000.

I miss the genuine racing of the past most of all, one that didn't need artificial aids to enable overtaking, cars being very loud in order to provide an alternative kind of entertainment (noise) to make up for the lack of real racing.

And since I am not a Rolex wearing yup if in his early sixties with money to throw away, I refuse to go fund Ecclestone and his gang by attending races, even at a time that it has become possible for me to attend events without gettting such because of being exposed to too much noise.

 

Henri

[krod]

Started reading the article, and then saw Bernie's name...

 

Nothing that he says is credible, so it's a fairy tale.

[chipmcdonald]

 

Wouldn't it be cool to have the old V10-scream together with today's vacuumcleaner-humming in the same race? 

 

That would be fine by me.  

 

In reality, F1 shouldn't have mandated cylinders or engine sizes anyhow.  Oh well.

 

 

If they could have made the fundamental of the sound louder and deeper, and then have it rev to 19,000+, and then increase the "ah" vowel note as it accelerated through the middle... and made them as loud as the V10s...Yeah, that would be cool. The way all of that sounds now makes it tend towards sounding like a vacuum cleaner stuck on sucking up a rug, or a two stroke dirt bike.  That can't be changed by increasing revs a little bit. 

 

A Ferrari road car sounds great.  Porsche GTs sound great.  They paled in comparison, in races before the F1 cars came on track on a GP weekend.  When one is trying to sell something, throwing away such a massive differentiator is flat out stupid.

[Rasputin]

Last season of dual engine regulations was 1988, when the FIA figured that a 3.5 atmo should dominate a 1.5 turbo at 2.5 bar absolute pressure. 

The reasoning being that even when 2.5 times 1.5 equals 3.75, it would still not compensate tor the complexity of the turbo installation.

 

They were not eniterly wrong, thinking that nobody would invest too much in a one-season engine, only that Honda did, which created a legend.

 

I think however that a 3.0 V10 would be a pretty even match for the MHPE PU, given they can have free fuel-flow?

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

ToroRosso and Haas have the money. So teams that remain are Marussia and Sauber and ForceIndia. I doubt Sauber and ForceIndia choose Cosworth because of their rivalry with eachother and ToroRosso and Haas (Indeed) but Marussia probably choose Cosworth. So just one team? It won't happen. End.

Edited by RYARLE, 16 May 2015 - 15:35.