91 replies to this topic

[Alan Cox]

If you can put aside the pointless talk of seven-figure sums in the publicity blurb, there may be something of interest to some TNFers in this programme scheduled for broadcast on the 28th May. I know that some footage of Peter Neumark's Lindner/Nocker coupe was shot at Anglesey recently.

http://www.channel4....t-exclusive-car

[Glengavel]

Could be interesting but this bit sounds all too familiar:

 

"Back at Jaguar, as the Lightweight project gets closer to the deadline and the first delivery, the pressure starts to tell. Can Jaguar create automotive perfection, please their billionaire clients and silence the critics?"

[Jack-the-Lad]

Could be interesting but this bit sounds all too familiar:
 
"Back at Jaguar, as the Lightweight project gets closer to the deadline and the first delivery, the pressure starts to tell. Can Jaguar create automotive perfection, please their billionaire clients and silence the critics?"

Yes, the drama must flow, mustn't it?

[RTH]

It seems everyone has a million pounds for a car these days then ???

[drivers71]

I wonder if any mention will be made of Briggs Cunningham? He was Jaguar importer for the NE United States, who raced E-Types with much success and progressively turned two of his cars into 'Lightweights'. He must have helped to convince Jaguar that such a car should be constructed by the factory. One of his cars finished 4th at Le Mans in 1962 (Salvadori/Cunningham). When the factory Lightweights were eventually built, Cunningham raced three of them at Le Mans in 1963 - one of which finished 9th place (Grossman/Cunningham).

[sabrejet]

I wonder if any mention will be made of Briggs Cunningham? He was Jaguar importer for the NE United States, who raced E-Types with much success and progressively turned two of his cars into 'Lightweights'. He must have helped to convince Jaguar that such a car should be constructed by the factory. One of his cars finished 4th at Le Mans in 1962 (Salvadori/Cunningham). When the factory Lightweights were eventually built, Cunningham raced three of them at Le Mans in 1963 - one of which finished 9th place (Grossman/Cunningham).

Cunningham raced E2A, the 'prototype' E, for Walt Hansgen, among others.

[RCH]

I think Cunningham would have been rather disappointed with his lightweights in '63. The first one went well at Sebring but the aerodynamics weren't too clever for Le Mans and they didn't go that well. Low drag coupes would have been better but, to be honest, Jaguar weren't really that interested. The Grossman/Cunningham car was heading for 6th. but had to have a front end rebuild after losing its brakes and going straight on at Mulsanne. Even so 6th. wouldn't have been that good bearing in mind the best Ferrari GTO was second.

[drivers71]

Having watched the two brief clips from the programme tonight, It appears to be mostly about the mystery of the six 'lucky' buyers of the new 'Lightweight' cars, whose identity is secret, rather than any historic significance of the original 'Lightweight' cars. There is a very brief clip of an ex- Cunningham car - on the banking (presumably Montlhery?), along with a recent clip of the Lindner/Nocker Aero Coupe. I'm looking forward to the programme, but prepared to be unimpressed.

[elansprint72]

40 minutes into the programme; it seems like a bit of a PR exercise and no mention of Tata... yet.

 

Nice watch case... nice "suitcase" (my suits would not fit in it). Just saying.

[elansprint72]

58 minutes: " It's not a replica, this is a classic Jaguar." So: the FIA roll cage and Willans harness...   ? 

[cpbell]

58 minutes: " It's not a replica, this is a classic Jaguar." So: the FIA roll cage and Willans harness...   ? 

How many cars at Goodwood are equipped with non-period rollcages and harnesses?  If we're going to be that demanding, there would be hardly any cars at Goodwood!

[elansprint72]

How many cars at Goodwood are equipped with non-period rollcages and harnesses?  If we're going to be that demanding, there would be hardly any cars at Goodwood!

Lord March said that no replicas would be accepted to run at Goodwood, apologies I did not catch the exact time when he said this during the fillum. 

[cpbell]

Lord March said that no replicas would be accepted to run at Goodwood, apologies I did not catch the exact time when he said this during the fillum. 

 

I know, but if your definition of "replica" is "contains non-original rollcage and harness", then vast numbers of cars he does accept would be flouting his rules.

[elansprint72]

I know, but if your definition of "replica" is "contains non-original rollcage and harness", then vast numbers of cars he does accept would be flouting his rules.

Not my definition; did you see the TV programme yet?

 

Money, get away
Get a good job with more pay and you're O.K.
Money, it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team

Money, get back
I'm all right, Jack, keep your hands off of my stack.
Money, it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the hi-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet

Money, it's a crime
Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie
Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a rise it's no surprise that they're giving none away

"HuHuh! I was in the right!"
"Yes, absolutely in the right!"
"I certainly was in the right!"
"You was definitely in the right. That geezer was cruising for a bruising!"
"Yeah!"
"Why does anyone do anything?"
"I don't know, I was really drunk at the time!"
"I was just telling him, he couldn't get into number 2. He was asking why he wasn't coming up on freely, after I was yelling and screaming and telling him why he wasn't coming up on freely.
It came as a heavy blow, but we sorted the matter out."

 

Kind of ironic, eh?

[yasmin]

I would have thought Jaguar would populate the hour with PR for the new XE. Instead "brought to you by Mitsubishi.......", and every break had Kia adverts.
Overall, disappointed, I wanted to see more of the build....less of the drama.

Edited by yasmin, 28 May 2015 - 21:54.

[Philip Whiteman]

Keep on deprecating the car and programme, chaps and perhaps we'll put a hex on the new run of lightweights and make them affordable!

 

Meanwhile, we non-millionaires can continue to drive round in genuine road car originals built at Browns Lane and produced by people who drew their lessons from racing XK120s, C and D Types based on production parts - the things that underpinned the true beauty of Jaguar cars of the 'classic era'. 

 

Matching luggage and all that obsession with perfect detail? What was that all about! 

[mfd]

It's a metric E type

[Hamish Robson]

A total missed opportunity. Little historical information, little about how the recreation came to be and how it was done. Too much "human drama" (poorly contrived bilge), too much of that presenter fella, who I last saw building a classic 'bike VERY SLOWLY on Discovery Shed, asking inane questions and looking excited.

 

That's an hour I'll never get back.

[sabrejet]

An interesting subject transformed into something mundane. Quite a feat!

 

Instead of looking at bespoke suitcases and learning that Man X has a model Bugatti on his windowsill, we could have been treated to soooo much more that would have been of interest/worth etc.

 

Sadly there always has to be an 'angle' doesn't there?

[drivers71]

Disappointed by the programme, but not surprised. My highlights limited to the (knowlegeable?) presenter asking Lord March if he would allow the cars to enter the Revival,  then later, him not being allowed to drive the car.

 

Edit: Why is there an advert for WHAT CAR embedded in my post?

Edited by drivers71, 29 May 2015 - 15:27.

[Allan Lupton]

There's Channel 4 "documentry" for you.

Watching it anyone would think that Jaguar was a purveyor of hand-built motorcars, not the highly successful mass-producer it was.

The one thing I can agree with Lord March on is that these cars are true replicas, inasmuch as they are produced from scratch by the original manufacturor, rather than re-creations or facsimiles.

[dwh43scale]

Disappointing, but perhaps not surprising.

 

Shame the car could not stand on its own without all the marketing fripperies they were thinking up.

 

Wonder how many ever see the road never mind the track ....

[Gary C]

Just for once, I'd like to see a car documentary (on ANY automotive subject) produced in the 'old fashioned' way, i.e. interviews with the people who were there, plus proper library film, nothing more; no sepia toned re-enactments, dramatisations, no fake deadlines to get things done by etc etc. This was once how ALL documentaries were produced, these days they are few and far between....take a bow Mark Craig and Mark Stewart Productions.

[Stephen W]

The Matching Luggage and totally ridiculous watch are just part of the modern obsession with sweetening the pill. Lets face it £1.2 million for a replica is a bit steep to say the least. You could buy several period 'Goodwood elligible' cars for that money.

 

I was delighted with Lord March's comments and as for other cars with roll-cages & harnesses not being allowed shame on those who made the comments. It really is pathetic to try to denegrate a car owner wanting to protect himself whilst racing. 

 

I recorded the programme so I could skip the adverts and in the end only wasted 42 minutes of my time. Lets hope Jaguar don't start making more C and D Types.

[sabrejet]

 Lets hope Jaguar don't start making more C and D Types.

 

XKSS next is my bet. For sure something is on the cards.

 

Though its subject matter is off-topic, if you ever saw Ray Mears' hour-long programme on building a birch-bark canoe (just one very knowledgeable man, explaining what he was doing and why - and very little else), you'll know that the Beeb might have done a far better job of the E-Type 'documentary'.

[Peter Morley]

Lord March said that no replicas would be accepted to run at Goodwood, apologies I did not catch the exact time when he said this during the fillum.

That did make me wonder about Cobra Daytonas, GT*** and so on...

 

Overall I got the impression the programme might have appealed to those who could be tempted by one of the new Lightweights rather than historians.

[cpbell]

Not my definition; did you see the TV programme yet?

 

Money, get away
Get a good job with more pay and you're O.K.
Money, it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team

Money, get back
I'm all right, Jack, keep your hands off of my stack.
Money, it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the hi-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet

Money, it's a crime
Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie
Money, so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a rise it's no surprise that they're giving none away

"HuHuh! I was in the right!"
"Yes, absolutely in the right!"
"I certainly was in the right!"
"You was definitely in the right. That geezer was cruising for a bruising!"
"Yeah!"
"Why does anyone do anything?"
"I don't know, I was really drunk at the time!"
"I was just telling him, he couldn't get into number 2. He was asking why he wasn't coming up on freely, after I was yelling and screaming and telling him why he wasn't coming up on freely.
It came as a heavy blow, but we sorted the matter out."

 

Kind of ironic, eh?

 

 

Sorry, you've lost me.    I watched the programme on Channel 4 at the scheduled time - don't know where you're getting the idea that I haven't seen it, I'm afraid.

[cpbell]

 

 

...and as for other cars with roll-cages & harnesses not being allowed shame on those who made the comments. It really is pathetic to try to denegrate a car owner wanting to protect himself whilst racing. 

 

 

 

I don't know whether your comment was aimed at me or not, but I thought I ought to explain my point of view a little more succinctly - I consider such safety modifications to be nigh-on essential for most historic racing cars and cannot see a case for a vehicle so equipped to be automatically relegated from "original" to "replica".  After all, are we claiming that every so-called "original" has all the engine internals it was given at birth?

Edited by cpbell, 29 May 2015 - 10:22.

[Sharman]

So shallow my feet didn't get wet. Why can't the programme makers realise that the people who would watch such a subject are not your average soap opera fans. I know they are a majority of the TV audience but the word for the rest of us is minority not moronity.

[7MGTEsup]

I blame American chopper/hotrod for this new format of deadlines and drama rather than facts and proper interviews and questions.

[kayemod]

I blame American chopper/hotrod for this new format of deadlines and drama rather than facts and proper interviews and questions.

 

How true, everything with some phony deadline that in real life would be quite impossible, "Now we have to prep and paint this car in one day, that's going to mean an all-nighter!" Any knowledgable viewer would have pissed himself laughing, but I used to really enjoy watching some of the true craftsmanship glimpsed in American Hotrod, even when it should have been obvious to anyone with half a brain that the whole thing was scripted and really rather silly.

[Bloggsworth]

The Daily Mail TV correspondent, in reviewing the programme, said "I'd rather have a Morris Minor." I'm glad I avoided it, I rather thought it would be no deeper than the average puddle...

[Alan Cox]

Can't say I was won over by the presenter, Mark Evans, who, I read, is a former veterinary surgeon who has a penchant for motor cars. Also, I failed to see why Jaguar was 'risking its reputation' by building these cars. OK, there are those who will object to them being given previously unused chassis numbers, but there was no chance, in the 21st century, that they would not have been able to construct a replica almost indistinguishable from the original - any one of a dozen of the top historic racing car preparers could (and can) produce much the same thing. As mentioned by others, it was a case of making a drama where there was none for those who swoon at any talk of a million-pound motor car. As for the artificial tension and anxiety when the Jaguar reps went down to visit the manufacturers of the Queen's luggage to give their seal of approval for the ridiculous suitcase - as if they were going to be disappointed. Complete waste of an hour slot.

[Gary C]

' Why can't the programme makers realise that the people who would watch such a subject are not your average soap opera fans. I know they are a majority of the TV audience but the word for the rest of us is minority not moronity.'

  Blimey, I reckon you're going to love my Lotus 72 dvd then!

[backfire]

I enjoyed the programme. Yes there were some annoyances and I agree about the silly suitcase and customary deadline dramas, although thought Mark Evans was OK. I think it's a bit naive to judge these programmes from an anorak ? enthusiast point of view, they have to pander to a much wider audience to get workable viewing figures. We should be grateful to get these programmes at all. I agree with kayemod that American Hotrod was actually very interesting and gave an interesting insight.

Personally if I had a million to spend on a competition E Type, I would go for one of CMC's amazing Low Drag replicas.   

[kayemod]

 

  Blimey, I reckon you're going to love my Lotus 72 dvd then!

 

Only if it features the big lump of concrete I was surprised to find inside a "used" 72 nose in the Hethel pattern shop for repair, the Lotus equivalent of fitted luggage I suppose.

[Sharman]

' Why can't the programme makers realise that the people who would watch such a subject are not your average soap opera fans. I know they are a majority of the TV audience but the word for the rest of us is minority not moronity.'

  Blimey, I reckon you're going to love my Lotus 72 dvd then!

 

I'll let you know when I get the free review copy
 

[Gary C]

oh will you ??

[RS2000]

The presenter was actually quite good in the Quest programmes on building a Westfield, a Cobra - inspired kit car, a plane etc. He seemed to be largely under someone  else's control in this one and didn't excel.

 

The paint issue was what underlined that this was nothing about the original cars. Neither the concept or the execution in period would have tolerated that weight of paint. I don't suppose the programme makers even understood how it was that the original cars came to exist (the almost ludicrous bodywork  "freedoms" under Appendix J Group 3 of up to 31.12.65.) so were in no position to explain in even simple terms. 

[Alan Baker]

Disappointing, but perhaps not surprising.

 

Shame the car could not stand on its own without all the marketing fripperies they were thinking up.

 

Wonder how many ever see the road never mind the track ....

None of them will see the road as they are not road legal. These are new cars built to exact 1963 specs so do not comply with modern regulations for road use, they are intended for track use only.

[Rob Miller]

So why do they need suitcases?

[john aston]

To look good at some oligarch's garden party? One's unfeasibly young female companion  can then change for dinner and the son et lumiere .....

[Slurp1955]

So why do they need suitcases?

In case they sell one to a FIFA Executive.

[ianselva]

I can't say I was disappointed as the programme turned out more or less as expected with the fake urgency and drama. Especially when most of the attention appeared to be about the paint finish and the suitcase.

I was surprised that they should build a run of  Lightweights and not Low Drag coupes which would have been far more distincive. To the average man in the street they would have looked just like a run of the mill over- restored E type.

[cpbell]

I can't say I was disappointed as the programme turned out more or less as expected with the fake urgency and drama. Especially when most of the attention appeared to be about the paint finish and the suitcase.

I was surprised that they should build a run of  Lightweights and not Low Drag coupes which would have been far more distincive. To the average man in the street they would have looked just like a run of the mill over- restored E type.

Interesting view - I'd have thought the low-drag would be equally as confusing for the layman.

[Sharman]

Added to which it was never a production car purely experimental but  built up from a production E type .not a lightweight which came later.

[BRG]

I didn't think it was a bad programme - all a bit of free advertising for Jaguar - but quite interesting.

 

I remain confused about why Jaguar have built these cars apparently at a loss, thereby subsidising their purchase by six presumably poverty stricken millionaires in need of a handout!

[mfd]

Just an opinion but I really found the essence of the programme to be tacky - all this "super rich" nonsense. Again typical of the C4 documentary style to summarise after each ad break.

 

Here's a few examples of the paradoxical

 

Banging on about a £1m car built perfectly, panel fit etc. Was this the case in 1963?

 

Perfect paint applied overnight in a rush to meet the deadline...as if you'd want a client to know that!

 

The engine, carefully built & I daresay on a dyno & blueprinted, then at the shakedown talking about a temperamental race tuned motor being difficult to coax into life.

[David Birchall]

I think I will give this a miss (as if we will get it in Canada anyway) and settle down again with Philip Porter's excellent "Ultimate E Type" . I just ordered his history of 4WPD to go with it...

[Alan Cox]

I think I will give this a miss (as if we will get it in Canada anyway) and settle down again with Philip Porter's excellent "Ultimate E Type" . I just ordered his history of 4WPD to go with it...

Two really fabulous books, David. You will really enjoy the 4WPD biography