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Will customer cars ruin F1?


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Poll: Customer cars: the ruin of F1 (207 member(s) have cast votes)

Will customer cars ruin F1

  1. Yes (88 votes [42.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.51%

  2. No (104 votes [50.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.24%

  3. F1's dying anyway so I don't care and I'm going to watch the WEC right now (15 votes [7.25%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.25%

If yes: why? (multiple choice)

  1. It destroys the concept of F1 being a constructors championship (78 votes [25.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.74%

  2. It will give manufacturers more power (58 votes [19.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.14%

  3. It will drive smaller teams out of the sport (57 votes [18.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.81%

  4. I didn't answer yes (110 votes [36.30%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.30%

If no: why? (multiple choice)

  1. It's better than 3rd cars (59 votes [19.47%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.47%

  2. The grid should be full of competitive cars (61 votes [20.13%])

    Percentage of vote: 20.13%

  3. It would ease the burden of the smaller teams (82 votes [27.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.06%

  4. F1 should be more like a spec series (8 votes [2.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.64%

  5. I didn't answer no (93 votes [30.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.69%

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#101 redreni

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 16:04

I voted "yes", but not entirely for the reasons the OP provided as options in the poll.

 

First, although F1 had customer teams for the first 30-odd years, for most of that time it was basically an almost entirely European championship and it was on an entirely smaller scale than it is today. It had yet to become dominant in the world of motorsport. And I truly believe that the constructors-only model, in which everyone must design and build their own prototype chassis to a set of technical regulations before being allowed to compete, is an important part of what makes F1 special. In my opinion it adds a lot of prestige to the championship.

 

Gone are the days where you can buy in any old chassis, bolt any old engine into it, and pick and choose your races. That would be easier for the entrants, and might attract more entries, but they would be lower calibre people. I think F1 would sell itself short by allowing customer teams to enter. You may counter that Frank Williams, Patrick Head and Ron Dennis weren't lower calibre people than some of the constructor-entrants we have now, but the vast majority of the customer entrants from that era were, and they are now long gone and, for the most part, forgotten.

 

Furthermore all the existing problems as regards engines (the dependency of the customers on the manufacturers, the controversies over customers allegedly being told by their supplier's engineers to turn down their engines when their supplier's works cars are trying to pass them, the excessive leverage the manufacturers have if they ever threaten to withdraw) would be multiplied.

 

And crucially, for a talented designer or aerodynamicist, the removal of small constructors would deprive them of exactly the kind of environment where they can currently make their name and establish a reputation in the sport, by being able to put their ideas into practice and run them in races. If the only people doing aero development are the manufacturers, and the teams are just buying in aero upgrades as and when, then an up-and-coming aero guy will have fewer places to go in F1. And if they do get a job for a manufacturer, if they're relatively inexperienced they will find it a lot more dificult to get their design philosophy onto the car. Ideas that fit in with the design philosophy of the established designer / technical director are what will end up on the car. This will make F1 less attractive to talented people and motorsport will lose them to other industries.

 

The problem with being against customer cars is that people will, quite rightly, want to know what we can do, in that case, to make it so the smaller teams can afford to run their operations and pay their bills, staff etc without running up astronomical amounts of debt, going bust and rising from the ashes, leaving a lot of innocent third parties seriously out of pocket (including former employees and the taxman). I happen to think there's a relatively straightforward answer to this, but the problem is neither the manufacturers nor the commercial rights holder like it. There will have to be a more equitable distribution of the commercial revenues. If that doesn't happen, we will end up with customer teams or third cars, or both, but then the negative consequences referred to above will follow.


Edited by redreni, 02 June 2015 - 16:11.


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#102 BlinkyMcSquinty

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Posted 02 June 2015 - 16:44

If Formula One was healthy, each team would be able to survive, build their own cars, and others would want to join the party. The discussion on customer cars is a sign of a deeper malady, that Formula One is not healthy, the list of prospective teams is very short, and only the top teams with very deep pockets are doing well. If you transferred this situation to a business or even any other professional sporting franchise, it would be a sign that the business is failing.

 

At best costumer cars is a band-aid solution, a temporary reprieve from the cancer that is slowly killing the patient.



#103 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 10:03

Tost said in an interview that the costs of running a customer team were quite high, almost half of the top teams budget.



#104 vowcartaGP

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Posted 03 June 2015 - 14:11

as an alternative to customer cars, there is the current IndyCar model. Perhaps with different parts of the car for aerodynamic freedom and at least 5/6 constructors making aero kits as opposed to engine manufacturers. (Mercedes and Ferrari excepted obviously). Dallara would have a field day.

#105 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 09:54

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/119296

 

Its hard to see the smaller teams agree to customer cars.



#106 J. Edlund

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 10:53

Customer cars only disappeared in the 80's so for most of its life 'Grand Prix' racing has been fine with them. Thats how Ferrari and Williams got stared.  

 

Back then you bought a car, repaired it if it broke, modified it to go faster, and eventually learned how to build your own cars. You didn't recieve and older spec. car on wednesday before the race weekend and returned it to the manufacturer on sunday after the race while paying most of your money to the manufacturer.

 

The current customer car proposal is made in the self interrest of the top teams, not the sport. A customer team will essentially become a 'B team' that has no other option than staying a 'B team' since it doesn't have and never will have the know how and resources to actually repair, build or improve the car. The customer team route is a one way street, once you down that way you will never come back.

 

The purpose of the customer car is not to improve the sport, make it less reliable on a single team or anything like that. Instead it is greed among the top teams that is behind this proposal;the top teams want to keep their share of the money which means the smaller teams can't be allowed to get more money. If the money from the commercial rights holder instead were distributed equally among the teams (like it is in some other sports) even the small teams could afford designing and building their own cars. This would also lead to closer racing, as the performance gap will decrease with the funding gap.



#107 kapow

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 11:20

I don't understand why customer cars would ruin F1, maybe I'm missing something?

Customer cars would allow new teams to easily join the sport and reduce costs. No one would be forced to buy a customer car - For example, Force India could continue building their own car if they wishedwished and thought they could do a better job than buying a year old car.

The only tricky side I see is if teams wanted to move from being a customer to a constructor but any new teams would have that problem anyway.

More teams, more drivers, closer competition and reduced costs for some.

Possibly the way it's been proposed isn't quite right, with teams using current cars and it still being in control of the manufacturer.

Edited by kapow, 04 June 2015 - 11:23.


#108 FullThrottleF1

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 11:23

See J. Edlund's comments above. Customers will basically become the subordinates of the big teams.



#109 kapow

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 11:25

See J. Edlund's comments above. Customers will basically become the subordinates of the big teams.


Yes that isn't right. I was seeing this more as being able to buy last year's car and having free reign of development and not in the control of the big team.

#110 GhostR

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 14:04

Yeah, not liking the proposal that has been put forward in the latest Autosport article. That's not "customer cars done right" IMO. That's customer cars done in a way that caters to the interests of the top teams, and that's not what we need.



#111 anbeck

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 14:17

Are they really discussing that the "mother"-team will take car of the cars? Autosport writes that the customer cars might stay in the hand of the constructor, which hands them over to the customer team before the race and takes them back to the factory after them. That seems like the last F2 to me.... I am all for customer cars, but not if they make those baby-sitter rules.... 



#112 BRG

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 15:00

I don't understand why customer cars would ruin F1, maybe I'm missing something?

 

No, you're not missing anything.  You just aren't tuned in on the 'Tea Party' style of thinking here that goes 'Anything new or different must be evil and cause the end of civilisation as we know it'



#113 noikeee

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 15:48

Are they really discussing that the "mother"-team will take car of the cars? Autosport writes that the customer cars might stay in the hand of the constructor, which hands them over to the customer team before the race and takes them back to the factory after them. That seems like the last F2 to me.... I am all for customer cars, but not if they make those baby-sitter rules.... 

 

It's not the result of some baby-sitter rules, but rather the natural result of what will happen if you open F1 to customer cars. Why should the customer teams try to develop the cars if it's far cheaper for them to get them as a full package; and why should the manufacturer teams let them do separate development, if they've got the power to sell the cars only to direct subordinates under their guidance? Again, this isn't the 1970s where you can saw off bits of the car in your garage and make it faster.
 
I'm actually almost okay with it if it's as Autosport says, because if you limit each manufacturer to 1 customer only maximum, you still maintain a nice variety of cars throughout the grid. However what this effectively will do, over the course of the next few years, is push F1 into a championship of 6 teams with 4 cars each. Maybe the 3rd and 4th cars will be racing under the names "Sauber", "Force India" or similar, but be under no illusions, they will very much become "Ferrari B", "McLaren B", in everything but name...
 
A grid of 6x4 is okay, should be quite fun and sustainable for a while, but the next time there's an economic crisis and 2 manufacturers pull out at same time (like Honda, Toyota, BMW, Renault did), you're left with a 4x4... which is too little to make a grid of cars. Then the next step is a 4x5, then a 3x6, then, then... you're left with either a DTM situation of absurd team orders spread over many cars, or a completely spec series. So regardless of how much you limit the customer cars in this first step introducing them, it's still the first step into a cliff.
 
Also, what happens if when customer cars are in, Mercedes still dominate? We're going to have a lot of 1-2s by Mercedes, 3-4s by their customer team (which won't be allowed to win), and only then the Ferraris, aren't we? And then the Ferrari Bs. Will Red Bull be happy with fighting for 8th places (or 12th, or worse, if they're behind McLaren and/or Williams), or will they flee the sport and start the domino effect of teams pulling out already?

Edited by noikeee, 04 June 2015 - 23:05.


#114 GTRacer

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 20:38

Customer cars would allow new teams to easily join the sport and reduce costs. No one would be forced to buy a customer car - For example, Force India could continue building their own car if they wished and thought they could do a better job than buying a year old car.

The proposal as I understand is not for year old cars but would see customers running current season cars.

 

You mention force India so I'll continue using them as an example. Lets say we have customer cars & end up with 3 customer teams running Mercedes, Ferrari's & Red Bull's... How are Force India meant to compete with that? They would be left in a situation where instead of competing for the tail end of the top 10 they would be down competing around 15th getting destroyed by teams who were not investing in F1 like they are by having there own facilities that they have spent a fortune on developing.

Throw Sauber, Lotus etc... in & you have these teams suddenly down in 20th instead of fighting for points, Where's the incentive to stay in F1 under those conditions?

 

Its fine to then use the argument that they could buy customer cars, But they have all entered to be a constructor, They have all spent a fortune over many years building, maintaining & upgrading facilities & hiring staff to be a constructor. Putting them in a situation where its either be a customer team or be unable to compete against the customer teams isn't fair on them & isn't in the best interest of F1.

 

 

 

Its infuriating given that the solution to completely avoid the customer car, B team, 3rd car debate is so damn obvious..... Better distribution of the prize money & sensible cost reductions. The only things blocking these are Bernie (Well more CVC nowadays) & the strategy group that should be abolished to stop the big teams blocking cost changes all the time.

 

To be honest the best way of ensuring cost reduction, prize money distribution & financial problems in general are shoved off the table for good is by going down the customer car, B Team or 3rd car route as your then removing the small teams who are been vocal about & pushing for the financial changes & this is why those at the top of F1's financial structure are so keen to go along with the proposals while the small teams are firmly against them.



#115 Paco

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Posted 04 June 2015 - 22:02

If customer cars ever make it, and I doubt they would... they any customer chassis should be excluded from the WCC and results only applicable to the WDC. 

 

However, in that... then they wouldn't be eligible for bonus payout. 

 

They should receive compensation like travel etc. that teams get now but at the end of the day..

 

If you don't do the work, then you don't deserve to get paid as one.

 

Also the issue then comes up with how locked down are the customer chassis and how much can a team work on themselves. 

 

In theory it appears all honkey dory but at the end of the day, it opens up a huge can of worms.. especially if a tire war was to erupt.

 

Can you image a customer team gets Michelin tires while the chassis manufacturer get Pirelli's and the Pirellis on a given weekend significantly outperform the Michelins.. where the top 6 places are al Pirellis tires.. leaving the chassis manufacturer losing out simply for having the wrong tire that weekend.  Blasphamous.

 

I just cant comprehend how in the world this could ever every work out, unless the chassis and PU was a unique package supplied by the FIA with no constructor that supplies themselves or other teams having access to it.  Either your a constructor (chassis, PU) or a Customer spec car (FIA chassis, FIA PU ie like a PUR engine)

 

So customer TEAMS wouldn't have a Mercedes, Ferrari, Honda, Renault engine nor any of their chassis. 

 

Then maybe I can see a borderline validity in it.  Go it alone or go at it with an FIA car but if you go FIA not only are you going to have a hard time competing against the big teams, but you also need to win out on the minnows.  Maybe, bonus payout could be setup with a "B" class WCC so that if they finish top 3 of the customer teams, they get the some of the costs back.



#116 cas422

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 01:43

What if customer cars was simply the IP to design and build a current year factory team chassis in your own factory. A clone that a Sauber or Haas or FI were then free to try to tweak and improve in collaboration/competition with the donor manufacturer. All these teams have already sunk a fortune into design and manufacturing facilities.



#117 Talisman

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 08:37

What if customer cars was simply the IP to design and build a current year factory team chassis in your own factory. A clone that a Sauber or Haas or FI were then free to try to tweak and improve in collaboration/competition with the donor manufacturer. All these teams have already sunk a fortune into design and manufacturing facilities.


That wouldn't be much of a cost saving though, teams would still keep a development team and the customer chassis would still be quite expensive on top. Financially customer cars would only work in reducing costs if the customer has no development capability and therefore the attached expense at all.

#118 BRG

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 09:58

Who needs the Strategy Group and FOM rigorously opposing any new entrants into their closed shop ir indeed any changes at all, when so many of the fans seem intent on doing their dirty work for them?

 

Throw the doors open, let anyone enter that complies with the technical regs - customer car, own design, one car teams, one-off entries, - come one, come all.  That way F1 will live and thrive, instead of stultifying and decomposing as it is now.  So what if there is another Andrea Moda or Life - we've had USF1 and HRT under the current rules!  Perhaps we will get another Hesketh/Hunt combo, or a new Tyrell.  

 

Or we can have three cars from Merc, McL, Ferrari, Williams....and then four cars from Ferrari, Merc and McL, then six cars from Merc and Ferrari and then....... RIP.