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Now something entirely different, 200mph sprintcar


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#1 Bob Riebe

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 20:24

http://www.bybillwoo...est-sprint-car/

 

2014GardnerBonneville_RecordRun.jpg



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#2 E1pix

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 22:50

Would love to read it, if the entire story would just open on that site.

Cool car, though.

#3 RStock

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Posted 20 May 2015 - 23:44

If you click the headline, you will get the full story.



#4 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 00:01

Looking at the pic I thought the front tyres were regular Sprint steers. Looking further and they are all lakester type tyres, I guess a lot more stable and safe at high speeds.

Really there is no reason why a Sprint should not go that fast, people have in Hot Rods and road cars for decades. Though he would need a 50mph push to get going with no transmission. A Sprinter has heaps of power, weighs very little and with the aero mods is probably more suited than many cars that go that fast.

Now someone needs to do it in a Midget!! The short wheelbase of those would be a handfull!



#5 E1pix

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 01:27

A few years back I tried -- but failed -- to convince my karting sponsor to buy the British record-holding land speed kart for us to run at Bonneville.

I'da driven that sucker in a minute, would have maybe outrun the Sprint car... (just Press [something] and Hang On!!!).

#6 Repco22

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 07:13

Looking at the pic I thought the front tyres were regular Sprint steers. Looking further and they are all lakester type tyres, I guess a lot more stable and safe at high speeds.

Really there is no reason why a Sprint should not go that fast, people have in Hot Rods and road cars for decades. Though he would need a 50mph push to get going with no transmission. A Sprinter has heaps of power, weighs very little and with the aero mods is probably more suited than many cars that go that fast.

Now someone needs to do it in a Midget!! The short wheelbase of those would be a handfull!

Lee, there have been midgets at Bonneville. Two mentioned in Gordon Eliot White's book, 'Offenhauser', are Danny Oakes and Rex Mays, in 1948 and '50, recording 139.4 mph

 and 147.3 respectively.  Mays' record stood till 1988 when Gordon Eliot White drove his own 122 cu. in. Kurtis-Offy midget to an all-time class/midget record of  156.9mph. [159.7 one way.]  Brave man!



#7 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 09:20

Lee, there have been midgets at Bonneville. Two mentioned in Gordon Eliot White's book, 'Offenhauser', are Danny Oakes and Rex Mays, in 1948 and '50, recording 139.4 mph

 and 147.3 respectively.  Mays' record stood till 1988 when Gordon Eliot White drove his own 122 cu. in. Kurtis-Offy midget to an all-time class/midget record of  156.9mph. [159.7 one way.]  Brave man!

157 mph in a Kurtis / Offy  makes the modern Sprinter actually look slow. I would suggest a modern one with a modern engine would be close to the 200mph mark. Though a modern midget is all offset to the right and would need to be 'squared up' . but the engines probably have twice the power of an Offy. Though the wheelbase is still similar to the 1948 car!



#8 RStock

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 16:44

I recall hearing when WOO was still running the Syracuse mile, some were turning over 180 mph on the straights, but had to dial the car back a bit because the wings would buckle. That coupled with Dale Blaney's crash that he was lucky to have survived convinced them that sprint cars were not built to run or crash at those speeds, which is why WOO dropped the miles. So it's no surprise to me one could turn over 200. I'm guessing most could.



#9 E1pix

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 22:18

If you click the headline, you will get the full story.


Thanks for that (Whoops).

#10 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 May 2015 - 22:46

I recall hearing when WOO was still running the Syracuse mile, some were turning over 180 mph on the straights, but had to dial the car back a bit because the wings would buckle. That coupled with Dale Blaney's crash that he was lucky to have survived convinced them that sprint cars were not built to run or crash at those speeds, which is why WOO dropped the miles. So it's no surprise to me one could turn over 200. I'm guessing most could.

A mile dirt oval would be pretty exciting in anything. A Sprint or a midget to me is best on a 1/4- 1/3 mile track.

I guess those tracks have become sedan tracks? 



#11 Bob Riebe

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 04:51

A mile dirt oval would be pretty exciting in anything. A Sprint or a midget to me is best on a 1/4- 1/3 mile track.

I guess those tracks have become sedan tracks? 

A trip to tracks of one mile used to be not all that rare for decades.

 

Anything smaller than 3/8 mile is really to short; it is too much like watching the wall of death show at carnivals, or the old velodromes.

I saw them on a quarter mile track once and do not intend to do that again..

 

1/2 mile is about the perfect size.



#12 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 09:28

A trip to tracks of one mile used to be not all that rare for decades.

 

Anything smaller than 3/8 mile is really to short; it is too much like watching the wall of death show at carnivals, or the old velodromes.

I saw them on a quarter mile track once and do not intend to do that again..

 

1/2 mile is about the perfect size.

Here in Oz there is nothing bigger than about 470 metres. Some under 300. Some of those little bullrings create some very good racing.

And haven driven them is Classics are a lot of fun.

I have seen US racing on the longer tracks and it doers not appeal much at all. Black slick tracks where they use about half the available power or smoke the tyres off of them.



#13 RStock

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 15:23

A mile dirt oval would be pretty exciting in anything. A Sprint or a midget to me is best on a 1/4- 1/3 mile track.

I guess those tracks have become sedan tracks? 

No, I think they still have a Sprint Car race during Syracuse Dirt week, it's just not sanctioned by WOO. I'm not sure about that however. Plus I think USAC still runs some miles, but they do so sans wings.

 

While I understand the WOO's reasoning in not running miles, it's a bit of a shame. The best sprint car race I have ever seen was at Syracuse. I don't recall the year, but Jac Haudenschild was in the Casey Luna Ford. He and Kinser waged holy war for the entire race, climbing over each others wheels and nerfing each other around. It was that way pretty much from green to checkers. Haud came out on top.

 

I'll never forget after the race when they parked the top three cars at the start/finish line, Haud was already out of his car when Kinser came to a stop. Steve hopped out and headed straight to Haud. I thought he was mad about the rough driving and was going to have a go at Haud, but he had a big grin and shook hands with Haud. Told him something to the effect of "Hell of a race" and you could tell they both had great fun, laughning and slapping each other on the back. I was never a Steve Kinser fan but his stock rose in my book after that. He knew you were not going to out-brave Haud, but it never hurts to try.



#14 E1pix

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 17:49

Semi-OT about Kinser, we saw him run his last-ever race at Skagit Speedway, Washington last summer. We always leave tracks last and saw his apparel stand closing up, connected to its tow vehicle and running. I ran up and bought an "11" decal and started back to our camp -- noticing a lone car behind the trailer. In it was The King himself, in the passenger side awaiting his driver/apparel manager wife.

We walked up and I asked, "I'm curious, Steve, what do you do now [once retired]?"

He thought for quite some time, with a lost look, and replied, "I have no idea."

#15 Michael Ferner

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 18:11

This is all a bit BS, as there is no "Sprint Car class" in record trials, the same as there is no "Midget class". Those midget runs were actually attempts for the 2-litre class, while this sprint is either 6 litres or seven, which both fall in the 5- to 8-litre class, for which 210 mph is not even modest - it's a laugh. My LSR knowledge is very limited, but I believe the class record went beyond 300 mph fifty years ago, already.

And yes, WoO sprints running at Syracuse look very SCARY, even on TV. The "natural habitat" for a sprint is the classical half-mile, and I still think that's where it shows best. A full mile or a quarter are interesting to watch from time to time, but always a bit of a compromise.

#16 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 23:56

This is all a bit BS, as there is no "Sprint Car class" in record trials, the same as there is no "Midget class". Those midget runs were actually attempts for the 2-litre class, while this sprint is either 6 litres or seven, which both fall in the 5- to 8-litre class, for which 210 mph is not even modest - it's a laugh. My LSR knowledge is very limited, but I believe the class record went beyond 300 mph fifty years ago, already.

And yes, WoO sprints running at Syracuse look very SCARY, even on TV. The "natural habitat" for a sprint is the classical half-mile, and I still think that's where it shows best. A full mile or a quarter are interesting to watch from time to time, but always a bit of a compromise.

I think you are right. from memory a 120ci Offy is just under 2 litre.

Modern pushrod midget engines are i think 155? 2.5 litre.

The Cosworth twin cams in vogue a few years back were 2 litre. 

Midgets have different capacity for OHC, pushrod, s/c engines. VWs and rotarys I think are different again?



#17 RStock

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 23:59

This is all a bit BS, as there is no "Sprint Car class" in record trials,

Excuse me Michael, but who said there was?



#18 Michael Ferner

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 06:27

I didn't read every word very carefully, Rob, so apologies if my "attack" was misdirected, but that's the tenor of the news flash that I get. Maybe they're just saying, "look here what we can do with an ordinary sprint car" to which I can only reply "so what". I must admit that I fail to see much sense in record trials anyway, other than a show-off for overinflated testicles. Just not my cup of T.

I think you are right. from memory a 120ci Offy is just under 2 litre.
Modern pushrod midget engines are i think 155? 2.5 litre.
The Cosworth twin cams in vogue a few years back were 2 litre. 
Midgets have different capacity for OHC, pushrod, s/c engines. VWs and rotarys I think are different again?


One of the problems here, the absence of unitary rules. Different clubs have different regulations, and they often change with time.

#19 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 08:55

I didn't read every word very carefully, Rob, so apologies if my "attack" was misdirected, but that's the tenor of the news flash that I get. Maybe they're just saying, "look here what we can do with an ordinary sprint car" to which I can only reply "so what". I must admit that I fail to see much sense in record trials anyway, other than a show-off for overinflated testicles. Just not my cup of T.


One of the problems here, the absence of unitary rules. Different clubs have different regulations, and they often change with time.

Actually they have been quite uniform for decades in the US, OZ, NZ. They have changed very occasionally, at one time to allow the Offy to grow to keep up with VWs. I am a little out of touch these days but the top limit has not changed in about 50 years.



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#20 RStock

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 21:52

I didn't read every word very carefully, Rob, so apologies if my "attack" was misdirected, but that's the tenor of the news flash that I get. Maybe they're just saying, "look here what we can do with an ordinary sprint car" to which I can only reply "so what". I must admit that I fail to see much sense in record trials anyway, other than a show-off for overinflated testicles. Just not my cup of T.

No need to apologize Michael, not to me anyway. I just thought perhaps you knew something I didn't. I generally agree with the rest of what you said though, I noted earlier most sprint cars would be able to run those speeds.

 

I had already seen this story awhile back, but I'm sure some enjoyed it and thanks to Bob for posting. Been an interesting conversation so far regardless.



#21 fredeuce

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 22:47

I think what people fail to appreciate with land speed trials on salt lakes is that you can't simply take a car that on paper might achieve 200 mph and go out and reach such speeds on the salt. As mentioned in the interview by Damion Gardner he mentions the salt was slushy.Not the best of conditions to reach high speeds like this.

 

Even at the best of times when the salt is rock hard like  concrete moisture is always an issue and the traction afforded by the hardened salt surface is marginal at best.You combine this with the need for special high speed  narrow tyres to run on the lake and the use of ballast you begin to realize racing on salt lakes is a unique exercise and difficult to draw comparisons with other forms of motorsport.

 

Importantly records are set by conducting two runs each way over the measured mile. Thus keeping up sustained speed over that distance on a surface with marginal traction makes for a challenging mix of elements. Combine that with a short wheelbase as on the sprint car this just adds to the degree of difficulty. In absolute terms it is not a high speed compared with other purpose built lakesters and streamliners.  However you can't really compare those types of cars. They are very different. Michael to say you can't see much sense in such records  being set , the same criticism could be leveled and any form of motorsport for that matter. The fact is man has been pursuing speed records since the inception of the motor car. I don't see that changing anytime soon.



#22 Bob Riebe

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 01:40

I didn't read every word very carefully, Rob, so apologies if my "attack" was misdirected, but that's the tenor of the news flash that I get. Maybe they're just saying, "look here what we can do with an ordinary sprint car" to which I can only reply "so what". I must admit that I fail to see much sense in record trials anyway, other than a show-off for overinflated testicles. Just not my cup of T.
 

You should google the event, there are two different articles as it tell exactly why they did it.



#23 Michael Ferner

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 16:52

Michael to say you can't see much sense in such records  being set , the same criticism could be leveled and any form of motorsport for that matter. The fact is man has been pursuing speed records since the inception of the motor car. I don't see that changing anytime soon.


Absolutely! This is just my personal opinion, and I respect other peoples choices (even if I do not always sound like that  ;)). There are many forms of motor sports that I don't like, be it speed trials, tractor pulling or figure 8 racing, but at the same time there are valid reasons for other people to like and support just that. In fact, there are valid reasons to not like motor sports at all. Chacun à son goût, as Frenchy said...

#24 Jim Thurman

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 21:39

A mile dirt oval would be pretty exciting in anything. A Sprint or a midget to me is best on a 1/4- 1/3 mile track.

I guess those tracks have become sedan tracks? 

 

Why would you think 1/4-1/3 mile tracks in the U.S. have become "sedan tracks"? :confused:   The discussion on sprint car racing on mile ovals is what has gone on, not what is going on. Running sprint cars on a mile isn't the norm. In fact, that's why the discussion :)  There aren't many 1 mile dirt ovals used for auto racing in the U.S., while 1/4 mile is the most common length for dirt ovals with 1/3 and 3/8 probably being next most common.

 

Here in Oz there is nothing bigger than about 470 metres. Some under 300. Some of those little bullrings create some very good racing.

And haven driven them is Classics are a lot of fun.

I have seen US racing on the longer tracks and it doers not appeal much at all. Black slick tracks where they use about half the available power or smoke the tyres off of them.

 

All tracks are not created equal. That isn't down to size as much as it is down to track preparation and surface. Many Midwestern tracks become "dry slick" while a lot of California tracks stay "tacky." Daytime makes a huge difference as well, invariably drying out the track. There's absolutely no comparison between, for example, Terre Haute and Ascot, though both were 1/2 mile ovals (and in Terre Haute's case, still is).



#25 RStock

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 21:56

Umm, Jim, I believe Lee was referring to 1 mile tracks.



#26 Jim Thurman

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 19:10

A mile dirt oval would be pretty exciting in anything. A Sprint or a midget to me is best on a 1/4- 1/3 mile track.

I guess those tracks have become sedan tracks? 

 

 

Here in Oz there is nothing bigger than about 470 metres. Some under 300. Some of those little bullrings create some very good racing.

And haven driven them is Classics are a lot of fun.

I have seen US racing on the longer tracks and it doers not appeal much at all. Black slick tracks where they use about half the available power or smoke the tyres off of them.

 

I realize everyone else was referring to 1 mile tracks, but these highlighted quotes, especially the top one, sure don't seem like Lee was :)  Unfortunately, he's the only one that can say one way or the other and he hasn't .



#27 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 22:30

Why would you think 1/4-1/3 mile tracks in the U.S. have become "sedan tracks"? :confused:   The discussion on sprint car racing on mile ovals is what has gone on, not what is going on. Running sprint cars on a mile isn't the norm. In fact, that's why the discussion :)  There aren't many 1 mile dirt ovals used for auto racing in the U.S., while 1/4 mile is the most common length for dirt ovals with 1/3 and 3/8 probably being next most common.

 

 

All tracks are not created equal. That isn't down to size as much as it is down to track preparation and surface. Many Midwestern tracks become "dry slick" while a lot of California tracks stay "tacky." Daytime makes a huge difference as well, invariably drying out the track. There's absolutely no comparison between, for example, Terre Haute and Ascot, though both were 1/2 mile ovals (and in Terre Haute's case, still is).

Actually I referred to the mile tracks as sedan tracks. Long wheelbase cars are lot less twitchy!

Dry slick tracks of any length have never excited me. WoO competitors though seem to expect them these days. Here in Oz they used to prepare tracks all night for the Sprints but whinging drivers want slick. Which creates less racing and more dust and rubber in the air. And more restarts.

Hooky tracks with plenty of side bite create full throttle racing and make the 410s in particular look good whereas dry slick dusty tracks they drive around half throttle. I have seen a 410 feature followed by a 360 feature where the the 360s actually lap faster.

Hooky tracks a R/R will last all night wheras [at worst] dry slick is a tyre a heat and then drive real slow to make the tyre last the feature. Boring,, and very expensive too. Budget racers just cannot afford this crap. 



#28 Jim Thurman

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 23:38

Actually I referred to the mile tracks as sedan tracks. Long wheelbase cars are lot less twitchy!

Dry slick tracks of any length have never excited me. WoO competitors though seem to expect them these days. Here in Oz they used to prepare tracks all night for the Sprints but whinging drivers want slick. Which creates less racing and more dust and rubber in the air. And more restarts.

Hooky tracks with plenty of side bite create full throttle racing and make the 410s in particular look good whereas dry slick dusty tracks they drive around half throttle. I have seen a 410 feature followed by a 360 feature where the the 360s actually lap faster.

Hooky tracks a R/R will last all night wheras [at worst] dry slick is a tyre a heat and then drive real slow to make the tyre last the feature. Boring,, and very expensive too. Budget racers just cannot afford this crap. 

 

Ok, thanks Lee. Well, Rob, you were right, It was just me :blush:  Mile dirt tracks are pretty rare for racing of any kind now in the U.S., there just aren't many. There aren't even many stock car races on mile dirt tracks.

 

Yeah, I was going to mention how the WoO has long insisted on "dry slick" tracks and even relate the story of the time in the early 80s when Ted Johnson got on a grader and re-worked a California track that was "too heavy" for their liking. Concur completely with you on dry slick racing :up:



#29 RStock

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Posted 30 May 2015 - 19:14

, Rob, you were right,

Wow, that doesn't happen very often.

 

I agree about the dry slick tracks, we can thank Ted Johnson for that. I know ARCA still runs a dirt mile every year, a race I look forward to, but not sure who does after that other than modifieds. There was still a champ car race for some time, not sure if it's still around however, or if any sprints still do. I still think there is a sprint car race at Syracuse every year, it just isn't sanctioned.


Edited by RStock, 30 May 2015 - 19:14.