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Kimi Raikkonen vs. Sebastian Vettel 2015 II
#3951
Posted 15 October 2015 - 14:23
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#3952
Posted 15 October 2015 - 14:24
Still doesn't excuse his annoying last lap mantras where he tends to go a bit Zen, but hey-ho.
"He was massively fast and in his first season for us and in a race at Spa he decided to take Eau Rouge flat in a wet race," Carlin said. "He had a massive accident and while he was trying to catch the accident his front wheel came off, flew over the car and caught the top of his finger – and took the top of his finger off".
http://planetf1.com/...ation-explained
#3953
Posted 15 October 2015 - 14:35
That's why I said "annoyingly". To me, Vettel is every bit as good as Hamilton, but there will be those who will say he hasn't beaten anyone special.
Well, one person cannot please everybody. What matters is that you know and appreciate Seb's abilities. We all have various opinions but despite his various achievements, Seb's legacy is still building and he is just at the beginning of his Ferrari journey/dream so maybe he'll change their minds someday.
To me, Seb has already cemented his place as one of the greats in F1.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Seb was dominated by Ricciardo..... DOMINATED.
All time greats dont get dominated....
#3954
Posted 15 October 2015 - 14:38
Ever heard of DRS?
On a safety car restart? Nope.
#3955
Posted 15 October 2015 - 14:46
He does not need to justify doing his finger celebration.I didn't know if this was common knowledge or not, but if this is the reason for his finger celebration then fair play.
Still doesn't excuse his annoying last lap mantras where he tends to go a bit Zen, but hey-ho.
"He was massively fast and in his first season for us and in a race at Spa he decided to take Eau Rouge flat in a wet race," Carlin said. "He had a massive accident and while he was trying to catch the accident his front wheel came off, flew over the car and caught the top of his finger – and took the top of his finger off".
http://planetf1.com/...ation-explained
Anybody who seriously uses that as a criticism against him or says it makes him unlikeable are just being unbelievably bitter and in actuality, just didn't like that he was winning so much.
In other words, some people are extremely petty.
#3956
Posted 15 October 2015 - 14:49
On a safety car restart? Nope.
The question was why was Kimi so much slower on the SC restart than he was on his fastest recorded speed during the race?
And the answer is in your post. You are proving LEO10's point.
#3957
Posted 15 October 2015 - 14:50
At 308km/hr as shown in that on board Kimi is 18km/hr slower than his clocking in the speed trap. How's that happen or I am missing something?
Ever heard of DRS?
On a safety car restart? Nope.
Hahahahaha. Ho lyyyyyyyy sh iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. Very good for figuring that out Kimble, indeed there is no DRS on the restart, amazing. So he reaches 308kph on the restart, according to YoungGun Kimi reached 18kph higher, so 326kph, somewhere else in the race. How do you think he managed to reach that? Could it be something called, hmmm, DRS maybe? Or do you think he reached 326kph without DRS somewhere in the race? Seriously.... do you guys have any idea what you are talking about?
#3958
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:01
Sorry, re DRS. I didn't notice that you were responding to loads of people in one post.
So, we can agree then that Bottas passed him as the Williams was faster down the straight (without DRS).
#3959
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:02
Sorry, re DRS. I didn't notice that you were responding to loads of people in one post.
So, we can agree then that Bottas passed him as the Williams was faster down the straight (without DRS).
That's what I was about to post too!
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#3960
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:02
Or he just did poorly to give himself a gap and get a good exit onto the straight?Sorry, re DRS. I didn't notice that you were responding to loads of people in one post.
So, we can agree then that Bottas passed him as the Williams was faster down the straight (without DRS).
#3961
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:07
Or he just did poorly to give himself a gap and get a good exit onto the straight?
No, as we can see the Ferrari is at max speed when Bottas just drives past him, with barely any noticeable reduction in speed.
#3962
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:09
My grandfather talks of something that they had in years gone by, before DRS. Ancient times. I believe they called it "a slipstream".
#3963
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:10
There is more to overtaking than just top speed.No, as we can see the Ferrari is at max speed when Bottas just drives past him, with barely any noticeable reduction in speed.
#3964
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:16
My grandfather talks of something that they had in years gone by, before DRS. Ancient times. I believe they called it "a slipstream".
Yes, but when that is evident you normally see the car actually slow when it breaks cover.
#3965
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:16
The problem is simple, Kimi's driving on the restarts. It just wasn't good and he gave Bottas and Vettel a huge slipstream in both restarts, while Kimi himself had no slipstream because he lost touch with the cars infront. With Bottas, once they came out onto the main straight, there was nothing Kimi could have done, the damage was already done by him in the 3 corners before as we discussed yesterday. On the 2nd restart though, he could have kept Vettel behind him if he simply defended the inside line completely, instead of half-assed which he has done many times before in his career anyway.
#3966
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:29
I'm assuming that's Bottas' ERS quota in the middle of his wheel that goes from close to full to empty down the straight.
#3967
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:29
At 308km/hr as shown in that on board Kimi is 18km/hr slower than his clocking in the speed trap. How's that happen or I am missing something?
You're also missing 90 kilos of fuel.(btw,his top speed was 343km/h)
#3968
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:31
I didn't know if this was common knowledge or not, but if this is the reason for his finger celebration then fair play.
Still doesn't excuse his annoying last lap mantras where he tends to go a bit Zen, but hey-ho.
"He was massively fast and in his first season for us and in a race at Spa he decided to take Eau Rouge flat in a wet race," Carlin said. "He had a massive accident and while he was trying to catch the accident his front wheel came off, flew over the car and caught the top of his finger – and took the top of his finger off".
http://planetf1.com/...ation-explained
He denied that few years ago.
#3969
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:41
You're also missing 90 kilos of fuel.(btw,his top speed was 343km/h)
You are correct, my mistake, the 326km/hr came from the qualifying speed traps thinking it was from the race.
#3970
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:49
I dont think anybody is arguing that Bottas didn't have a faster car on the straight at all. Faster top speed plus momentum from slipstream means he wasn't going to pull out and then his speed stalls.Yes, but when that is evident you normally see the car actually slow when it breaks cover.
I think people are just saying that it wasn't some mysterious lack of top speed on Kimi's car that caused him to get overtaken.
#3971
Posted 15 October 2015 - 15:53
I dont think anybody is arguing that Bottas didn't have a faster car on the straight at all. Faster top speed plus momentum from slipstream means he wasn't going to pull out and then his speed stalls.
I think people are just saying that it wasn't some mysterious lack of top speed on Kimi's car that caused him to get overtaken.
But... that would have been such a nice explanation. Nobody at fault, just a[nother] mystery. Doesn't everyone love mysteries?
#3972
Posted 15 October 2015 - 16:00
Bottas and Vettel were able to open a gap after their pass on kimi so he was just slower. Thats all
#3973
Posted 15 October 2015 - 16:10
I didn't know if this was common knowledge or not, but if this is the reason for his finger celebration then fair play.
Still doesn't excuse his annoying last lap mantras where he tends to go a bit Zen, but hey-ho.
"He was massively fast and in his first season for us and in a race at Spa he decided to take Eau Rouge flat in a wet race," Carlin said. "He had a massive accident and while he was trying to catch the accident his front wheel came off, flew over the car and caught the top of his finger – and took the top of his finger off".
http://planetf1.com/...ation-explained
It was told already many many years ago and every year someone is writing an aricle called "The real reason behind Vettels finger celebration"....never confirmed though
Edited by Marklar, 15 October 2015 - 16:18.
#3974
Posted 15 October 2015 - 16:20
#3975
Posted 15 October 2015 - 16:24
He-he, always good a laugh. The guy doing that site used to post here, you know.
#3976
Posted 15 October 2015 - 16:32
The difference in speed down the main straight between Seb and Kimi on at the restart, looked very similar to the difference in speed between Lewis and Nico at the start. To me it was purely down to the slipstream effect, which is very powerful particularly as the cars negotiate T1.
#3977
Posted 15 October 2015 - 16:39
I agree...and if we listen to all the excuse hunters, then we should very well believe Kimi's inability to generate proper tire temp likely led to him losing so much ground on the restart, eventually resulting in being overtaken. Am I wrong here, apologist? Or did I pick and choose the wrong excuse this time?Buffff...its just one more overtake like we watched 20 last race., yeah kimi could have problems with the tyres after the restart, too cold, whatever..... I dont care.
Bottas and Vettel were able to open a gap after their pass on kimi so he was just slower. Thats all
Basically, Kimi getting overtaken shouldn't have come as a suprise (to them or any of us) given his supposed tire warming issues, combined with the natural pace of the cars around him at the time.
Edited by BJHF1, 15 October 2015 - 22:09.
#3978
Posted 16 October 2015 - 04:37
I agree...and if we listen to all the excuse hunters, then we should very well believe Kimi's inability to generate proper tire temp likely led to him losing so much ground on the restart, eventually resulting in being overtaken. Am I wrong here, apologist? Or did I pick and choose the wrong excuse this time?
Why is it an excuse rather than a reason or an explanation? It's not like saying it wasn't his responsibility just saying why he did not have the speed to defend, but smart ass haters gotta hate I guess. Trouble heating tires may not be a let alone the correct explanation but nor is it an excuse, which should relieve him of culpability: "It wasn't my fault...."
Edited by Oho, 16 October 2015 - 10:44.
#3979
Posted 16 October 2015 - 07:06
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Seb was dominated by Ricciardo..... DOMINATED.
All time greats dont get dominated....
In qualy there wasn't much between them if you adjust for circumstances out of the control of the driver (AFAIR 5-6 in favor of Ricciardo). In races, Ricciardo handled the tyres better and could therefore extract more performance in the last stint. If you adjust for the artificial double points rule and misfortune in races, the gap between them was approx. 30 points in favor of Ricciardo over the season. (If you also factor in the qualy mechanical issues, it would be less but then it becomes quite subjective on how many points those cost.) Ricciardo was better in 2014 (man of the season for me), but it wasn't domination.
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#3980
Posted 16 October 2015 - 07:10
That's exactly what Kimble was saying, though. He(she?) said they had *no doubt* that something was wrong on Kimi's car on the restarts. That's where this discussion started - trying to excuse Kimi from responsibility, as always.Why is it an excuse, rather than a reason or an explanation? It's not like saying it wasn't his responsibility
#3981
Posted 16 October 2015 - 07:36
In qualy there wasn't much between them if you adjust for circumstances out of the control of the driver (AFAIR 5-6 in favor of Ricciardo). In races, Ricciardo handled the tyres better and could therefore extract more performance in the last stint. If you adjust for the artificial double points rule and misfortune in races, the gap between them was approx. 30 points in favor of Ricciardo over the season. (If you also factor in the qualy mechanical issues, it would be less but then it becomes quite subjective on how many points those cost.) Ricciardo was better in 2014 (man of the season for me), but it wasn't domination.
Wins
DR 3 - SV 0
Ricciardo was better in every aspect. To me it was domination.
Not like Vettel-Webber or Schumi-Barri but domination nonetheless.
/OT
#3982
Posted 16 October 2015 - 09:39
That's exactly what Kimble was saying, though. He(she?) said they had *no doubt* that something was wrong on Kimi's car on the restarts. That's where this discussion started - trying to excuse Kimi from responsibility, as always.
You're wrong, Kimble has been more than fair with comments towards Seb. The piling on that Kimble receives from expressing his/her opinion is depressing and that's a fact.
#3983
Posted 16 October 2015 - 09:43
I think I will wait for the new thread to post my adjusted race pace analyses. Not sure if it would be good for this thread anyway...
#3984
Posted 16 October 2015 - 10:34
You're wrong, Kimble has been more than fair with comments towards Seb. The piling on that Kimble receives from expressing his/her opinion is depressing and that's a fact.
Well, you can honestly only state how depressing something is for you, only. And that is a fact.
#3985
Posted 16 October 2015 - 10:34
Wins
DR 3 - SV 0
Ricciardo was better in every aspect. To me it was domination.
Not like Vettel-Webber or Schumi-Barri but domination nonetheless.
/OT
And I can see how you will scream at the tv but but remember 2014! if Vettel wins another WDC.
#3986
Posted 16 October 2015 - 10:48
And I can see how you will scream at the tv but but remember 2014! if Vettel wins another WDC.
Well, 2014 certainly won't change what success Vettel has had in the past and might have in the future. Then again, no number of further titles for Vettel will change the results of 2014 either.
#3987
Posted 16 October 2015 - 10:49
Well, you can honestly only state how depressing something is for you, only. And that is a fact.
You're opinion is noted in all honesty.
#3988
Posted 16 October 2015 - 11:01
And I can see how you will scream at the tv but but remember 2014! if Vettel wins another WDC.
Ok, if you say so.
But nothing can change 2014 no matter how many WDC Vettel might win.
And FWIW I think Vettel is great this year. He's showing that he is a great driver maximising more or less every result.
#3989
Posted 16 October 2015 - 11:08
Topic locked as we're nearing the post limit. New topic here: http://forums.autosp...ettel-2015-iii/
Please do not start up the SV vs DR off topic conversation again in the new thread.
Thanks