Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Steward Inconsistency ... Why No Traveling Stewards? [merged]


  • Please log in to reply
580 replies to this topic

#551 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 17,074 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 11 October 2021 - 12:39

Gasly was to blame for the Alonso incident, but it was a wet T1 - no need to penalise someone for an innocent mistake in very difficult conditions. Alonso on the other hand was rightly penalised.

 

This is problem thinking. If you want consistent stewarding, you need to drop this idea of an "innocent mistake". If you have such an idea, then the Stewards will have the option to ignore a rule infraction and so their actions will never be consistent (because it's a subjective thing and they can never be consistent, even if it's exactly the same people making the judgement).

 

For consistent stewarding you need to have clear rules and you need to penalise each infraction, regardless of the circumstances.



Advertisement

#552 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 11,995 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 11 October 2021 - 16:11

This is problem thinking. If you want consistent stewarding, you need to drop this idea of an "innocent mistake". If you have such an idea, then the Stewards will have the option to ignore a rule infraction and so their actions will never be consistent (because it's a subjective thing and they can never be consistent, even if it's exactly the same people making the judgement).

 

For consistent stewarding you need to have clear rules and you need to penalise each infraction, regardless of the circumstances.

but they are not doing that - sometimes Turn 1 Lap 1 counts, sometimes it does not



#553 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 35,982 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 11 October 2021 - 17:06

I am a Gasly fan-boy, naturally find it a very harsh penalty. Pretty sure I can find many incidents mirroring which were not penalized.



#554 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 11,995 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 11 October 2021 - 17:19

I neither a fan of his or Alonso's. 

I find it very unfair to a driver when they suddenly decide to hold the rule book to the letter, for one instance - see, this is right, this is how it should always be. Then we go back to being lenient. 



#555 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 35,982 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 11 October 2021 - 17:52

I neither a fan of his or Alonso's. 

I find it very unfair to a driver when they suddenly decide to hold the rule book to the letter, for one instance - see, this is right, this is how it should always be. Then we go back to being lenient. 

 

Leave me with the taste of different rules for different drivers, do we think Hamilton or Verstappen in Gasly's place would have been found having transgressed in the same way?

 

But them are the blows.



#556 Hellenic tifosi

Hellenic tifosi
  • Member

  • 6,564 posts
  • Joined: January 99

Posted 11 October 2021 - 18:01

This is problem thinking. If you want consistent stewarding, you need to drop this idea of an "innocent mistake". If you have such an idea, then the Stewards will have the option to ignore a rule infraction and so their actions will never be consistent (because it's a subjective thing and they can never be consistent, even if it's exactly the same people making the judgement).

 

For consistent stewarding you need to have clear rules and you need to penalise each infraction, regardless of the circumstances.

 

That's true, but context matters. The very same mistake under normal circumstances should be penalised, exactly as happened with Alonso on Mick. When approaching T1 in the wet, with Perez on the inside and Alonso on the outside, you have to be lenient on Gasly.

 

It wasn't an irresponsible move like Grosjean a few years ago, neither was it a total brain fade like Bottas in Hungary. It was just a mistake, which could have been left unpunished. Or, if you want to punish it, the penalty should have been more lenient than Alonso's.



#557 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 44,619 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 11 October 2021 - 18:13

but they are not doing that - sometimes Turn 1 Lap 1 counts, sometimes it does not

 


I've never really agreed with the idea of suspending the rules just because it's the first lap. Just because it's the start, and a bit hectic, is not a good reason.

#558 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 11,995 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 11 October 2021 - 18:24

I've never really agreed with the idea of suspending the rules just because it's the first lap. Just because it's the start, and a bit hectic, is not a good reason.

1 race ago we had 1 car have no intention of making the 1st corner and it was fine

last year leclerc totaled stroll on lap 1 in Sochi (in T3 or 4, can't remember the count)- all good.

 

The problem is you can't say this is fair unless this is how it is judged from now on. Otherwise it is not

 


Edited by MikeTekRacing, 11 October 2021 - 18:25.


#559 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 17,074 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 11 October 2021 - 23:49

Whilst exceptions keep cropping up, no one knows where the boundaries are. Some will make genuine mistakes, some will make mistakes through being a bit careless, some will make mistakes because they are attacking or defending in a way that is not going to work. Drivers that genuinely make a complete mistake will just be unfortunate - in the same way as they can be unfortunate in many other areas (victim of someone else's carelessness, mechanical issues, etc).



Advertisement

#560 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 8,799 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 12 October 2021 - 07:29

I totally missed that Gasly got a 5s penalty during the race. I'm fairly dumbfounded by that decision. It's the very definition of a racing incident and it was at T1 - where stewards are usually fairly lenient. 

Surely that's got to have been an ill-advised attempt to appease Alonso?

 



#561 JeePee

JeePee
  • Member

  • 5,907 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 12 October 2021 - 08:20

I wouldn't even penalise Gasly if it was lap 50. It was a 3 wide situation on a downfill wet track. Racing incident at its finest.



#562 AlexS

AlexS
  • Member

  • 6,277 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 08 November 2021 - 10:22

Once more seem there are some prefered drivers, teams. Why Ricciardo was not penalised?

 

Note1: that was a racing incident and he should not, but many others should not either.  

 

Note2: should FIA have an intensity impact rule to better judge?



#563 chrcol

chrcol
  • Member

  • 3,538 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 08 November 2021 - 10:31

Decision's seemed crazy for this race, there needs to be consistency even if it means they have them travelling around the world.



#564 chrcol

chrcol
  • Member

  • 3,538 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 08 November 2021 - 10:33

I've never really agreed with the idea of suspending the rules just because it's the first lap. Just because it's the start, and a bit hectic, is not a good reason.

 

Kind of for same reason as in the past we had safety cars coming out when they not needed, Liberty will be aware much of excitement is on first lap of race, if you dont suspend the rules, then it will be like other laps with cars following each other in train.

 

I agree it shouldnt be suspended though and instead F! fixes the overtaking problems it has.  Lewis couldnt even lap Norris without blue flags, and after he passed him he drove away from him so was faster but unable to pass.



#565 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 15,798 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 21 November 2021 - 19:51

Can anyone explain to me why Sainz wasn’t penalized for the yellow flag incident in Q3.

Sainz Sector 3 during the yellow flag was 0.2 slower than his best S3 time. 27.7 vs 27.5.

That can’t be considered lifting I think? Alonso did S3 8 seconds slower and Vettel 5, that’s slowing down.

Just 0.2 slower is barely a lift at all and might actually be an overall lap time improvement.

What am I missing?

#566 SophieB

SophieB
  • RC Forum Host

  • 24,465 posts
  • Joined: July 12

Posted 21 November 2021 - 20:07

Surprised by how few yellow flags were out today considering all the punctured cars returning to the pits, plus the beached car ahead of the VSC. I presume Latifi’s car got the VSC because of the recovery vehicle whereas before that it was, what maybe deemed out of the flag zone? But don’t slow moving cars get flagged as a potential hazard? I think this has happened before and I meant to ask then.



#567 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 17,074 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 November 2021 - 22:00

Can anyone explain to me why Sainz wasn’t penalized for the yellow flag incident in Q3.

Sainz Sector 3 during the yellow flag was 0.2 slower than his best S3 time. 27.7 vs 27.5.

That can’t be considered lifting I think? Alonso did S3 8 seconds slower and Vettel 5, that’s slowing down.

Just 0.2 slower is barely a lift at all and might actually be an overall lap time improvement.

What am I missing?

 

Did you read the Stewards decision document? He said he missed the yellow, but slowed immediately that he saw the stranded car. The Stewards reported that the telemetry confirmed this and so they did not award a penalty. Personally, I don't think "I didn't see it" should be justification for not slowing immediately - drivers should be aware - so I think he should have been given a penalty too.

 

Edit:

Here's the text:

The Stewards heard from the driver of Car 55 (Carlos Sainz), the team representative and have reviewed video, marshalling system and telemetry evidence.
 
The driver stated that although he did not see the yellow flag, he did see that Car 10 was stationary on the right of the pit straight and therefore assumed that there was the probability that he was in a yellow flag area, so made a significant reduction in speed in the relevant mini-sector. The Stewards confirmed this from the telemetry.
 
He thus complied with the Race Directors Event Notes and Appendix H of the International Sporting Code.

 

 


Edited by pdac, 21 November 2021 - 22:03.


#568 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 45,699 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 21 November 2021 - 22:08

I don't think a driver should be penalised for taking a safe course of action, like Sainz did. To have not seen the flag but slowed down anyway because he saw the danger and assumed he'd missed the flag is exactly the sort of thing that should be encouraged, not penalised.



#569 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 15,798 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 21 November 2021 - 22:10

He slowed down by 0.2.

I’m surprised this is considered ‘significant’.

#570 ANF

ANF
  • Member

  • 29,055 posts
  • Joined: April 12

Posted 21 November 2021 - 22:20

I don't think the stewards care about at his entire Sector 3 time though. They only cared about his speed after he reached the car/flag.



#571 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 15,798 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 21 November 2021 - 22:22

I don't think the stewards care about at his entire Sector 3 time though. They only cared about his speed after he reached the car/flag.


Yeah, but he wasn’t 0.5 faster in the first part of S3.

#572 flyboym3

flyboym3
  • Member

  • 1,977 posts
  • Joined: July 21

Posted 21 November 2021 - 22:24

Maybe because the stranded car was so close to the finish line the lift was considered significant relatively speaking.

#573 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 44,619 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 21 November 2021 - 22:32

Maybe because the stranded car was so close to the finish line the lift was considered significant relatively speaking.


I don't think that should be a consideration as that just leads to the driver using the excuse that they could see the incident and knew they could pass safely. It should be judged purely on the rule that was transgressed.

#574 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 15,853 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 21 November 2021 - 22:59

Surprised by how few yellow flags were out today considering all the punctured cars returning to the pits, plus the beached car ahead of the VSC. I presume Latifi’s car got the VSC because of the recovery vehicle whereas before that it was, what maybe deemed out of the flag zone? But don’t slow moving cars get flagged as a potential hazard? I think this has happened before and I meant to ask then.

 

Should be white, not yellow unless there are parts, bits and bobs on the track. A slow moving car is white flag, not yellow flag. Which is why the yellows were only used when the cars went off the circuit.

 

He slowed down by 0.2.

I’m surprised this is considered ‘significant’.

 

It's been considered enough for a long long time.

 

EDIT: I don't think that is enough at all. But FIA does FIA things.


Edited by Myrvold, 21 November 2021 - 22:59.


#575 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 17,074 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 21 November 2021 - 23:18

I don't think a driver should be penalised for taking a safe course of action, like Sainz did. To have not seen the flag but slowed down anyway because he saw the danger and assumed he'd missed the flag is exactly the sort of thing that should be encouraged, not penalised.

 

I would be fine with a reduction in the normal penalty for taking suitable action once he'd realised his mistake. But I do feel that, with no penalty, it looks to other as if all you need to do is respond AFTER you see something. That attitude is not at all a safe one.



#576 Requiem84

Requiem84
  • Member

  • 15,798 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 22 November 2021 - 06:43

Should be white, not yellow unless there are parts, bits and bobs on the track. A slow moving car is white flag, not yellow flag. Which is why the yellows were only used when the cars went off the circuit.


It's been considered enough for a long long time.

EDIT: I don't think that is enough at all. But FIA does FIA things.


If 0.2 is enough, it’s pretty crazy. On safety grounds it doesn’t make much sense to consider this significantly slowing down.

But apparently it’s consistent, so doesn’t fit this topic :-).

#577 AustinF1

AustinF1
  • Member

  • 20,436 posts
  • Joined: November 10

Posted 29 October 2022 - 23:26

I posted this in another thread, but I think the Austin race was a perfect microcosm of the strange and disproportionate penalties we see all the time in F1, and a perfect illustration of that .

 

As is evidenced by this thread, I've been railing on for years that F1 needs a coherent, sensical, proportionate slate of penalties, and a well-trained, well-compensated, well-evaluated core group of traveling Stewards to bring continuity to rule enforcement. They could still have a local steward or two at every race. They just wouldn't have to rely solely on them. The penalties as they are now are simply nonsensical, and the penalties in this race illustrated that point very clearly. 
 
- Russell causes a collision, taking out the polesitter on L1T1 ... 5 seconds
 
- Gasly dawdles a little behind the SC for a few seconds ... 5 seconds
 
- Perez and Russell drive with broken wings for most of the race ... no penalty
 
- Albon holds position after overtaking off the track ... 5 seconds + 1 point on SL (worse penalty than Russell's)
 
- Stroll causes a very dangerous collision, taking out Alonso ... 3 grid positions in Mexico + 2 SL points 
 
- Latifi causes a collision ... 5 grid positions in Mexico + 2 SL points (worse penalty than Russel's or Stroll's)
 
- Alonso loses the mirror damaged by Stroll's late move ... 30 seconds and loss of all points for the race, when the protest was filed late, when there was no warning or black & orange flag given, and when Bauer had said post-race that the car was legal. (worse penalty than Russel's or any of the others)
 
It's just bizarre.


#578 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 35,982 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 29 October 2022 - 23:44

All I look for is consistency - and the only consistency we have is inconsistency.



#579 Bleu

Bleu
  • Member

  • 6,192 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 30 October 2022 - 11:26

Russell and Gasly got 2 penalty points as well.



Advertisement

#580 Celloman

Celloman
  • Member

  • 1,591 posts
  • Joined: October 05

Posted 30 October 2022 - 11:56

All I look for is consistency - and the only consistency we have is inconsistency.

Most of these penalties handed out lately are consistent... as in consistently giving 5-second penalties for racing related incidents. It doesn't matter what you do, unless you do something very unsportsmanlike like driving into another car by purpose, the penalty is 90% of time 5 seconds and 10% of time 10 seconds maybe. So I would say these decisions are de facto consistent, but not proportional to the crime.

 

Procedural penalties like this mirror thing or not being able to provide a fuel sample, those have been consistently penalized heavier as the exact penalty is usually specified in the rule book.



#581 KWSN - DSM

KWSN - DSM
  • Member

  • 35,982 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 30 October 2022 - 12:14

Most of these penalties handed out lately are consistent... as in consistently giving 5-second penalties for racing related incidents. It doesn't matter what you do, unless you do something very unsportsmanlike like driving into another car by purpose, the penalty is 90% of time 5 seconds and 10% of time 10 seconds maybe. So I would say these decisions are de facto consistent, but not proportional to the crime.

 

Procedural penalties like this mirror thing or not being able to provide a fuel sample, those have been consistently penalized heavier as the exact penalty is usually specified in the rule book.

 

We may be talking past each other, when I say consistency I am talking about same penalty for same offence, we have a whole thread dedicated to 3 drivers not being penalized in a race for offences costing 4 drivers (counting Magnussen 3 times as different races) to be called into the pits.

 

THAT is anything but consistent.