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Are Mercedes turning into Mclaren?


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#1 Kimble

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 22:58

I have nothing against Mercedes or Mclaren as I have had very positive experiences with both teams during my years of supporting F1 but watching the last 24 hours coverage from Canada I'm really starting to see the same traits that we have typically come to expect from Mclaren. (i.e.  dropping a winning car, going 'radical', getting hung up on mushroom suspension).

 

Under the teams (now) leadership they seem to be becoming victims of their own procedures and analysis.  It's a cliche but it's like they are both missing that Ross Brawn wisdom on the pit wall or driver influence from the cockpit.  It's as if they apply the same processes and methodologies that they use in their R&D methodology on the pitwall.

 

Is anyone else starting to 'smell' the same traits?



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#2 LORDBYRON

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 23:09

 Mercedes turning into Mclaren? Are you for real. Merc are on course to win two WCC ,WDC in a row most likely be three if you think this then you are deluded 



#3 Kimble

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 23:15

 Mercedes turning into Mclaren? Are you for real. Merc are on course to win two WCC ,WDC in a row most likely be three if you think this then you are deluded 

 

 

'turning into'  is they key part here.  No doubt they have the fastest car at the moment and might go back to back WDC/WCC but the real work for this was done 2-3 years ago.  The leadership team are showing cracks in my eyes and we see the results of that in operational performance NOW and will ultimately the car performance results in the future.



#4 FrontWing

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 23:23

I have nothing against Mercedes or Mclaren as I have had very positive experiences with both teams during my years of supporting F1 but watching the last 24 hours coverage from Canada I'm really starting to see the same traits that we have typically come to expect from Mclaren. (i.e.  dropping a winning car, going 'radical', getting hung up on mushroom suspension).

 

Under the teams (now) leadership they seem to be becoming victims of their own procedures and analysis.  It's a cliche but it's like they are both missing that Ross Brawn wisdom on the pit wall or driver influence from the cockpit.  It's as if they apply the same processes and methodologies that they use in their R&D methodology on the pitwall.

 

Is anyone else starting to 'smell' the same traits?

I bloody hope not! :rotfl:

 

Seriously though, McLaren have been a disaster since 2012 and its taking a lot of money and effort to turn it around, which I'm sure they will. McLaren haven't won a WCC in 17 years and the team at Brackley are going for their 3rd in the last 6 years. I don't think there's anything to worry about at the moment. Sure they've made a few errors recently but they've also made substantially more better decision over the last few years to get to where they are. But hey, history has proven it wont last forever. 

 

If Mercedes weren't around Ferrari would be dominating! :p

At least we'll probably have 2 teams fighting it out over the next couple seasons as I'm sure Ferrari will continue to improve and match Mercedes.



#5 HeadFirst

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 23:33

Are they switching to Honda engines?



#6 balmybaldwin

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 23:35

 Mercedes turning into Mclaren? Are you for real. Merc are on course to win two WCC ,WDC in a row most likely be three if you think this then you are deluded 

 

 

If Mercedes turn into mclaren I think they'll be very pleased. They only need 7 more WCCs, 11 more WDCs and 148 more race wins.

 

As to the Op's question, there is something about matrix/committee style management that makes it work really well to start with and then disappear up it's own backside after a few years due to political infighting and posturing/blame culture. It's cyclical, and they'll move slowly to the benevolent dictator model again, and when that begins to look like wrong decisions are being made, they'll slowly go back to the committee management model again.   I think Mclaren, Ferrari, Williams, Lotus/renault etc have all gone through this a number of times in their history.



#7 ninetyzero

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 23:36

Lets see;

 

Sliver livery? Check

Mercedes engines? Check

Very fast car? Check

Lewis Hamilton driving with bloke he doesn't really get on with as team mate? Check

Amazing ability of turn winning into losing via stupid strategy/operational errors and/or poor reliability? Check

 

Yeah I'd say they're doing a pretty good job of being McLaren so far...



#8 oetzi

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 23:36

Mercedes turning into Mclaren?

They're not that bad.

#9 FerrariV12

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Posted 05 June 2015 - 23:42

McLaren circa 1988? Yeah, probably.



#10 baddog

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 00:44

Hamilton fan still sulking about Monaco?

 

Check.



#11 RealRacing

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 01:01

Over anxious Hamilton fans panicking and blaming Mercedes entirely for Monaco. It was a mistake, move on. Wanna help? Tell Lewis via fanmail that his necklaces are ridiculous.



#12 KOMORI

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 03:14

Mercedes + McLaren + Lewis = 3

A triangle has 3 sides.

Illuminati confirmed!!!

#13 KingTiger

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 03:17

They both have an uncanny ability to screw Hamilton, but so far Mercedes at least have a fast car. McLaren are the laughing stock of F1. 



#14 kvyatfan

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 03:24

Mercedes + McLaren + Lewis = 3

A triangle has 3 sides.

Illuminati confirmed!!!

 

Old news:

article-0-0F3ACBD600000578-575_468x484.j

 

I wonder why Hamilton only gets the necklace though.


Edited by kvyatfan, 06 June 2015 - 03:25.


#15 Rasputin

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 03:25

McLaren could do well with Ross Brawn's "wisdom", with his connections to the FIA, they should have had a loophole in the rules for Honda to run an engine-trailer through.

 

Nothing else of your anology makes much sense to me though.



#16 Peter0Scandlyn

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 04:24

Lets see;

 

Sliver livery? Check

Mercedes engines? Check

Very fast car? Check

Lewis Hamilton driving with bloke he doesn't really get on with as team mate? Check

Amazing ability of turn winning into losing via stupid strategy/operational errors and/or poor reliability? Check

 

Yeah I'd say they're doing a pretty good job of being McLaren so far...

 

Paddy Lowe on board? Check....



#17 grunge

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 04:50

Allowing the drivers to go against each other wheel to wheel even when it hurts the team as a whole? Check

 

 The OP actually has interesting points.



#18 sopa

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 06:59

I have nothing against Mercedes or Mclaren as I have had very positive experiences with both teams during my years of supporting F1 but watching the last 24 hours coverage from Canada I'm really starting to see the same traits that we have typically come to expect from Mclaren. (i.e.  dropping a winning car, going 'radical', getting hung up on mushroom suspension).

 

Under the teams (now) leadership they seem to be becoming victims of their own procedures and analysis.  It's a cliche but it's like they are both missing that Ross Brawn wisdom on the pit wall or driver influence from the cockpit.  It's as if they apply the same processes and methodologies that they use in their R&D methodology on the pitwall.

 

Is anyone else starting to 'smell' the same traits?

 

If you mean Mercedes has turned into the 1988 McLaren, then you are right.

 

McLaren hasn't won a WCC since 1998 and WDC since 2008. It takes a while before Mercedes becomes an "also-ran" team. However, we do not see into the future, it might happen one day... Nobody is safe from lean patches, like the recently very successful Red Bull experiences right now.



#19 Risil

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 09:48

What an accusation!



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#20 garagetinkerer

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 09:54

No disrespect OP, but come on. Mercedes had a car last year, which arguably was better than any GP car (yes, including the '88 McLaren) and yet here we are complaining about Mercedes. Mercedes will win this year as well, and if i had to wager, i'd say that it would be tighter between Mercedes and Ferrari in 2017, but Mercedes will come on top. It is a foregone conclusion unless Pirelli goes back to softer compounds altogether, which still seem to be the only pain point of Mercedes. Heck, just compare where Lotus are this year, and all they changed was an engine really. That sort of advantage wouldn't evaporate overnight.

 

The only area where i will criticise Mercedes is that they have allowed media etc. to influence their handling of affairs which were best dealt internally, but i guess that is marketing and PR for you. Bending over backwards to sell some cars i guess. I guess you could say that McLaren at times were guilty of bending over backwards for some fans/ media. That's as far as similarities go, that is if you ask my opinion on such. Mistakes happen, it is merely a part of learning as we go through racing and life. Ferrari, a team which is known for getting strategies right most of the times, even they fluffed Canada only two years ago in 2012. In my opinion, the more Mercedes run their affairs as a matter of public opinion, the mistakes will creep in more and more. 

 

Just look at this article for instance:

http://www.espn.co.u...rous-conditions

 

Here one from the press is complaining about why one driver was on track, while completely ignoring that the other was out as well. Mercedes are going to come under more and more pressure from the media, the fans, and then how can one conclude that it wouldn't influence a bit in how they're operating in public (so many PR gaffes in less than two years) and otherwise. Mercedes themselves are to blame for pandering to this lot. Hopefully Mercedes will realise it, as all this is doing, despite their bending over backwards to please fans and media, is to get Mercedes some more bad press. They should grow a spine and it is about time.



#21 P123

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 11:19

All teams screw up on strategy from time to time. Maybe you could accuse Mercedes of swamping themselves with data and failing to see the obvious at a few races this season, which is similar to McLaren (I think there is even a dedicated topic to McLaren's strategy calls).

I don't think they are comparable in any way though to McLaren's more recent obsession of 'going radical' for the sake of it, with very mixed results.

#22 Disgrace

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 11:39

Hamilton fan still sulking about Monaco?

 

Check.

 

Over anxious Hamilton fans panicking and blaming Mercedes entirely for Monaco. It was a mistake, move on. Wanna help? Tell Lewis via fanmail that his necklaces are ridiculous.

 

Let's not please.

 

Like others, I also see the similarities. Interestingly, what Hamilton went through in Monaco was exactly what he went through at Hockenheim '08 and Singapore '14, only this time he couldn't make it back through the field to complete a hat-trick of recovery wins. If Hamilton wins the next one, I fully expect him to reveal this t-shirt on the podium:

 

236914.jpg



#23 sopa

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 12:25

So the conclusion seems to be that Mercedes is like McLaren because Hamilton has been driving for them and they have made some strategy mistakes. So sure enough, if the world revolves around Hamilton, then yeah they are similar.   ;)



#24 Jamiednm

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 13:01

They look more like 2010-2013 Red Bull to me.

 

I must admit that I horrible flashbacks to McLaren 'strategy' when Merc pitted Lewis in Monaco, but I'm willing to write that off as a one off for now. McLaren managed to surprise with their ridiculous decisions and pit operations for years, 2012 being particularly 'McLaren-esque'.



#25 sopa

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 13:04

They look more like 2010-2013 Red Bull to me.

 

I must admit that I horrible flashbacks to McLaren 'strategy' when Merc pitted Lewis in Monaco, but I'm willing to write that off as a one off for now. McLaren managed to surprise with their ridiculous decisions and pit operations for years, 2012 being particularly 'McLaren-esque'.

 

Difference with 2012 is that Mercedes has a huge car advantage, so that they can even afford a few blunders and still win the title with ease.

 

Also reliability of McLaren in 2012 was below-par. Hamilton retired something like 3 times from the lead?



#26 Jamiednm

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 13:13

 

Also reliability of McLaren in 2012 was below-par. Hamilton retired something like 3 times from the lead?

 

Absolutely, and McLaren were responsible for the reliability of that car as much as its pace. When combined with the multiple, botched pit stops, the unreliability of the MP4-27 was comical - they've obviously built on that experience for 2015.



#27 Paco

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 14:00

No no I don't see it. I do see a team running scared mind you in how they are approaching decision. I can't say I have ever seen that at mclaren.

Lol, mclaren laughing stock, maybe by you only. No one is laughing and everyone knows they'll be there way sooner then you think. NBA laughed at Cleveland cave after 10games and now they're in the finals. People just have no patience for a retooling to come together. I can see mclaren in third position ie 5-6 finishing race position by the last third of the season. Soooo laughable.

#28 AustinF1

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 16:03

Semi-related, I guess. Didn't think it was worthy of its own thread...I'm still wondering why Lewis kept the front wheels locked all the way to the wall at the hairpin yesterday. Seemed like there was plenty of time to lift (3-4 seconds). Maybe something went wrong with the car? I know he hydroplaned, and he likely couldn't have stopped or gotten the car turned in time to avoid contact, but what was weird that it appeared he just kept his foot down on the brake. If he had let off all the way or part of the way, the wheels should turn again, even with all the water. I'm sure Lewis is more than quick enough to react, so that's what made it seem odd to see him hold the brake that long, with both fronts locked all the way to that wall, which isn't close to the track.

Shitty weekend for Lewis so far, but it still won't surprise me at all to see him on the pole. Looking forward to it...



#29 P123

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 16:11

Semi-related, I guess. Didn't think it was worthy of its own thread...I'm still wondering why Lewis kept the front wheels locked all the way to the wall at the hairpin yesterday. Seemed like there was plenty of time to lift (3-4 seconds). Maybe something went wrong with the car? I know he hydroplaned, and he likely couldn't have stopped or gotten the car turned in time to avoid contact, but what was weird that it appeared he just kept his foot down on the brake. If he had let off all the way or part of the way, the wheels should turn again, even with all the water. I'm sure Lewis is more than quick enough to react, so that's what made it seem odd to see him hold the brake that long, with both fronts locked all the way to that wall, which isn't close to the track.
Shitty weekend for Lewis so far, but it still won't surprise me at all to see him on the pole. Looking forward to it...


The rears were still turning, so would have to assume the fronts weren't in contact with the track, hence the very long aquaplane into the barriers. From the onboard he was coasting before he started impersonating a speedboat.

#30 garoidb

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 16:11

'turning into'  is they key part here.  No doubt they have the fastest car at the moment and might go back to back WDC/WCC but the real work for this was done 2-3 years ago.  The leadership team are showing cracks in my eyes and we see the results of that in operational performance NOW and will ultimately the car performance results in the future.

 

The interesting question will be whether Mercedes have what it takes to stay as a top team over the longish haul (the next three years, for example). Are they doing the work now that will enable that? Do they have the right people on board? It is not clear whether they are managing to eek out benefits from a one off advantage, or whether their advantage is being continuously renewed from within. 



#31 Rasputin

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 16:23

Come to think about it, Mercedes turning into 2015 McLaren shape was perhaps not the worst of ideas?