128 replies to this topic

[KingTiger]

Neither would 15" or 18" wheels. They are not safer, they don't bring a performance benefit and are basically just a marketing exercise for Michelin.

[Mat13]

Dont think the poster said HE knew better, but that most other race series see the gains in bigger wheels. The irony is theyre talking about weight increase, but making them wider increases weight as well. Its bs imo. Michelin claim otherwise, theyre the tire makers, not Lowe and Allison.

I think the weight increase from wider tyres would countered by the extra grip. I imagine Michelin would claim otherwise, it's probably much cheaper for them to supply F1 with similar to what they already produce for other series.

I'm sure BRG did mean exactly that, I just don't like sarcasm.

[Timstr11]

I am all for bigger wheels and tyres if it allows for more tyre manufacturers to competitively tender for the supply of tyres to F1.

 

As far as costs go, if they spend more on suspension to suit the 18" rims (unlikely, I would have thought) then they will spend less on other areas of the car - like aero.

 

Personally, if I was the FIA I would not take the word of the teams who, let's face it, continue to argue for the status quo.

 

I would invite one of the smaller teams (Sauber, FI, Lotus, STR) to revise the car to suit the 18" wheels. Probably confine the scope to the suspension tuning. I would get Pirelli, or Michelin, if they are interested, to build a representative tyre, and then do a back to back comparison. The funds would come from Bernie, whether he liked it or not.

 

Weight and grip coefficients (data proviided by the tyre manufacturers) are hard facts.

You don't need to run it on a car to know the effect it will have.

 

Also, given the huge aerodynamic effiect of tyres. It will take a complete car re-design from scratch. A hack job will only a produce a massively slow car.

And then we also have the vehicle dynamics. The suspension will need to be entirely different.

 

BTW, Bernie does not want Michelin.

Edited by Timstr11, 07 June 2015 - 06:03.

[DrF]

Go to 15" and then 18"?

[BRK]

What a letdown.

[ClubmanGT]

Ditch wheels, just put ball bearings on the skid plank IMO

[aguri]

The aero disadvantage that 18inch wheels bring is a good thing because it will slow the cars down. That means the FIA can free up development on other parts of the care more without worrying about speeds getting out of hand.

[PayasYouRace]

The aero disadvantage that 18inch wheels bring is a good thing because it will slow the cars down. That means the FIA can free up development on other parts of the care more without worrying about speeds getting out of hand.

 

Sure about that? The reduced deformation from the tyres means more predictable aero over and around the wheels, which is an advantage. I'm sure why you think they'd be a disadvantage.

[Ali_G]

The aero disadvantage that 18inch wheels bring is a good thing because it will slow the cars down. That means the FIA can free up development on other parts of the care more without worrying about speeds getting out of hand.

You do realise that the height of the overall wheel and tyre together will be exactly the same as it is today ?

[GenJackRipper]

Why on earth would someone want to switch to 18 inch tyres?
Formula E looks ridiculous with it's low profile tyres.

Didn't someone (a journalist) try a GP2-car around Monaco with 18-inch wheels and realize he couldn't see above the tyres when in a turn?
Sounds great...

Keep the 13 inch wheels!

[PayasYouRace]

Why on earth would someone want to switch to 18 inch tyres?
Formula E looks ridiculous with it's low profile tyres.

Didn't someone (a journalist) try a GP2-car around Monaco with 18-inch wheels and realize he couldn't see above the tyres when in a turn?
Sounds great...

Keep the 13 inch wheels!

 

Given that the tyre's overall diameter won't change, that makes no sense.

[chr1s]

It's an interesting thought though.  If you were to lock the dampers such that there was no motion in the suspension, then the sidewall would be the only significant source of suspension and the tread really would be the only unsprung weight on the car.  Are F1 cars anywhere close to that model?  How much suspension travel does a Formula 1 car have relative to its sidewall travel?

 

 

They got very close to that in the ground effect era- so close in fact that Williams did test an FW07 at Paul Ricard with locked suspension. I remember it being in an Horizon documentary on BBC2 at the time. (probably on Youtube now)  I can still remember Alan Jones' reaction as they let the jacks down!

[rpn453]

They got very close to that in the ground effect era- so close in fact that Williams did test an FW07 at Paul Ricard with locked suspension. I remember it being in an Horizon documentary on BBC2 at the time. (probably on Youtube now)  I can still remember Alan Jones' reaction as they let the jacks down!

I found it.  Interesting video.

 

Edited by rpn453, 09 June 2015 - 01:05.

[MattPete]

15 inch wheels:

 

[MattPete]

13 inch wheels:

 

[ClubmanGT]

Didn't someone (a journalist) try a GP2-car around Monaco with 18-inch wheels and realize he couldn't see above the tyres when in a turn?
Sounds great...

 

 

Given that the tyre's overall diameter won't change, that makes no sense.

 

[BullHead]

Why do aircraft wheels/tyres have the proportions they have?

[SenorSjon]

Neither would 15" or 18" wheels. They are not safer, they don't bring a performance benefit and are basically just a marketing exercise for Michelin.

 

 

They have tested it and without much optimizing they were already faster on 18". Why do you think other racecars use those big rims?

 

Why do aircraft wheels/tyres have the proportions they have?

 

Because controlled crashing (aka landing) is a whole different ballgame.

[aguri]

A common wheel size between LMP1 and F1 is a step in the right direction both cost and performance wise. 

[Jbleroi]

A common wheel size between LMP1 and F1 is a step in the right direction both cost and performance wise.

Why?

[kayemod]

Mainly for safety reasons - tolerance to overload is higher with a high aspect ratio tyre --> larger air volume --> air is compressable/acting like a spring

[for similar reasons you find high aspect ratio tyres on vehicles for rough terrain/ offroad use e.g. military & constructions maschines]

The second reason, for both applications, is that a high aspect ratio tyre ( tall sidewalls) has a better "enevelope" function ( a.k.a. cuddle factor ), meaning it can better wrap around an obstacle, while rolling over it, reducing the impact loading on the vehicle/suspension.

 

Also, planes don't do much cornering...

[Kalmake]

They got very close to that in the ground effect era- so close in fact that Williams did test an FW07 at Paul Ricard with locked suspension. I remember it being in an Horizon documentary on BBC2 at the time. (probably on Youtube now)  I can still remember Alan Jones' reaction as they let the jacks down!

McLaren did that too. It was because of rumors that Lotus 88 (twin-chassis that got banned) had no suspension.

[Kalmake]

Airplane tires have a very high slip angle to deal with crosswind landing. They sort of have to be bad at cornering so the plane doesn't dart off the runway.

 

[JtP2]

If wondering about the amount of suspension movement on current F1 cars, all you need to do is watch the onboard footage from Vettel's Ferrar in Canada. The camera, mirror base and upper front wishbone are all in line and the only time they move out of line is when clattering over a kerb. there is no visible movement under normal circumstances. So the suspension must be somewhere and the only place left is the tyres.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

Why on earth would someone want to switch to 18 inch tyres?
Formula E looks ridiculous with it's low profile tyres.

Didn't someone (a journalist) try a GP2-car around Monaco with 18-inch wheels and realize he couldn't see above the tyres when in a turn?
Sounds great...

Keep the 13 inch wheels!

Wasn't it Martin Bundle?

[V8 Fireworks]

Why do aircraft wheels/tyres have the proportions they have?

 

Because many tonnes of force goes through them

 

[V8 Fireworks]

18" looks great

[kingofspa]

15 inches look fine.

18'' not so much.Again its my opinion as opposed to people who like 18" aesthetically.

Keep the 13''

[Boing 2]

A racing car is not a mobile test bed for road cars, it is a piece of sporting equipment, like a tennis racket or a snooker cue. Its objective should be to test and display the skill of the competitor and as such it should be passive and challenging to use.

 

Road car makers pump billions ino R&D, they don't need F1 to develop anything for them, in fact I struggle to think of a single piece of road car tech that F1 has ever pioneered.

 

'Tech pioneer' is a label the PR guys came up with to attract blue chip sponsors and it has become a rock around the sports neck in recent decades.

 

Yes F1 needs to be at the top of the food chain but 'pinnacle of technology' needs to be re-defined as the 'pinnacle of racing technology' which is a subtle but significant difference.

Edited by Boing 2, 09 June 2015 - 13:33.