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Comments to Rosberg about Pirelli tyres (team radio)


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#1 Tommay

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:14

Now I've read heard and read numerous things being said about Pirelli tyres and how they chance from set to set. Today we seemed to have concrete evidence of this. When we have a single supplier of tyres, essentially making them a spec part, you expect them to be completley equal. The problem I see is that if the teams can see differences before the tyres are even worn, how different will they be degrading in the race? Obviously you can't distinguish the difference in how they degraded between drivers as there are a lot of different combinations which lead to the tyres that the teams get at the pit stop (temps, lock ups, driving styles etc) so we could be seeing large differences between Deg that are not due to the drivers/car but the structure of the tyres.

I don't know why but I have had this believe for a long time, and although I beleive it's improved compared to 2012 when I think it was more of a lottery of who got the best tyres then who was fastest (again nothing to do with cars/drivers, just the tyres).

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#2 MastaKink

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:18

What exactly was said? I couldn't make it out.



#3 hollowstar

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:21

What exactly was said? I couldn't make it out.

 

After his Q3 banker, Nico complained about rear grip and his engineer said "This is/was your worse set of tyres". 



#4 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:23

Did they say:

 

"That was the worse set of your session "

 

Or

 

"That was the worse set on your Brinell" (Brinell = hardness scale?)

 

The latter is what Brundle supposed, but I find it very hard to believe there would be a measurable difference in softness/hardness between new tyres myself.



#5 MastaKink

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:26

@Hollowstar Cheers.

 

 

I guess you can never guarantee every set is the same and it's not as bad as 2012 so i'm not going to lose much sleep over it.  I'm a bit surprised that Brundle sounded a bit taken aback by what the team said.



#6 ionutf1fan

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:27

They meant that the set was already used and for the next try will get a new set and will have better grip.

How could they know that is the worst set of tires before using it?

 

OK, now thread closed.



#7 Tommay

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:32

They meant that the set was already used and for the next try will get a new set and will have better grip.
How could they know that is the worst set of tires before using it?

OK, now thread closed.

I don't think your moderator so saying thread closed is a silly comment, just as your statement as Rosberg used two sets of new tyres in qually.

Edited by Tommay, 06 June 2015 - 18:33.


#8 Imateria

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:37

Ben Edwards did explain that the teams measure the tyres diameter at the track after putting them on the wheels and there can be a discrepency between some sets, though usually to the tune of fractions of millimiters and comes from the fact that they're hand made.

 

And do we have to spread the lie that 2012 tyres were a lottery, coming from the teams who were trying to cover that it took most of them half a year to get the set up right.



#9 ionutf1fan

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:37

That's what the local commentator said.

 

But even so, how could a team know which set of tires is better before using it, or after using it one lap?

And if it was the weakest set, why wouldn't use it in Q1?



#10 robefc

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:40

That's what the local commentator said.

 

But even so, how could a team know which set of tires is better before using it, or after using it one lap?

And if it was the weakest set, why wouldn't use it in Q1?

 

They didn't use SSofts in Q1 and they start the race on Q2 tyres.



#11 Marklar

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:41

So can somebody explain me why Rosberg was with the weak set of tyre faster in S1 then Hamilton and even faster than his lap on the better set? It sounds like an excuse to me.



#12 Tommay

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:43

That's what the local commentator said.

But even so, how could a team know which set of tires is better before using it, or after using it one lap?
And if it was the weakest set, why wouldn't use it in Q1?


Lewis and Nico saved an extra set for Q3. So they both had new sets. Although I can't answer the second question for definite, mercedes didn't use supersofts in Q1 and would not of wanted to use them in Q2 as they would of been the tyres they started on.

With people saying we are talking about fraction of a second, but in a sport where all teams are chasing that fraction I'd hate to think the tyres are the determine factor. How many times have we seen qually within this fraction? I'm not saying that results have been determined by these factors, but I believe there certainly is a case at least that small amounts of times can be gained by which set of tyres you're allocated.

#13 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:44

After his Q3 banker, Nico complained about rear grip and his engineer said "This is/was your worse set of tyres". 

I think they meant that these were his scrubbed tyres and there was a new fresh set waiting for him, nothing more.



#14 KingTiger

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:45

After a gifted and undeserved win in Monaco Rosberg should not be whining about tires.

#15 Tommay

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:46

After a gifted and undeserved win in Monaco Rosberg should not be whining about tires.


I'm not the greatest Rosberg fan, but I'd prefer to stay away from what driver it was, but more the statement made.

#16 robefc

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:46

I think they meant that these were his scrubbed tyres and there was a new fresh set waiting for him, nothing more.

 

Incorrect, they even have another spare set of ssofts on top of those they used.



#17 Marklar

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:47

I think they meant that these were his scrubbed tyres and there was a new fresh set waiting for him, nothing more.

Would have made no sense. They have 4 set of options. One used for Q2. So they can easily run two fresh set of options in Q3 and save one for the race.

 

It could be about the tyre pressures I guess, but why was his second run even slower then?


Edited by Marklar, 06 June 2015 - 18:47.


#18 rhukkas

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:47

It's pretty standard practice in motorsport o measure tyres and generally speaking they aren't all perfect.  There is a point where it's unacceptable of course, but as usual those who haven't done motorsport jump to conclusions.



#19 hollowstar

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:48

So can somebody explain me why Rosberg was with the weak set of tyre faster in S1 then Hamilton and even faster than his lap on the better set? It sounds like an excuse to me.

 

I agree. I don't think if there was an actual issue, Nico would have been only 3 tenths off pole. 



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#20 AustinF1

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:51

I don;t think it's been brought up here, but I believe what they said (pp) was that that was Nico's worst set of tires in terms of uniformity, which is right there in line with the OP's comments.



#21 OO7

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 18:58

It is a bit like no two engines being identical, there are always slight differences.  I doubt Nico's problem was tyre specific, as he complained about both sets.



#22 northanmonkee2

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 19:19

i work in production engineering at my work place and we produce precision  parts for aircraft ect

we work down to micro meter tolerances , even so there will be differnces between componants

that are noticeble but within tolerances , all tyres that are given to teams will be within whatever specified tolerance 

fia require for arguments sake say tolerance is + or - 1.5mm on diameter on a 660 mm diameter tyre 

tyre 1 =660.1mm

tyre 2 = 660.3mm

tyre 3 = 659.8 mm

tyre 4 = 660.0 mm

all tyres are within tolerance but  there are telling differences between them . 

teams will try to match all there sets that are closest to each other so 1 set out of the 3 or 4 will have the greatest differances

betwwen them  , would of thought that they wouldnt  use them in q3 though like with rosberg 


Edited by northanmonkee2, 06 June 2015 - 19:20.


#23 Whatisvalis

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 19:31

I don't believe they can break the tyre sets up, they have to use what is given.

#24 northanmonkee2

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 19:40

I don't believe they can break the tyre sets up, they have to use what is given.

all depends on how the tyres are presnted to the teams  ie as a group of 12 or three groups of 4 



#25 pdac

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 21:23

I thought David Coulthard explained it well - he suggested that he was not using a new set and that was the set that had already been identified as bad. He pointed out that all the Pirelli tyre are finished off by hand and so each tyre can be different.

 

Oh, and he also pointed out that you are not allowed to mix the tyres up - each tyre must be used as part of the set they are isued as.


Edited by pdac, 06 June 2015 - 21:24.


#26 northanmonkee2

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 22:13

I thought David Coulthard explained it well - he suggested that he was not using a new set and that was the set that had already been identified as bad. He pointed out that all the Pirelli tyre are finished off by hand and so each tyre can be different.

 

Oh, and he also pointed out that you are not allowed to mix the tyres up - each tyre must be used as part of the set they are isued as.

 

it was a brand  new set for ist run in q3   according to f1   timing app ,

 he used 1 set of softs in q1 only

 he used 1 set of super softs  in q2  (the ones he starts the race with ) he didnt  go out for 2nd attempt following advice from team 

q 3 he used  two brand new sets of  super softs  on two seperate runs  first  were the supposed bad set  2nd run were supposed to be better but  he was actually slower on 2nd run

he has to hand one set back of his q3 tyres 

tbh  not sure how teams are issued tyres .

pretty sure  all teams  mount and balance tyres on there own wheels after pirelli issue them ,

but if there issued in  groups of  4 as dc mentions then they cant mix individual tyres obvouisly  .

but they can sort and  save the best uniform tyre sets   for critical parts of the weekend , which i found strange that merc 

used a set in q3 that nico s  engineer said were the worst set .



#27 goingthedistance

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 22:42

People are only just figuring this out? That these tyres vary set to set has been known info for years. I remember Helmut Marko bitching about it (bluntly) a few years back.

It's not satisfactory, but not much is in F1 these days.

#28 Marklar

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 22:44

AMuS reporting that this "bad" set of tyre was the extra Q3 tyre which the teams get just before the Q3 and they can't prepare it like the other tyres because they have no time. Rosberg didn't really believe this and made changes on his front wing and the tyre pressure which causes oversteering on his second run. Anyway it doesn't matter: Hamilton had the same tyres and managed it better.

Edited by Marklar, 06 June 2015 - 22:45.


#29 alfa1

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 23:03

 I remember Helmut Marko bitching about it (bluntly) a few years back.

 

I remember Murray Walker talking about it back in the early 90's.

 

There have always been slight differences in tyres.



#30 northanmonkee2

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Posted 06 June 2015 - 23:56

https://twitter.com/...333128332386304

#31 Alexandros

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 00:10

Tires being different to one another is a pretty old "issue". Actually, even the cars themselves, or the engines, have different feel or performance, despite the fact that they are being made to be identical.

 

Some times a driver will say "I don't know what happened" or that he "lacked grip on his Xth try" or "on the Xth stint" and all will be blamed on him for not doing his best and finding excuses, until a day like this where the team will actually confirm the existence of different levels of performance between sets / getting hampered by a "bad set".



#32 Marklar

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 00:37

https://twitter.com/...333128332386304


AMuS reported it different. The set wasn't bad in general. They couldnt just prepare it like the other tyres. That's why they called it bad set. But the same was with Hamilton and he just managed it better.

#33 HeadFirst

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 03:39

Drivers complain about tires and grip all the time, but because Nico says it we need a new thread????



#34 hollowstar

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 05:46

Drivers complain about tires and grip all the time, but because Nico says it we need a new thread????


They usually complain about tyres at the end of long stints, not in Q3 after 3 laps... I thought the thread was deserved.

#35 amppatel

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 06:03

In that motorsport article, Rosberg said that based on the first bad set he changed his set-up for the final Q3 run. He couldn't challenge for pole because of himself (or his side of the garage). Why would you change your set-up based on an anomalous set of tyres?



#36 mangeliiito

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 07:08

The tales of bad set started already in 2011. The tyres could differ alot depending on where in the plane the tyres have been transported. I remember Schumacher, Webber and Button(?) complaining alot about how the tyres were very different fron set to set of the same compund. Of course I don't remember the sources, and I'm too tired to google. Apparantly I only post here while I'm tired. But I do have a blurry image of a big plane and a big headline alot of people missed.

#37 rhukkas

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 07:52

there's a difference between compound differences and deformation.



#38 alfa1

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 07:55

The tales of bad set started already in 2011.

 

The tales of bad set started decades ago.

Just doing a search of the archives of this very forum, here are a few comments from the year 2000...

 

you just say you got a bad set of tyres.

 

("brake failure", "bad set of tires", etc.).

 

2 naff pit stops and a bad set of tyres.

 

Maybe a bad set of tires for the second stint?

 

having a bad set of tires

 

Lucking out with a ~bad~ set of tires.

 

he musta got stuck with a bad set of tyres

 

it was a bad set of rubber.

 

the driver will simply claim a bad set of tires

 

 

I honestly don't know why people are getting upset about this thing like its something new and worthy of a new thread, or any suspicion that it is something related to Pirelli that a different manufacturer would solve.



#39 superdelphinus

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 08:19

I remember Murray Walker talking about it back in the early 90's.

There have always been slight differences in tyres.


And I imagine the difference between components was a lot bigger then than it is now

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#40 AustinF1

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 08:30

In that motorsport article, Rosberg said that based on the first bad set he changed his set-up for the final Q3 run. He couldn't challenge for pole because of himself (or his side of the garage). Why would you change your set-up based on an anomalous set of tyres?

FWIW, he was saying he didn't know if the loss of rear grip was all down to the bad set of tires or if the car balance was changing. He said it was down to guesswork, so he took off some front wing.


Edited by AustinF1, 07 June 2015 - 08:30.


#41 AustinF1

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 08:35

Drivers complain about tires and grip all the time, but because Nico says it we need a new thread????

The op is more about what the team said on the radio about the tires afaik.



#42 Jvr

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Posted 07 June 2015 - 11:44

This is quite interesting reading how a team knows a bad set from a good one and why this one was there for Nico:

 

http://www.motorspor...set-of-q3-tyres