114 replies to this topic

[BoschKurve]

How many have watched full races of entire season from whatever glorified era they want? Was every race up to quality? If you didn't pls do and let us know.

What I'm trying to say is, try giving the sport some latitude. Let's not fantasize what we want without accepting reality.

 

I constantly rewatch seasons, and every season has had races that were snooze-fests. But this is true of all motor racing.

 

But when the entire season is looked at as a whole, they were far better than anything that currently is on offer from F1. 

 

Reality is that F1 is complete **** now, and many are desperately rationalizing it by trying to say the past wasn't any more interesting. They say, "Well if you watched it you'd see it was just as boring," without ever having themselves done too much watching. If you watch it with plenty of information about what was going on during those seasons, the ability to watch, and enjoy what you're watching increases drastically.

[ViMaMo]

I constantly rewatch seasons, and every season has had races that were snooze-fests. But this is true of all motor racing.

But when the entire season is looked at as a whole, they were far better than anything that currently is on offer from F1.

Reality is that F1 is complete **** now, and many are desperately rationalizing it by trying to say the past wasn't any more interesting. They say, "Well if you watched it you'd see it was just as boring," without ever having themselves done too much watching. If you watch it with plenty of information about what was going on during those seasons, the ability to watch, and enjoy what you're watching increases drastically.

Doesn't that have to do with competition? Where were those numerous overtakings?

Let me tell you. 2001 was a fantastic year not because Ferrari won the championship but because of resurgence of Williams. I saw Montoya taken out in the Brazilian GP much to my disappointment. And it was great to see Williams BMW win races that year.

What is missing from F1 from past years is a intense battle for WDC. Think about it. Restricted testing, design freeze..... I hate these two to a certain degree with much hatred.

Edited by ViMaMo, 11 June 2015 - 15:41.

[tifosi]

What is missing from F1 from past years is a intense battle for WDC. Think about it. Restricted testing, design freeze..... I hate these two to a certain degree with much hatred.

 

   That's what has done it for me.  Basically, the FIA has said, that's it Mercedes is the WDC for the next 3 years, nobody else is allowed to compete.

   Even in 1988, as a Ferrari fan I eagerly awaited each and every race, because even though Honda was literally a lap ahead of everyone in the field, you knew there was that small chance, that a team could develop something that would make a difference.

 

   Now, it's just wait for 2017 and hope something changes.

[Pingguest]

Times have changed. From a financial as well as a ecological point of view, restrictions on mid-season development are a necessity.

[PayasYouRace]

Just as a note, only 9 drivers would have scored so far this season if we had the pre-2003 points system.

I think that says a lot, and all negative at that

 

For reference, No. of points scorers after 7 races:

 

2002: 15

2001: 16

2000: 14

1999: 16

1998: 14

1997: 16

1996: 16

1995: 14

1994: 20

1993: 17

1992: 16

1991: 19

 

But what does it say a lot about? Was there more competition back then, or was the entire field less reliable? Well the latter is certainly true.

 

Now this year, with the current points system, we have 17 scorers so far, so the points system appears appropriate. It's apparently just as hard to score points now as it was then.

 

Is the point about scoring points, or is it that the points just represented the competition for the upper places better back then?

[BoschKurve]

Doesn't that have to do with competition? Where were those numerous overtakings?

Let me tell you. 2001 was a fantastic year not because Ferrari won the championship but because of resurgence of Williams. I saw Montoya taken out in the Brazilian GP much to my disappointment. And it was great to see Williams BMW win races that year.

What is missing from F1 from past years is a intense battle for WDC. Think about it. Restricted testing, design freeze..... I hate these two to a certain degree with much hatred.

 

I have zero problem rewatching the 2002 season in spite of the Ferrari dominance. It's far more preferable to today's racing based on the fact that at least I get to see cars being driven hard and fast, as opposed to watching an exercise in conservation unfolding from start to finish. I'd also rather watch 1988 or 1992 for that matter.

 

I also thinking overtaking is overrated as hell. DRS showed how worthless it can actually be. I'd rather see smart battles for overtaking than the silly low drag pass on the main straight of a Tilkedrome.

 

I can only imagine what kind of lengthy piece we would have gotten from Denis Jenkinson were he alive to see the current abomination.

[BoschKurve]

Times have changed. From a financial as well as a ecological point of view, restrictions on mid-season development are a necessity.

 

No, they're really not a necessity.

 

Teams will spend whatever they can spend every year. Restricting everything doesn't somehow prevent them from doing this, nor does it somehow encourage frugality.

 

The teams have a spending problem that can only be rectified should they have any real desire to do so.

 

I have no sympathy for Sauber in particular because no one is telling them to go spend the money that they do to achieve terrible results. That's an organizational problem that needs to be addressed internally.

[ViMaMo]

I have zero problem rewatching the 2002 season in spite of the Ferrari dominance. It's far more preferable to today's racing based on the fact that at least I get to see cars being driven hard and fast, as opposed to watching an exercise in conservation unfolding from start to finish. I'd also rather watch 1988 or 1992 for that matter.

I also thinking overtaking is overrated as hell. DRS showed how worthless it can actually be. I'd rather see smart battles for overtaking than the silly low drag pass on the main straight of a Tilkedrome.

I can only imagine what kind of lengthy piece we would have gotten from Denis Jenkinson were he alive to see the current abomination.

The fans ask so many things and so varied its just impossible to cater to.

How many do like 2002 season?

I think the pirelli cheese tyres couple of seasons ago was so bad (since they were driving so conservatively) but fans loved the races. Whereas let's look at the tyres Bridge stone brought in their final season, they were so durable but races were a bore. Fans hated it.

[KingTiger]

No, they're really not a necessity.

 

Teams will spend whatever they can spend every year. Restricting everything doesn't somehow prevent them from doing this, nor does it somehow encourage frugality.

 

The teams have a spending problem that can only be rectified should they have any real desire to do so.

 

I have no sympathy for Sauber in particular because no one is telling them to go spend the money that they do to achieve terrible results. That's an organizational problem that needs to be addressed internally.

 

That is just not true. Teams will spend whatever their budget is, but the impact of the last 50-100 million right now is very low. It gives the middle teams a real chance to compete, which they did not have before. 

[Jimisgod]

F1's current collapse started the moment they "fixed" the Pirelli tyres by eliminating them as any factor. Look at 2013 up until the tyre changes; Ferrari and Lotus were race winners, then utter RBR domination followed by utter Mercedes domination. The tyre situation give another point of differentiation for the teams, one that wasn't correlated with speed. Now the tyres all last a million laps and everyone follows basically a single strategy.

 

Not that racing was perfect beforehand, but that sent it into a tailspin. The only good races for the time since that change were wet, and even one of those was pretty bad.

[f1RacingForever]

F1's current collapse started the moment they "fixed" the Pirelli tyres by eliminating them as any factor. Look at 2013 up until the tyre changes; Ferrari and Lotus were race winners, then utter RBR domination followed by utter Mercedes domination. The tyre situation give another point of differentiation for the teams, one that wasn't correlated with speed. Now the tyres all last a million laps and everyone follows basically a single strategy.

 

Not that racing was perfect beforehand, but that sent it into a tailspin. The only good races for the time since that change were wet, and even one of those was pretty bad.

To be fair, redbull were dominant in 2010 on bridgestones. Its was some fine driving by fernando and poor reliability that kept the championship going for so long. Seasons with 2 very competitive top teams is the exception not the norm. If bridgestones were still being used this season, Mercedes would be even more dominant imo.

[BoschKurve]

The fans ask so many things and so varied its just impossible to cater to.

How many do like 2002 season?

I think the pirelli cheese tyres couple of seasons ago was so bad (since they were driving so conservatively) but fans loved the races. Whereas let's look at the tyres Bridge stone brought in their final season, they were so durable but races were a bore. Fans hated it.

 

The problem isn't just the tires, it's the fact that the engines at the time were nearly identical. 

 

As I said, you need power to overtake, and if the engines are roughly the same, you're not going to be overtaking. 

Edited by BoschKurve, 12 June 2015 - 12:28.

[BoschKurve]

F1's current collapse started the moment they "fixed" the Pirelli tyres by eliminating them as any factor. Look at 2013 up until the tyre changes; Ferrari and Lotus were race winners, then utter RBR domination followed by utter Mercedes domination. The tyre situation give another point of differentiation for the teams, one that wasn't correlated with speed. Now the tyres all last a million laps and everyone follows basically a single strategy.

 

Not that racing was perfect beforehand, but that sent it into a tailspin. The only good races for the time since that change were wet, and even one of those was pretty bad.

 

F1's collapse goes back to about 8 years ago when they started restricting the V8 engines, and then followed it up with the 2009 rule changes.

 

The tires were brought in to try and create unpredictability in what had turned into Formula 1 Spec Racing Edition. They got that for 2012, and then tried to go even more extreme in 2013. 

 

Sorry, I don't buy the tire crap as a decline in excitement. Then again I don't want tires to create a lottery effect that cheapens the entire thing which is all the Pirelli's have done. 

 

Currently everyone is on the same strategy seemingly because there is zero incentive to even push any longer, the tires prevent that, and the fuel consumption rules prevent that. 

[BoschKurve]

That is just not true. Teams will spend whatever their budget is, but the impact of the last 50-100 million right now is very low. It gives the middle teams a real chance to compete, which they did not have before. 

 

Spots 1 thru 10 are guaranteed a FOM payout at the end of the year. 

 

Smart move is to field a car that is within the 107% rule and collect your prize money at the end of the year, all while focusing on building either a Monaco-spec or Monza-spec package and try to get your points then. 

 

The teams have no real chance to compete unless your idea of competing is finishing 12th instead of 15th. Competing to me is battling for the top 5-6 spots. 

[ViMaMo]

The problem isn't just the tires, it's the fact that the engines at the time were nearly identical.

As I said, you need power to overtake, and if the engines are roughly the same, you're not going to be overtaking.

Which is why it might be a good idea to offer teams either DRS+MGU-K or just lighter machines without these gimmicks. Try to balance out the advantage by periodically re evaluating basic weight of the car.

So you have two types of cars with different characteristics. Overtaking is back?