71 replies to this topic

[Silverstone96]

Much has been made of Red Bull but Renault are no worse than last year, the car is poor too this year because Newey's designed a half arsed car as his heart is no longer in F1.

Such is the commitment needed either you're in or you're out, it's time for him to decide.

Felt sorry for Ricciardo yesterday, his talent deserves so much more

[Brazzers]

How can you possibly know he was half-hearted in designing the car?

 

I suspect part of the problem may also rely on Red Bull's technical staff moving onto other teams. 

[Jordan44]

You can't say one person is responsible solely for the competitiveness of that car. They've had so many staff changes and it might take a few years to get the structure back to what it was. However Red Bull want you to think otherwise.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the credit Adrian Newey received for Red Bull domination made him one of the most overrated designers on the grid. Not surprised Peter Prodromou left when he got nearly no credit for a winning aero concept four years in a row. I don't think Newey's input has the impact the media make out.

Edited by J0rd4n, 07 June 2015 - 13:26.

[Norm]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the credit Adrian Newey received for Red Bull domination made him one of the most overrated designers on the grid. Not surprised Peter Prodromou left when he got nearly no credit for a winning aero concept four years in a row. I don't think Newey's input has the impact the media make out.

 

Newey was considered the best aero man in the business long before his Red Bull days. To use the term "overrated" in reference to Newey screams ignorance on your behalf.

[hittheapex]

Newey was considered the best aero man in the business long before his Red Bull days. To use the term "overrated" in reference to Newey screams ignorance on your behalf.

I disagree. I think what he's getting at, correct me if I'm wrong Jordan, is that Red Bull's success is down to more than one man. Putting Newey on a pedestal became a way to undermine Vettel's achievements. After all, Newey didn't have anything near the same strike rate at McLaren, and his first two cars he can be credited with at Red Bull, the 2007 and 2008 challengers, were midgrid. Is he important and talented? Absolutely, very much so. But the big teams have 150-200 people dedicated to designing the car.

[Norm]

Right, and I guess his time at Williams is forgotten? Everywhere he has gone he has won multiple titles. Figure it out.

[DILLIGAF]

Much has been made of Red Bull but Renault are no worse than last year, the car is poor too this year because Newey's designed a half arsed car as his heart is no longer in F1.

Such is the commitment needed either you're in or you're out, it's time for him to decide.

Felt sorry for Ricciardo yesterday, his talent deserves so much more

I think Renault are definitely worse than last year when it comes to the engine's reliability and ability to make the same power advances as its competitors. Look at the jump forward that Ferrari has made with its engine compared to Renault.
I also think that the car is actually a good one, it just has a sh*t motor at the back of it. Renault simply produced a lemon and will never catch the other manufacturers with the current regulations.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 07 June 2015 - 14:36.

[grichka]

RedBull domination was mainly due to blowing technology which was developed by Renault engineers for which they never received much credit. McLaren seemed to have better "base" aero in 2010-2012 years.

Edited by grichka, 07 June 2015 - 14:36.

[hittheapex]

Right, and I guess his time at Williams is forgotten? Everywhere he has gone he has won multiple titles. Figure it out.

You're missing the point. Newey's success was never down to one man, just like his struggles and failures weren't down to one man. He didn't put his feet up at McLaren or lose it. He joined a McLaren team that wasn't as strong as it had been in that purple patch of 1984-1991. It's not a coincidence that Red Bull are struggling this year after other key people were poached by other teams.

 

I might come across as a know-it-all with this point, but he didn't win titles in his 3 seasons at Leyton House. Again, even the best such as Newey, Gordon Murray, need a good team of people to help them make their creative vision a reality. His title winning periods, cars in brackets below:

 

9 titles at Williams over 7 seasons (1991-1997)

3 titles at McLaren over 8 seasons (1998-2005)

8 titles at Red Bull over 8 seasons (2007-2014, he's not as active in the team as he once was and didn't have much opportunity to influence the 2006 car)

 

The McLaren period is conspicuous next to Williams and Red Bull in terms of success. It's not bad by any means, but not anywhere near his top operating level. His title "strike rate" is less than 40% what he achieved at Red Bull per season and less than 30% of what he achieved at Williams per season (on average). McLaren didn't want for facilities, or money, so what was missing? A way for all that talent under one roof to operate as a cohesive team. Even in Red Bull's first season, Horner's shake up of the team produced better results than Ford managed with all their dollars. It's also notable that Newey was able to achieve success immediately at Williams but with 15 years more experience, took longer at Red Bull. He's very talented, but like anybody else at that level he needs a good supporting team of people.

Edited by hittheapex, 07 June 2015 - 14:53.

[DeKnyff]

RedBull domination was mainly due to blowing technology which was developed by Renault engineers for which they never received much credit. McLaren seemed to have better "base" aero in 2010-2012 years.

 

However, it was McLaren who hired a RedBull aerodynamicist and not the other way round.

 

Concerning Newey, my POV is that he must be, above all, a great manager, you don't win Championships just by making good aero cars, you have to integrate all components in a balanced package and find a compromise among all departments.

[Norm]

You're missing the point. Newey's success was never down to one man, just like his struggles and failures weren't down to one man. He didn't put his feet up at McLaren or lose it. He joined a McLaren team that wasn't as strong as it had been in that purple patch of 1984-1991. It's not a coincidence that Red Bull are struggling this year after other key people were poached by other teams.

 

I might come across as a know-it-all with this point, but he didn't win titles in his 3 seasons at Leyton House. Again, even the best such as Newey, Gordon Murray, need a good team of people to help them make their creative vision a reality. His title winning periods, cars in brackets below:

 

9 titles at Williams over 7 seasons (1991-1997)

3 titles at McLaren over 8 seasons (1998-2005)

8 titles at Red Bull over 8 seasons (2007-2014, he's not as active in the team as he once was and didn't have much opportunity to influence the 2006 car)

 

The McLaren period is conspicuous next to Williams and Red Bull in terms of success. It's not bad by any means, but not anywhere near his top operating level. His title "strike rate" is less than 40% what he achieved at Red Bull per season and less than 30% of what he achieved at Williams per season (on average). McLaren didn't want for facilities, or money, so what was missing? A way for all that talent under one roof to operate as a cohesive team. Even in Red Bull's first season, Horner's shake up of the team produced better results than Ford managed with all their dollars. It's also notable that Newey was able to achieve success immediately at Williams but with 15 years more experience, took longer at Red Bull. He's very talented, but like anybody else at that level he needs a good supporting team of people.

 

The point is/was, is that Newey is not overrated.

 

What was the difference at Macca? Who knows, I do know that they have only won one title since he left. Maybe a dream team at Ferrari had something to do with only taking home three titles. Only three... lol

 

I do not argue that it takes a team of individuals to win, my point is that if you have Newey on your team the chances of you winning a championship greatly increase. What other individual currently in F1 has had more success than Newey?

 

My issue was with your man stating that he is overrated. I disagree and so do Red Bull. So much so they have spent millions constructing a new facility to allow this overrated man to build boats. I don't know of any other overrated areo guys having corporations building massive non f1 related facilities for them.

Edited by Norm, 07 June 2015 - 15:36.

[PassWind]

To summarise this thread and all the others on the Internet vs Newey

 

The Internet "Blah blah blah, opinionated blah blah blah. I know blah blah blah, just one man blah blah blah. I fail at analysis blah blah blah the end"

 

Newey "I dunno, I just make em fast with paper, pencils and stuff!"

 

Internets - 0

 

Newey - 2 x CART titles, 2 x Indy 500's, 20 x F1 titles, OBE, wealthy, healthy and doesn't give a **** what the internet thinks. 

 

Newey was winning car races while Billy Gates was still working out a functional GUI Windows 1.0 let alone there being a internet filled with assholes with opinions. While this cynic uses the same medium to debase the sum of all assholes "The Internet" Newey is the epitome of "Facta Non Verba" while the naysayers are masters of the ivory tower. 

[ViMaMo]

Newey over rated? He is one of the gurus!! New to F1?

[Silverstone96]

The point is Newey was/is a great designer and more importantly a great leader, a lot of Red Bull's success is down to what Adrian put in place and the aero direction he took in 2009.

However his part time role now is hurting the team, F1 demands 100% commitment and I don't think he has this right now.

[Gorma]

RedBull domination was mainly due to blowing technology which was developed by Renault engineers for which they never received much credit.

No it wasn't. Exhaust blowing has been Newey's idea from the beginning. He even tried to get it working in the MP4-18A already in 2003 but was not successful. 

[HP]

In all fairness it should be mentioned, that Newey sometimes got it wrong too. Also in F1 he was working with well funded teams.Someone could be the greatest design genius, but if nobody is paying the bills, that person hardly would get proper recognition.

 

His reduced commitment is understandable however. When design restrictions get greater every year and they can run a computer program through the remaining design options, it's hard to stay fully committed.

[Dr. Austin]

Every team in the paddock would hire Newey if they could.

[Jordan44]

I disagree. I think what he's getting at, correct me if I'm wrong Jordan, is that Red Bull's success is down to more than one man. Putting Newey on a pedestal became a way to undermine Vettel's achievements. After all, Newey didn't have anything near the same strike rate at McLaren, and his first two cars he can be credited with at Red Bull, the 2007 and 2008 challengers, were midgrid. Is he important and talented? Absolutely, very much so. But the big teams have 150-200 people dedicated to designing the car.

That's what I was attempting to say, yes.

[Jordan44]

Newey over rated? He is one of the gurus!! New to F1?

No. You just didn't understand what I was saying...

Every team in the paddock would hire Newey if they could.

No one is disputing that.

Edited by J0rd4n, 07 June 2015 - 17:28.

[Fisico54]

In all fairness it should be mentioned, that Newey sometimes got it wrong too. Also in F1 he was working with well funded teams.Someone could be the greatest design genius, but if nobody is paying the bills, that person hardly would get proper recognition.
.

Except when he wasn't - his success at Leyton House/March

[Talisman]

No it wasn't. Exhaust blowing has been Newey's idea from the beginning. He even tried to get it working in the MP4-18A already in 2003 but was not successful.

No, the idea is much older than that and a form of it was around in the 80s. Exhausts used to emerge through the under chassis for years and the phenomenon was noted and used then. It was only abandoned for a while once exhausts were routed through the top of the car back in the 90s I believe.

[tmekt]

No. You just didn't understand what I was saying...

"the credit Adrian Newey received for Red Bull domination made him one of the most overrated designers on the grid"

 

Tell me what this is other than calling him overrated.

[Paco]

Newey and redbull very public discussed how he was stepping aside from the day to day design department and off loaded a lot of his role to others and a more oversight role and other tasks more personal like boats and other things with redbull. So why blame him now that he's on gardening leave, much like schumi and Denis needed time away to recharge. He like many of us are tired of the design restrictions and lack of ability for design innovation and was very public about it.

[ViMaMo]

No. You just didn't understand what I was saying...


No one is disputing that.

 

 

Success is about team work. Its also about one person who can make the better difference. Some of the posts seems to suggest he happened to be in the right place at the right time.   James Allison happened to join Ferrari when they were juusst about to bounce back, after a few wild years; right?!

Edited by ViMaMo, 08 June 2015 - 07:02.

[velgajski1]

Newey was considered the best aero man in the business long before his Red Bull days. To use the term "overrated" in reference to Newey screams ignorance on your behalf.

 

I disagree with this - I don't think terms 'best' and 'overrated' are mutually exclusive. Newey was made to look like a god of aerodesign during his RBR days so in that sense he was overrated. Vettel detractors so often said its the Newey that won those races. It's not just Newey otherwise I'm sure RBR wouldn't have top engineers at all levels of their organisation. Newey probably was the guy that made the difference, but without whole RBR team being made from top level guys he wouldn't be able to do much.

Edited by velgajski1, 08 June 2015 - 07:39.

[SpeedRacer`]

I disagree. I think what he's getting at, correct me if I'm wrong Jordan, is that Red Bull's success is down to more than one man. Putting Newey on a pedestal became a way to undermine Vettel's achievements. After all, Newey didn't have anything near the same strike rate at McLaren, and his first two cars he can be credited with at Red Bull, the 2007 and 2008 challengers, were midgrid. Is he important and talented? Absolutely, very much so. But the big teams have 150-200 people dedicated to designing the car.

 

Well actually his 2008 car was a race winning car, with a Ferrari engine...

[Talisman]

It's not just Newey otherwise I'm sure RBR wouldn't have top engineers at all levels of their organisation. Newey probably was the guy that made the difference, but without whole RBR team being made from top level guys he wouldn't be able to do much.

 

Exactly.

IMO while people like Newey make a difference the guys who do the real work are the mid/senior level engineers and project leaders whose names rarely if ever appear in the press.  If you don't have a core group of highly experienced and skilled engineers then no big names will be enough to turn the project around.

Or put it another way, if Newey worked 24/7 to sort out the Manor/Marussia does anyone really think they'd be winning races or even being anything other than plum last?

[Baddoer]

RBR should snap J.Key asap.

[Paco]

Of course he's the biggest influence. Look how all the teams he left due when he leaves, Williams, mclaren and now redbull. It's not only his design but approach and how he gets the most out of everyone around him. After a while, once he steps aside that breaks down and the new people try and forge their own way and it inevitably is less successful.

Plus, once your down on power like the Renault is, you have to start pushing beyond the limit in other areas and it causes other problems downstream. So even though other renault a May look better, it's a symptom of the engine. There's only so much can do if your down on power.. Seeking to make up for it will always cause problems of I balance in the car..

[Talisman]

Of course he's the biggest influence. Look how all the teams he left due when he leaves, Williams, mclaren and now redbull. It's not only his design but approach and how he gets the most out of everyone around him. After a while, once he steps aside that breaks down and the new people try and forge their own way and it inevitably is less successful.

 

Or is he just smarter at knowing when to jump ship?

 

He left Williams around the same time they lost both works Renault status and Rothmans sponsorship.  He joined McLaren just as they had restructured after landing a works Mercedes supply with West sponsorship.  He left McLaren for RBR where the latter was receiving a massive injection of cash, restructuring with a works engine deal and a large expansion of the engineering team.  They also of course gave him time off to go racing which McLaren wasn't keen to do.  And now the Renault hasn't been competitive for the last two years...

 

What would have been interesting is to have seen him go to Jaguar in 2001/2 to see what he could have done with the mess there.

Edited by Talisman, 08 June 2015 - 12:23.

[hittheapex]

RBR should snap J.Key asap.

I agree. I know RBR have lost some people and Newey is taking a step back now, but their performance has been highly impressive considering their lower budget.

[ViMaMo]

Exactly.

IMO while people like Newey make a difference the guys who do the real work are the mid/senior level engineers and project leaders whose names rarely if ever appear in the press.  If you don't have a core group of highly experienced and skilled engineers then no big names will be enough to turn the project around.

Or put it another way, if Newey worked 24/7 to sort out the Manor/Marussia does anyone really think they'd be winning races or even being anything other than plum last?

 

And you could make a movie without a director..... an over rated role.  

Edited by ViMaMo, 08 June 2015 - 12:53.

[kevinracefan]

Much has been made of Red Bull but Renault are no worse than last year, the car is poor too this year because Newey's designed a half arsed car as his heart is no longer in F1.

Such is the commitment needed either you're in or you're out, it's time for him to decide.

Felt sorry for Ricciardo yesterday, his talent deserves so much more

Clown Talk, Bro...

Adrian Newey has EARNED the right to step back if he wants...

A less involved Adrian Newey is still better than almost anyone out there...

If and when Red Bull determine there's a better man out there they cam make that change if they choose to...

[kevinracefan]

RedBull domination was mainly due to blowing technology which was developed by Renault engineers for which they never received much credit. McLaren seemed to have better "base" aero in 2010-2012 years.

uhh.. McLaren were the first to use blown diffuser technology... Adrian and Renno just did it better..

[Paco]

So people saying he is overrated. If you were starting a team.. Who would you want establishing your design team, you saying he wouldn't be in your top 3 headhunting list.. If not numbero uno.

Edited by Paco, 08 June 2015 - 13:21.

[V8 Fireworks]

Much has been made of Red Bull but Renault are no worse than last year, the car is poor too this year because Newey's designed a half arsed car as his heart is no longer in F1.
 

 

He didn't design the car!

 

 

Mr Marshall designed the car 

[V8 Fireworks]

Newey was made to look like a god of aerodesign during his RBR days 

 

1. Peter Prodromou designed the aero ;)

[Jordan44]

"the credit Adrian Newey received for Red Bull domination made him one of the most overrated designers on the grid"

 

Tell me what this is other than calling him overrated.

 

That people think he is responsible for every nook and cranny on that car, and Red Bull didn't give enough to credit to Prodromou, or their engine supplier for their work on the blown exhaust effect. He got far too much credit for the RB domination period. It got quite annoying.

 

My point? He might be a genius and has done good things for Red Bull. But when it goes wrong can you blame Newey? Absolutely not. RBR is made up of more than just Newey, but the way he was portrayed in the media during their domination period is probably what is responsible for this culture of blaming him.

 

Red Bull have lost loads of key staff over the last few seasons. All of those leaving and adequate replacements not being put in place is where the issue lies. Not just Newey's lack of involvement.

 

 

 

1. Peter Prodromou designed the aero ;)

 

 

This is a prime example of it. People think Newey masterminded the aero, masterminded those insane levels of downforce that the RB cars had. But actually he didn't. Peter Prodomou did, yet he rarely gets credit for it. I only know his name because he jumped to McLaren...

 

Would the cars still have insane levels of downforce if Newey didn't have a Prodromou type person or Prodromou didn't have a Newey type person? Probably not. As they say, no I in team.

Edited by J0rd4n, 08 June 2015 - 15:15.

[kevinracefan]

Adrian's title is / was Technical Director...

typically, the technical director gets all credit... IN EVERY TEAM...

he manages all those under him, AND THEIR IDEAS...

winners of 4 consecutive titles are NEVER OVER-RATED... NEVER..

[Jon83]

They've lost other people as well.

 

It wouldn't matter though anyway - the engine is not good enough.

[Jordan44]

Adrian's title is / was Technical Director...

typically, the technical director gets all credit... IN EVERY TEAM...

he manages all those under him, AND THEIR IDEAS...

winners of 4 consecutive titles are NEVER OVER-RATED... NEVER..

 

Still skipping the point of this argument. If Newey is, as you say, just a manager, then once the foundations are in place and he reduces his commitments, the team should be able to continue with the same structure and succeed. But that hasn't happened. So has the loss of other people affected them too? Yes. Case closed. He's not overrated because he isn't really a genius, he's overrated because Red Bull simply gave him too much credit and now there's a blame culture that the decline of Red Bull is all down to him.

Edited by J0rd4n, 08 June 2015 - 15:31.

[kevinracefan]

based on your logic, he was over-rated at Williams and McLaren, too...

the concepts and packaging come from a central guy...

Ferrari offered him a boatload of cash to join them...

so.. tell Ferrari they were chasing an over - rated guy... you evidently know better than those that work the pitlane every day...

hilarious...

[kevinracefan]

and now there's a blame culture that the decline of Red Bull is all down to him.

I've only heard him blamed by a couple of posters here.. no one in the pitlane is blaming him..

the blame culture petrie dish is here, with you guys... not in the real world

[Jordan44]

 

based on your logic, he was over-rated at Williams and McLaren, too...

the concepts and packaging come from a central guy...

Ferrari offered him a boatload of cash to join them...

so.. tell Ferrari they were chasing an over - rated guy... you evidently know better than those that work the pitlane every day...

hilarious...

 

Ferrari offered him a boatload of cash because he's a genius. He put the structures in place for Red Bull to dominate. That's not the point. I'm going to tear my hair out in a minute.

 

I've only heard him blamed by a couple of posters here.. no one in the pitlane is blaming him..

the blame culture petrie dish is here, with you guys... not in the real world

 

When are you in the pit lane discussing with others the demise of Red Bull? I can't imagine very often. It's not been a hot topic in the media, but it's sure of hell what people pin it down to. The loss of Adrian Newey.

Edited by J0rd4n, 08 June 2015 - 15:49.

[Talisman]

And you could make a movie without a director..... an over rated role.

Good comparison. How good would the greats have been with a crap scriptwriter, cinematographer, third or fourth rate actors etc etc.

[Paco]

Too funny people still don't get 1 man can and does make all the difference in the world. It's his approach, his ability to get the most out of his staff and also how to get those individuals to work together on his vision together and not silo'd and wondering why the front doesn't work with the back or why the balance is off etc. immediately upon taking a step back, things break down no matter how much you instil in them. Individual egos, overstated abilities etc. all come into play... But usually it's subtle things that a master like Newey does that isn't necessarily tangible that make all the difference, small discussion, small changes, small ideas that come together.. Even though the individuals below him don't appreciate or get and think I can do this, I can run this part... I've worked with him for 6 years, no problem.

Yeah problem.. Your ego your ability your training isn't as good as the master.. He always holds the secret of making it all work to himself.

[tmekt]

That people think he is responsible for every nook and cranny on that car, and Red Bull didn't give enough to credit to Prodromou, or their engine supplier for their work on the blown exhaust effect. He got far too much credit for the RB domination period. It got quite annoying.

My point? He might be a genius and has done good things for Red Bull. But when it goes wrong can you blame Newey? Absolutely not. RBR is made up of more than just Newey, but the way he was portrayed in the media during their domination period is probably what is responsible for this culture of blaming him.

Red Bull have lost loads of key staff over the last few seasons. All of those leaving and adequate replacements not being put in place is where the issue lies. Not just Newey's lack of involvement.



This is a prime example of it. People think Newey masterminded the aero, masterminded those insane levels of downforce that the RB cars had. But actually he didn't. Peter Prodomou did, yet he rarely gets credit for it. I only know his name because he jumped to McLaren...

Would the cars still have insane levels of downforce if Newey didn't have a Prodromou type person or Prodromou didn't have a Newey type person? Probably not. As they say, no I in team.

The fact is though that Newey isn't your typical tech director. He does (or did) in fact do a lot of that hands-on designing with pen and paper which other TDs might do less.

It's weird though that you keep on with that "Newey's overrated and didn't design the RB aero with the awesome downforce levels" narrative but then exercise the exact same logic to Prodromou.

"But actually he didn't. Peter Prodomou did"

Who knows what Prodromou's strenghts are, maybe he's the guy who does the leadership part while Newey is in control of the actual car development. Maybe not. We don't know.

Edited by tmekt, 08 June 2015 - 16:51.

[maverick69]

IMHO Newey was, and still is very much focused on finding the "Silver Bullet".

 

Whether it be optimising active ride, or using EBDs to create ground-effect skirts - he was always a few years ahead.

 

With this new engine (PU) heavy formula -  he's had his wings cut (excuse the pun). Ergo the odd moan.

 

So, I'd say, he's in it for the money at the moment!

Edited by maverick69, 08 June 2015 - 16:59.

[f1RacingForever]

Maybe Newey should have taken Ferrari up on their past offers. Ferrari are going forward whilst redbull are going backwards. Designing one last winning car in collaboration with Allison would have been a great finish to his career.

[kevinracefan]

he doesn't care for Ferrari, or how they do business... ("if they can't make something work, they get it banned"). I suspect he'd rather retire than join the dark side...