71 replies to this topic

[anneomoly]

he doesn't care for Ferrari, or how they do business... ("if they can't make something work, they get it banned"). I suspect he'd rather retire than join the dark side...

 

Yeah, he prefers Red Bull, who give you bendy wings

[f1RacingForever]

he doesn't care for Ferrari, or how they do business... ("if they can't make something work, they get it banned"). I suspect he'd rather retire than join the dark side...

You mean like lobbying to get 2013 tires back to 2012 construction? Redbull, champions of ethics. There is no shortage of hypocrisy in f1.

[Jordan44]

Interesting thing I heard on the midweek report from Scarbs that I didn't know. Since the loss of Adrian Newey, Red Bull have gone back to a matrix style of working (This means that there isn't a clear leader in developing the car as such, they just get all their key people who all chip in). Before they had Adrian as the clear leader. I think this pretty much explains their poor chassis this year.

 

The issue is clearly management, not replacing Adrian Newey correctly or implementing the right design philosophy in his absence.

Edited by J0rd4n, 10 June 2015 - 21:04.

[V8 Fireworks]

When are you in the pit lane discussing with others the demise of Red Bull? ...but it's sure of hell what people pin it down to. The loss of Adrian Newey.

 

Nothing to do with Renault engine -0.5s per lap (or more)? 

[taran]

You mean like lobbying to get 2013 tires back to 2012 construction? Redbull, champions of ethics. There is no shortage of hypocrisy in f1.

 

Not fair to accuse RB. They were pretty sporting IMO until 2009 when they felt they were being screwed. If you look at the articles/comments from that period, you can clearly see that RB felt the blown diffuser was against the spirit of the rules and were then firmly told there is no spirit or intension behind the rules, just the rules. And ever since, they have taken that to heart, exploiting the rules as much as possible without any regard to what might have been intended. Pretty much like the other big teams do. 

 

So in a sense, we have Brawn and the FIA to blame for Red Bull being a$$holes now......

[David1976]

My own opinion is that Newey has always designed class leading aerodynamics around exhaust manipulated technology.   Like Red Bull he did the same at Williams and McLaren.

 

He seems to have an incredible natural understanding on how the exhaust gasses can be maximised to aerodynamic benefit.  Better than anyone in the current era.  

 

That has gone now and may not return.  Without that Red Bull could be resigned to the midfield for the next few years.  At least as far as aero is concerned now that they have lost PP.

[Jordan44]

Nothing to do with Renault engine -0.5s per lap (or more)? 

 

Red Bull are frequently being beaten or only matching Toro Rosso. It's not just the engine. Their chassis is no where near as good as it was last year.

[robefc]

My own opinion is that Newey has always designed class leading aerodynamics around exhaust manipulated technology.   Like Red Bull he did the same at Williams and McLaren.

 

He seems to have an incredible natural understanding on how the exhaust gasses can be maximised to aerodynamic benefit.  Better than anyone in the current era.  

 

That has gone now and may not return.  Without that Red Bull could be resigned to the midfield for the next few years.  At least as far as aero is concerned now that they have lost PP.

 

Does the above apply to the pre-double diffused RB of 2009?

[Dunc]

From 1992-2004 the WDC and WCC were won either by the team which had Adrian Newey or the team that had Michael Schumacher.  One person can make a big difference to a team but they don't do it all themselves more they get everyone around them to do their best.

 

The same is true throughout F1 history: Colin Chapman didn't create the great Lotus cars all by himself but he got everyone around him working in a way which created great success; Alain Prost was another great at it - look what happened to Renault and Ferrari after he left.

 

It's like Brian Eno when he first produced U2 and Coldplay albums - he didn't change the line-up or the way they played but did channel their energies in a new direction which helped them produce some of their most popular music.

Edited by Dunc, 11 June 2015 - 11:56.

[Spillage]

Newey is probably a greater designer even than Colin Chapman or Gordon Murray but, as others have said, he doesn't do it all on his own. Like all designers, he needs many things for his cars to be successful on track - a good team of people working with him, a strong driver pairing and competent team management. 

 

This is pure conjecture, but perhaps the fact that he's got one foot in the door and one foot out isn't helping them. He's still around, but is he in charge? Do RB follow all of his suggestions? If so, why isn't he still running the show?

[Dunc]

Newey is probably a greater designer even than Colin Chapman or Gordon Murray but, as others have said, he doesn't do it all on his own. Like all designers, he needs many things for his cars to be successful on track - a good team of people working with him, a strong driver pairing and competent team management. 

 

This is pure conjecture, but perhaps the fact that he's got one foot in the door and one foot out isn't helping them. He's still around, but is he in charge? Do RB follow all of his suggestions? If so, why isn't he still running the show?

 

You have to ask how interested he is these days as well.  What can he do but repeat himself?

[Talisman]

You have to ask how interested he is these days as well.  What can he do but repeat himself?

 

He's been looking to reduce his F1 commitment for a while.  RBR only got him because they were prepared to offer him something McLaren wasn't, the freedom to go racing himself (IIRC in Ginettas).  I don't think its the world's biggest secret that he's been eyeing up other new challenges too like boat design.

[Spillage]

He's been looking to reduce his F1 commitment for a while.  RBR only got him because they were prepared to offer him something McLaren wasn't, the freedom to go racing himself (IIRC in Ginettas).  I don't think its the world's biggest secret that he's been eyeing up other new challenges too like boat design.

Is that really the case? I thought that RB offered him a greater role than Mclaren were willing to, and also he fancied the challenge of building a team up from the midfield. He tried to sign for Jaguar beforen (2001, I think), so he also has some personal connection to the team. Now that challenge is complete, I agree, his mind must be wandering.

[Dunc]

Is that really the case? I thought that RB offered him a greater role than Mclaren were willing to, and also he fancied the challenge of building a team up from the midfield. He tried to sign for Jaguar beforen (2001, I think), so he also has some personal connection to the team. Now that challenge is complete, I agree, his mind must be wandering.

 

I thought his reason for going to ReBu was that he wanted to go to a team from the start and turn it around, which he did, in style.  I suppose the only thing he could do which would be 'new' now would be to go to a non-British team but I doubt Sauber or TR could afford his wages, which would leave just Ferrari as an option.

[DILLIGAF]

Red Bull are frequently being beaten or only matching Toro Rosso. It's not just the engine. Their chassis is no where near as good as it was last year.

Have you ever considered that Key, Marabini & Piraccini designed a very decent chassis in the STR10? As Key said, the STR10 is a "real" racecar.

[Paco]

Teams build duds once in a while, Williams has, mclaren has and not just this year, Ferrari have.. It happens, it's inevitable that redbull would too. Str built a nice total package.. I don't think rb will ever be back to who they were.. Seb was a key cog and newey, now with both removed I just don't see it working out for them again.. I can see rb backing out of f1 within 5yrs.

Edited by Paco, 11 June 2015 - 19:39.

[Talisman]

Is that really the case? I thought that RB offered him a greater role than Mclaren were willing to, and also he fancied the challenge of building a team up from the midfield. He tried to sign for Jaguar beforen (2001, I think), so he also has some personal connection to the team. Now that challenge is complete, I agree, his mind must be wandering.

 

I'm sure you're right, he wanted new challenges and greater freedom etc but I also do know that the freedom to spend weekends racing was also a key factor.

[rhukkas]

Have you ever considered that Key, Marabini & Piraccini designed a very decent chassis in the STR10? As Key said, the STR10 is a "real" racecar.

 

The Toro Rosso hasn't seen a massive improvement in performance relative to their normal competitors. RedBull have fallen backwards, a lot.

[mclarensmps]

What Newey excels at is understanding rule changes really well, and coming up with a fantastic design to suit them right off the bat. This, along with the fact that he can recognise talent and set up a good team working around him are the two main things that stand out about him, and are the key reasons to his success. 

 

The downside is that he eventually gets bored of it, and wants a change of scenery. 

Either ways, he's still one of the best, if not the best in the business at what he does. It'll be a sad day when he puts down his pen, and seeks pastures anew. 

[f1RacingForever]

Not fair to accuse RB. They were pretty sporting IMO until 2009 when they felt they were being screwed. If you look at the articles/comments from that period, you can clearly see that RB felt the blown diffuser was against the spirit of the rules and were then firmly told there is no spirit or intension behind the rules, just the rules. And ever since, they have taken that to heart, exploiting the rules as much as possible without any regard to what might have been intended. Pretty much like the other big teams do. 

 

So in a sense, we have Brawn and the FIA to blame for Red Bull being a$$holes now......

Blown diffuser? Redbull were the first to use the blown diffuser. I think you mean DDD in 2009.  Every team exploits the rules for their own benefit. Some more than others so to sit there and point fingers, one really needs to have a little more humility. The same can be said about the 2010 Hockenheim team orders scandal. Afterwards Horner uttered his infamous words "we lets our drivers race" which proved to be boloney only a year later. Newey is obviously one of the most talented engineer's in f1 but some of his comments come across as arrogant. "Ferrari lucked into the 2013 tires" Perhaps but the fact that they could manage them better was not luck. Unbecoming of such a prominent figure.

[taran]

Blown diffuser? Redbull were the first to use the blown diffuser. I think you mean DDD in 2009.  Every team exploits the rules for their own benefit. Some more than others so to sit there and point fingers, one really needs to have a little more humility. The same can be said about the 2010 Hockenheim team orders scandal. Afterwards Horner uttered his infamous words "we lets our drivers race" which proved to be boloney only a year later. Newey is obviously one of the most talented engineer's in f1 but some of his comments come across as arrogant. "Ferrari lucked into the 2013 tires" Perhaps but the fact that they could manage them better was not luck. Unbecoming of such a prominent figure.

 

You're right....memory can play tricks .

 

I still think there was a paradigm shift at RB in 2009 because of the ruling. It taught them that F1 was not a sport but a business and they have played the game that way every since. Especially Horner. He has said and done anything and everything as long as it benefits his team (and his team only).

 

That doesn't endear him to me, as I am more of a general F1 fan than any particular current team, but I can acknowledge that every other team, even those with better public images, do the same.

[SpeedRacer`]

Does the above apply to the pre-double diffused RB of 2009?

 

And indeed last year's RB - a brilliant car really, considering the engine disadvantage it had.