87 replies to this topic

[vowcartaGP]

It seems these days that every championship in motor racing has its own unique approach to qualifying. Some rely on reverse grids with multiple races per weekend, some decide to be convoluted and confusing, and others decide to do both.

So, discussion time; which is/was the best qualifying, and which is/was the worst?

I'll start off by openly declaring that I liked the aggregate qualifying system F1 had in 2005. Whilst it only lasted 6 races I remember the grids being spiced up a lot. Unfortunately it was implemented wrong by having the second session on Sunday and not Saturday. I also liked race fuel qualifying (2005-2009) for the same reason - the grids wouldn't always be what you expect. I've always liked F1's quali system since 2006 but I feel after a decade it may need changing again as barring problems you can almost garuantee a Mercedes front row, and Ferrari row 2. No wonder we have people walking away when it's that predictable. Having the fastest/best overall cars always start at the front is always going to be dull.

If I had my way I would have an aggregate qualifying system, each session being a 1 lap shootout. The first session (Saturday, 11am) would be in championship standings order, the theory being the last cars to run would have the 'faster' track by the end of the session. Session 2 (Saturday, 1pm) would be in reverse championship order as well. You could even have qualifying ballast for championship leaders. A race where Hamilton, Vettel, Rosberg are all starting mid grid is most likely to be much more entertaining than if they started 1-2-3, as I think this season has shown. As long as we have a situation where drivers can actually go flat out for most of the race obviously. But I digress:

Qualifying, we love you!

Edited by vowcartaGP, 09 June 2015 - 12:37.

[Ross Stonefeld]

The current one I think is the best of any form of motorsport anywhere. I wish we'd had the knockout system, without the fuel requirement of the late 00s, all the time in F1.

We all remember the glory moments of late pole battles, but a lot of the time someone would set a big time 30 minutes into the session and no one else would get close...

[Collombin]

The current F1 system is excellent IMO.

Worst? Well, the first Indy 500 grid order was determined by the order the entries were received! (Subject to being able to reach 75mph on the main straight).

I don't mind one at a time qualifying runs, at least you don't miss anything.

[427MkIV]

The Indy 500's old four-lap average with Tom Carnegie on the mic, the possibility that the fastest car on the grid might be a second-day qualifier and be back in the pack, and the drama of bump day make it the best ever.

 

The worst is single-car qualifying at a local short track. Takes too long, often in 90-degree temperatures.

Edited by 427MkIV, 09 June 2015 - 12:56.

[realracer200]

The best was the qualifying system at the time of Senna and Prost, 1 hour session plus qualifying tyres. Qualifying was great back then.

[ViMaMo]

Today's qualifying system is very good.

Next was the 1 hour qualifying session. 

 

 

Worst by far was 1 lap qualifying. 

[noikeee]

I'll start off by openly declaring that I liked the aggregate qualifying system F1 had in 2005. Whilst it only lasted 6 races I remember the grids being spiced up a lot. Unfortunately it was implemented wrong by having the second session on Sunday and not Saturday. I also liked race fuel qualifying (2005-2009) for the same reason - the grids wouldn't always be what you expect. 

 

Those two systems were horrible. I much prefer the current one. The knockout still gives a bit of scope for things to go wrong and the grid to be shuffled, but now they line up on an order of merit, and you actually get to know who's quick over one lap.

 

I wish they could just throw away the tyres after the session and not have to start the race with them though. Then they'd be able to go 101% as they should.

[SenorSjon]

1 hour, 12 laps: It was sensible they quit doing it on Friday and Saturday because on rainy days, absolutely nothing would happen on Saturday. It used to be unlimited laps, but due to tire costs, they quit doing that. But still I think of it as the best format. Perhaps more rules should be designed so they could be explained in one sentence.

 

Single - lap: not same conditions for everyone, only few laps/car. Sometimes mixed up grid, but no fun watching.

 

Race fuel - cars were put in the speed order they would drive in the race. Hence the low overtaking. And that while we used to have some surprises with one-lap-wonders.

 

Q1-3 - To easy for the top guys. I don't have the attention span for these short stints, while I could hang on to the full hour with the 12 lap format. I can't think of a memorable qualifiying session with this. Perhaps the Schumacher pole in Monaco, but that was special for other reasons than qualifying perse. 

Disadvantage is the short time between FP3 and Q1, so a damaged car cannot be repaired in time, while in the past you could see someone come back on track in the last 10 minutes. Vettel, Massa could have profited from that. I also remember Alonso sitting out a Monaco qualifying due to a damaged car.

 

 

But, they could improve A LOT in the graphics during qualifying. Why not a running laptime after each name in the left column? Or coloured sectors behind the name. Just watch how MotoGP does it. They use 4 sectors as well in stead of only 3 in F1.

[Paco]

Interesting about bringing in a 4-lap continuous average... That way, a small mistake doesn't dictate pole. I do not like the current format ven though it's better then 1 lap disaster. I would like to see a 1hr free running, to qualifying, your best 4lap average. If you don't achieve 4continous laps, must put put in 1 lap to qualify and start from back of the grid etc.. Laps of course will be done in traffic while others qualifying.

I'd like to see a mixup at exclusive track implementing unique qualifying approaches. 4 tracks that don't follow the std approach to bring some variety to the season and go weekends. Even to the point where every track eventually has it's own unique qualifying.

Edited by Paco, 09 June 2015 - 13:38.

[SenorSjon]

4 lap average on some tracks is skewed due to traffic. And it is very hard to see if someone is being faster or not. 

[CurbPainter]

I have been a fan of this system since it has been introduced, it's brutal, especially for the guys between places 6 and 16.

 

- Q2 ; they go out with the harder tyre to see if they can save a set of options but lots of times have perform again with the primes

 

- Q2 ; they again have to perform to get into Q3

 

- Q3 : they have to perform once gain to get the best possible grid possition

 

In the old days waiting till only the last few minutes was pretty boring.

[Paco]

4 lap average on some tracks is skewed due to traffic. And it is very hard to see if someone is being faster or not.

That's the point.. Seeing lap time and average would be easy on screen. Like days of old, drivers would need to manage themselves, make gaps etc.

[SenorSjon]

I have been a fan of this system since it has been introduced, it's brutal, especially for the guys between places 6 and 16.

 

- Q2 ; they go out with the harder tyre to see if they can save a set of options but lots of times have perform again with the primes

 

- Q2 ; they again have to perform to get into Q3

 

- Q3 : they have to perform once gain to get the best possible grid possition

 

In the old days waiting till only the last few minutes was pretty boring.

 

They skip the first run and usually go on the softer tire right away. We don't have the two tire gap anymore.

 

 

But I strongly dislike the start on your qualification tires rule, as well as dual compounds. They only bring tactics closer together.

[johnmhinds]

I've never been a hug fan of any qualifying system where the rules also say you can't change your cars setup for the race.

 

It creates boring races with the cars lined up with the fastest ones at the front before the race even starts. The only excitement and passing comes from the drivers that screw up in qualifying.

 

If they could change the cars setup before a race it could make the racing far more exciting.

 

TL:DR, The problem with qualifying is parc ferme rules that limit variations in car set ups for the races.

Edited by johnmhinds, 09 June 2015 - 14:34.

[Scotracer]

Best: Current

Worst: Aggregate

[PlatenGlass]

I preferred the system that we basically had from 1996 to 2002 in F1. One qualifying session and drivers go out when they want. I think they probably could have got rid of the 12-lap rule and maybe just limited tyres though. We certainly didn't need the two sessions we had before 1996.

I think the system we have now in F1 is a bit gimmicky. It seems a bit pointless the top drivers just doing enough to get through to the next round with the only excitement at the cut-off points. And sometimes Q3 doesn't really deliver and the highlight of qualifying is often the battle for 10th in Q2. I also don't like the mixing of qualifying/race tyre allocations, so that drivers can save tyres for the race in qualifying. It makes it too tactical.

So - one session of an hour. Unlimited laps but limited tyres, but a separate tyre allocation for the race and qualifying.

[Dan333SP]

I like the current system.

 

I bet the little teams miss the 1 hour qualifying, though. You used to have a Minardi or Arrows out lapping by itself 10 minutes into the session to get TV time, while the heavy hitters wouldn't even leave the garage until halfway through the session (unless there was rain moving in). On the plus side, there was plenty of time for grandstands to organize a pretty solid human wave. On the negative side, there was so much happening in the last 5 minutes that it was almost impossible to follow, and there were so many cars on track that someone always complained that they were blocked. Now, 10 cars and accurate planning means they rarely ever get to blame a slower car for their bad lap any more.

[CurbPainter]

They skip the first run and usually go on the softer tire right away. We don't have the two tire gap anymore.

 

But I strongly dislike the start on your qualification tires rule, as well as dual compounds. They only bring tactics closer together.

 

I see lots of times the first run in Q1 still being done on primes by most, and they still try and be as fast as they can to see if they can get away with just the options, which fails most of the times needing them to going out on the option anyway.

 

Only the slowest cars have the tendency to go out on the options right away.  I think I saw for the first time the TR drivers go right out on options, but FP3 at the end was a bit compromised, so it could also having to do with that.

[Otaku]

1 hour

12 laps

qualy tyres

 

all out, no bullsh1t

[mathewking21]

I have been a fan of this system since it has been introduced, it's brutal, especially for the guys between places 6 and 16.

 

- Q2 ; they go out with the harder tyre to see if they can save a set of options but lots of times have perform again with the primes

 

- Q2 ; they again have to perform to get into Q3

 

- Q3 : they have to perform once gain to get the best possible grid possition

 

In the old days waiting till only the last few minutes was pretty boring.

 

You're absolutely right !!

[maximilian]

I find the reverse-8 for the GP2 sprint race horrendous.

[RacingDuck]

I like the current system but (and I know Im going to be alone on this one) my favorite was one-lap. It gave all the drivers the same amount of tv time and it was interesting to watch, especially when one of the faster cars would spin and have to start in the back.

Race fuel would have been alright but it was just so damn wasteful I cant say anything good about it.

[Oho]

1 hour, 12 laps: It was sensible they quit doing it on Friday and Saturday because on rainy days, absolutely nothing would happen on Saturday. It used to be unlimited laps, but due to tire costs, they quit doing that.

 

Really I thought the lap count got capped to put a lid on gamesmanship.

[Frank Tuesday]

1 hour Friday plus 1 hour Saturday.  Unlimited laps, qualifying tyres, qualifying engines.

[Oho]

1 hour Friday plus 1 hour Saturday.  Unlimited laps, qualifying tyres, qualifying engines.

 

 

With contemporary stewarding it would then take till next morning to sort out all impeding penalties... But would be nice to see Manor on pole.

[Nonesuch]

I find the current system exceptionally boring to the point I barely bother to watch it any longer. After spending 40 minutes getting to a point where the sharp end of the grid will finally - for real this time! - be decided we get everyone trying to drive their lap as late as possible, resulting in a static camera-shot of the starting line so we supposedly 'don't miss anything'. Yeah right. It's about as compelling as the endless pitlane shots during actual night races. You're better off watching the broadcast after the end of qualifying for a chance to see on-board shots of the pole lap.

 

Some of the hour-long pole battles in the old one hour format were great - Suzuka 2000 springs to mind - but more often than not it wasn't like that.

 

One lap qualifying was excellent for being able to actually see the drivers pushing their car to the limit throughout the entire lap. It had problems of its own, but it made for much better television and even a couple of odd results over the course of the year.

[Gyno]

Have a 30min +1 lap sprint race on saturday, starting order would be reverse from the previous race results.

 

Hamilton won in Canada so he would start last and Alonso was last so he would be on pole.

Then the finishing order would be the starting order for the Sunday race.

[CurbPainter]

Have a 30min +1 lap sprint race on saturday, starting order would be reverse from the previous race results.

 

Hamilton won in Canada so he would start last and Alonso was last so he would be on pole.

Then the finishing order would be the starting order for the Sunday race.

 

I don't think the mechanics would be too happy about that, lots of cars probably needing to be repaired when they would go for that...it would be entertaining tough.

[DampMongoose]

I really enjoyed F1's pre-qualifying. But to return to that would require more teams to give a **** about being in F1.

[Viceroy]

I really enjoyed F1's pre-qualifying. But to return to that would require more teams to give a **** about being in F1.

 

Was that ever shown on TV?

[Jordan44]

Formula E's qualifying format makes no sense to me at all, splitting them into random groups. The ones in the higher groups get a clear advantage. They go on a less dirty, rubbered in track, and know what kind of lap times they're looking to aim for. I understand the tracks are short and it's difficult to get all 20 of the cars on at the same time putting in a lap and not being affected by traffic, but as it is now, it's just a lottery and doesn't even represent a driver's ability. I hope that gets changed.

Edited by J0rd4n, 09 June 2015 - 19:13.

[Gyno]

I don't think the mechanics would be too happy about that, lots of cars probably needing to be repaired when they would go for that...it would be entertaining tough.

It would spice things up big time and keep the fight for the title exiting.

 

But there is the risk that those that are outside the points in the sunday race will slow their pace down so they get a better starting position for the next race weekends saturday sprint race.

So those outside the top 10 will have their starting positions pulled from a hat by some famous person who paid good money to Me for being there.

 

Also points will be awarded from the sprint race to the top 6 like in the golden era 10.6.5.4.3.2.1

[ninetyzero]

The current one I think is the best of any form of motorsport anywhere. I wish we'd had the knockout system, without the fuel requirement of the late 00s, all the time in F1.

We all remember the glory moments of late pole battles, but a lot of the time someone would set a big time 30 minutes into the session and no one else would get close...

 

 

The current F1 system is excellent IMO.
 

 

Agree completely. Current system is fair and keeps things interesting throughout but without being too gimmicky. 

 

The best was the qualifying system at the time of Senna and Prost, 1 hour session plus qualifying tyres. Qualifying was great back then.

 

Quali was boring back then. Often nothing would happen for most of the hour. If it rained at the start everyone would leave it until the end and if it rained part way through we were done for the day.

 

Worst by far was 1 lap qualifying. 

 

Oh god I forgot about that, *shudder*

 

 

1 hour Friday plus 1 hour Saturday.  Unlimited laps, qualifying tyres, qualifying engines.

 

Bankrupt teams, manufacturers pulling out because it's too expensive, no cars n the grid, sounds great..

 

 

Worst qualifying system is anything used in touring cars. There's a special place in hell for the person who dreamed up reverse grids.

Edited by ninetyzero, 09 June 2015 - 19:33.

[DampMongoose]

Was that ever shown on TV?

Eurosport certainly had footage at the time. Maybe BBC too although I can't remember.

[ViMaMo]

The best alternate would be unlimited laps for 1 hr with qualifying setups allowed. But then top teams might not even come out for quite sometime.

[SenorSjon]

I like the current system.

 

I bet the little teams miss the 1 hour qualifying, though. You used to have a Minardi or Arrows out lapping by itself 10 minutes into the session to get TV time, while the heavy hitters wouldn't even leave the garage until halfway through the session (unless there was rain moving in). On the plus side, there was plenty of time for grandstands to organize a pretty solid human wave. On the negative side, there was so much happening in the last 5 minutes that it was almost impossible to follow, and there were so many cars on track that someone always complained that they were blocked. Now, 10 cars and accurate planning means they rarely ever get to blame a slower car for their bad lap any more.

 

That still happens, but we still don't see a live pole lap most of the time. TV-direction is still as bad as it was 20 years ago for picking up the fast laps. Like I said, the FOM visuals are utterly crap to keep track of the times. Development in that area is dead slow given the current state of technology. Even worse, we mostly miss the laps three times with the three sections.

 

I find the current system exceptionally boring to the point I barely bother to watch it any longer. After spending 40 minutes getting to a point where the sharp end of the grid will finally - for real this time! - be decided we get everyone trying to drive their lap as late as possible, resulting in a static camera-shot of the starting line so we supposedly 'don't miss anything'. Yeah right. It's about as compelling as the endless pitlane shots during actual night races. You're better off watching the broadcast after the end of qualifying for a chance to see on-board shots of the pole lap.

 

Some of the hour-long pole battles in the old one hour format were great - Suzuka 2000 springs to mind - but more often than not it wasn't like that.

 

One lap qualifying was excellent for being able to actually see the drivers pushing their car to the limit throughout the entire lap. It had problems of its own, but it made for much better television and even a couple of odd results over the course of the year.

 

Agreed, except the 1-lap qualy bit.

 

Another oddball is the A-B group qualification. WSR used it at Monaco I believe. The fastest group gets all the odd spots, the slowest group the even spots. There can be a quite a margin between two places where someone a second faster starts behind the slower guys.

 

 

Reverse grids... *shudders* They should drag the inventor of that one behind a race car around the track.

[Stephane]

I can live with the current format. But i'd prefer juste a one hour with no other rule.

[Ncedi]

Guess NoneSuch and I are the only ones who liked the one lap qualifying? I enjoyed being able to see each driver's lap and to see them pushing. Plus it kept you on edge because one mistake would most likely be heavily punished. Now, provided you haven't crashed and there's some time left, you can get out and have another go as well as drivers setting "banker" laps.

Edited by Ncedi, 10 June 2015 - 07:45.

[Fomalhaut]

1 qualy lap like 2003-2005. All the pressure on the driver.

[CoolBreeze]

The one hour free for all was great. Only thing, they should have implemented the cars must come out at least once every 10 mins. That way, no one can complain about 'traffic' the last 5 mins of it. 

[P123]

Guess NoneSuch and I are the only ones who liked the one lap qualifying? I enjoyed being able to see each driver's lap and to see them pushing. Plus it kept you on edge because one mistake would most likely be heavily punished. Now, provided you haven't crashed and there's some time left, you can get out and have another go as well as drivers setting "banker" laps.

 

Being able to see each drivers lap was the only real benefit, for TV.  But it was incredibly dull at times.  Especially when on tracks that improved markedly with each lap.  There was never really any build up in tension.  No qualifying battles like the old 12 lap or current format enable, a bit of dead time waiting for the next car to start it's lap, never any true battle for pole.  I can't really recall any memorable qualifying sessions from the one lap shoot out days.  I don't think it works in other series either. 

[Pingguest]

I don't like the curren qualifying format. It is an artificial show, particularly with the post-qualifying parc ferme. I think the pre-1992 system was essentially the best format.

[Fatgadget]

Best format for me was during the turbo era...Bolt on a set of super sticky qualy tyres.and an engine designed  to last just the one banzai lap and dial the chassis for minimum drag and max dowforce..Driver jumps in, finds a clear window on the track,takes a deep breath while  hanging  his balls out of the cockpit and then goes for it!   ..Of course that was just bonkers on every level  but boy was it mega exhilarating to witness 

[Clatter]

I like the current system but (and I know Im going to be alone on this one) my favorite was one-lap. It gave all the drivers the same amount of tv time and it was interesting to watch, especially when one of the faster cars would spin and have to start in the back.

Race fuel would have been alright but it was just so damn wasteful I cant say anything good about it.

It was just about bearable if you were watching on TV, but it was boring to watch trackside.

[Frank Tuesday]

With contemporary stewarding it would then take till next morning to sort out all impeding penalties... But would be nice to see Manor on pole.

 

But with 2 hours to set a time, there would be no need for all the stupid rules and penalties.  If you can't get a clear lap in 2 hours, you need to work on your qualifying strategy. 

[Celloman]

Anyone who says the 1 hour free system was the best should watch some broadcast replays again. It was nothing but waiting until the last 5 minutes when everything was decided, barely a car went out on the first half hour, plus traffic on tracks like Monaco made it complete lottery sometimes. The idea to have warmup before the race and allow setup changes was good though.

Edited by Celloman, 10 June 2015 - 16:29.

[blackhand2010]

The current system is best for F1, but I do like the new grid system for the fastest lap system for the second race in the BTCC.

It's still a test for the drivers, but is able to throw up anomalies.

[Marklar]

The worst was the one lap qualifying in two qualifying sessions. Remember Silverstone when rain was forecasted to the end of the second qualifying and everyone drove incredible slowly on porpuse just to drive at the beginning of the second qualifying where no rain was forecasted. At the end the complete qualifying stayed dry if I remember correctly.

Edited by Marklar, 10 June 2015 - 17:17.

[GoldenColt]

The worst was the one lap qualifying in two qualifying sessions. Remember Silverstone when rain was forecasted for the end of the second qualifying and everyone drove incredible slowly on porpuse just to drive at the beginning of the second qualifying where no rain was forecasted. At the end the complete qualifying stay dry if I remember correctly.

 

Ferrari's approach to this situation was comedy-gold though. Spinning on purpose. 

[Marklar]

Ferrari's approach to this situation was comedy-gold though. Spinning on purpose. 

Thats Ferrari. Even in Indy 2005 they managed to spin under the enormous pressure of Jordan and Minardi. They were masterminds in entertaining