133 replies to this topic

[ch103]

What does the FIA do when the F1 cars are all powered by Tesla batteries?  What happens to Formula E?

[Hyatt]

... won't happen unless FIA wants it that way ...

[Sash1]

At the moment to get 700bhp from a Tesla you need a car that weighs 2100kg, which could be trimmed down to maybe 1500-1600. And even with that battery package you run out of juice before 100km if you drive it agressive. Based on experience I'd say you are out of power before you reach 50km when you use it to race with. So you'd have to swap cars 6 times in a race minimal. I just don't see it happening soon. And if it happens, Formula E is the new GP2.

[Szoelloe]

What does the FIA do when the F1 cars are all powered by Tesla batteries?  What happens to Formula E?

 

well, what do you think. You have one attempt.

[chipmcdonald]

That would be fine by me, if it was unlimited. 

 

 "We can't have unlimited engines because they would be too powerful".

Well then, the future is electric.  Why not unlimited electric?  I keep campaigning for this, because F1 *could* be world changing: a ton of money thrown at engineering better batteries and electric motors!  A half-way fence sitting engineering-restricted hybrid is not Formula One, it's just a way of making F1 too expensive and costly for independent teams.

 

THAT IS GREEN AND ROAD CAR RELEVANT. Anything else is a lie. F1 is already behind reality when it comes to "progressive" technology.

[Gyno]

I wouldn't mind seeing  F1 teams using a Spec V8 engine and then unlimited electric system next to it.

Instead of wasting money on the engine, they would spend that money on getting a better hybrid system.

 

Also why not have a battery pack that they can change during the pitstop?

Could be easily done, if they really want to push on with Formula E.

Car comes in to pit, at the same time as tires are being changed they change the battery.

Pull the old one out and push the new one in.

[string158]

I could see F1 relaxing the rules around the electric systems further down the line,  but at the moment there is a big focus on cost saving, so it wont happen for now.

 

 Isn't Formula E going to change from a spec series after the first season (or two?).  This will really encourage the development of electronic PU in a racing series.   I guess what will be interesting is when a few big name manufactures get involved.  The PR of developing the best electric power unit will be big news for them, so things could get interesting.  

[Sash1]

I wouldn't mind seeing  F1 teams using a Spec V8 engine and then unlimited electric system next to it.

Instead of wasting money on the engine, they would spend that money on getting a better hybrid system.

 

Also why not have a battery pack that they can change during the pitstop?

Could be easily done, if they really want to push on with Formula E.

Car comes in to pit, at the same time as tires are being changed they change the battery.

Pull the old one out and push the new one in.

 

Right.... This is the size of a Tesla model S battery pack:

 

And it sits low in the car, to lower the centre of gravity so the car remains driveable. In an F1 car you would do the same. It would cover the whole bottom and as low as possible. It is not something you pull out easily. You would basically have to lift the whole car, pull it from underneath and lower the car onto a new battery. It's not your average car battery pack.

Edited by Sash1, 11 June 2015 - 15:02.

[pdac]

Right.... This is the size of a Tesla model S battery pack:

 

And it sits low in the car, to lower the centre of gravity so the car remains driveable. In an F1 car you would do the same. It would cover the whole bottom and as low as possible. It is not something you pull out easily. You would basically have to lift the whole car, pull it from underneath and lower the car onto a new battery. It's not your average car battery pack.

 

Then there's the first engineering challenge - design a car where something like this could be changed quickly and easily. A soon as someone says "it can't be done" or "it's not possible" or "it's not practical", innovation stops.

[Ben1445]

This is why I'm following Formula E closely. It's not open spec but that was to get the series off the ground, if you remember it practically didn't exist this time 2 years ago what they have now is fairly impressive. 

As electric technology improves, I would be all for F1 running on electricity. I don't see any problem with that happening at all. It's quite clear that people are beginning to see green technology as desirable or more socially acceptable, so investment may be easier to come by as businesses and manufacturers try to adapt. We may even see new manufacturers pop up. Tesla have already been mentioned but how long before they get involved? Electric racing vehicles (EVRs? Can I call them that?) might open up radically different concepts. Motors in the hub, one for each wheel may become the norm... Personally I say bring it on.

What would happen to Formula E in that case? I don't know. Maybe it will have served it's purpose. Or maybe they'll merge rule sets in a similar move to the ALMS/Grand Am tie up last year. Who knows.. 
If it does happen though then there may an exciting time ahead. 

[kevinracefan]

Then there's the first engineering challenge - design a car where something like this could be changed quickly and easily. A soon as someone says "it can't be done" or "it's not possible" or "it's not practical", innovation stops.

Joest will get those changed in 12 seconds

[F1Lurker]

If the world moves towards a hydrogen economy I think that an electric formula powered by hydrogen fuel cells is possible in 10 years. Currently, the Toyota Mirai's stack has around 150hp. For F1 we would need 4-5 times as much (Torque would be silly). Now the Mirai gets ~ 450km with 5 kg of compressed hydrogen. 

 

4 times the power for 300km would require (at current efficiency) ~ 12 kilo's hydrogen to finish a race. Hydrogen fuel cell efficiency might not get much better (in regards to hp per kilo of hydrogen), but fuel cells will probably get much much small smaller and storage will get better and lighter (probably solid state versus compressed to 700 bar).

 

Current technology can accomplish these race cars but storage would be tricky beyond 7kg of hydrogen. Refueling would be an option if it can be sped up beyond the current 3 minutes for 5 kilos.

Edited by F1Lurker, 11 June 2015 - 15:54.

[quaint]

That would be fine by me, if it was unlimited. 

 

 "We can't have unlimited engines because they would be too powerful".

Well then, the future is electric.  Why not unlimited electric?  I keep campaigning for this, because F1 *could* be world changing: a ton of money thrown at engineering better batteries and electric motors!  A half-way fence sitting engineering-restricted hybrid is not Formula One, it's just a way of making F1 too expensive and costly for independent teams.

 

THAT IS GREEN AND ROAD CAR RELEVANT. Anything else is a lie. F1 is already behind reality when it comes to "progressive" technology.

 

Batteries are the problem, no matter how unlimited the regs in F1 are – a couple hundred millions a year in R&D won't change that at all. Batteries are terrible compared to combustible fuels in terms of energy per weight or volume, and racing cars being power hungry just aggravate the issue.

 

Unless there's a breakthrough – and we've been waiting it for a century – battery powered racing cars will just about never reach the speeds of the fastest F1 cars, even if you removed practically all the rest of the regulations.

Edited by quaint, 11 June 2015 - 16:14.

[Ben1445]

Batteries are the problem, no matter how unlimited the regs in F1 are – a couple hundred millions a year in R&D won't change that at all. Batteries are terrible compared to combustible fuels in terms of energy per weight or volume, and racing cars being power hungry just aggravate the issue.

 

Unless there's a breakthrough – and we've been waiting it for a century – battery powered racing cars will just about never reach the speeds of the fastest F1 cars, even if you removed practically all the rest of the regulations.

Why not try!?

Most of that century has been spent without the widespread environmental concern...which is increasingly present in younger generations. Necessity may drive this development. And something I've been pondering is that if one of the concerns about F1 is that it's not the fastest it can be then electric cars can offer that. If you have very free electric regulations that, by todays technology, is not going to exceed current speeds then they'll always be on the very edge of possibility. And if they are and it's competitive enough..what's to say that the breakthroughs won't happen? Never say never. 

Edited by Ben1445, 11 June 2015 - 16:24.

[chipmcdonald]

You would basically have to lift the whole car, pull it from underneath and lower the car onto a new battery. It's not your average car battery pack.

 

Lifting the car up in the pits is a problem for F1?

 

Why would I want an "average car" battery pack in F1, anyhow?

 

Lift the car up, quick release mechanism flips forward, battery drops down onto a trolley, gets pulled away, another battery comes in and is electronically lined up with the chassis, hydraulics shove it into the car - no different than the mechanics of putting a battery in a cell phone scaled up.  Not an issue.

[Jon83]

Sounds horrific to me but each to their own. 

[DampMongoose]

Sounds horrific to me but each to their own. 

 

Agreed.  It's interesting technically, but I'm not excited by it as motorsport. 

[ch103]

I understand the reluctance to envision F1 not being powered by fossil fuels but the reality is, in time the dirty petrol industry will be a thing of the past.  I do not think it will take Tesla more than 50 years to create a batter which is equal to the performance of the ICE we have in F1 today.

[chipmcdonald]

Batteries are the problem, no matter how unlimited the regs in F1 are – a couple hundred millions a year in R&D won't change that at all. Batteries are terrible compared to combustible fuels in terms of energy per weight or volume,

 

 There have been plenty of breakthroughs in battery technology involving both nano materials, and design.  It's a matter of scale, scale that could benefit enormously from F1 budgets.  That's the ENTIRE POINT, we WOULD benefit from F1 throwing money at this problem. 

 

If there ever was a great fit for F1 it would be Elon Musk and Tesla.  FOM should go to him an offer the opportunity to put a stripped down P85 on track or some such, like WEC does with the silly Nissan concept trike.  Or for that matter the Drayson electric WEC car, it would be a great story and actual progress; at some point such things are going to have much more capability than IC based cars, it's just down to battery efficiency and motor efficiency.

[chipmcdonald]

Sounds horrific to me but each to their own. 

 

 

It's either that, or give up the entire premise of trying to bodge together a quasi-hybrid system "just because" there are already hybrid vehicles on the road.  Admit IC car racing is an inherently archaic pursuit in the 21st century, and get back to real exotic and powerful IC engines.  The sitting on the fence pretend bs is ridiculous, it's only there to make it impossible for a privateer to upset the status quo.

[Gyno]

Right.... This is the size of a Tesla model S battery pack:

 

And it sits low in the car, to lower the centre of gravity so the car remains driveable. In an F1 car you would do the same. It would cover the whole bottom and as low as possible. It is not something you pull out easily. You would basically have to lift the whole car, pull it from underneath and lower the car onto a new battery. It's not your average car battery pack.

 

 

That's a ROAD car battery.

The road car weights alot and have all kind of stuff in it that draws power.

It's also design to hold power for a long time.

 

I am talking about a Racing car that is light weight,

Doesn't have aircon or electric seat heaters or power windows or a huge touchscreen computer or everything else that draws huge amount of power.

Only needs to hold power for some 30-40 minutes.

 

This here is the current Formula E battery.

 

http://www.fiaformul...aig-wilson.aspx

Edited by Gyno, 11 June 2015 - 16:50.

[Ben1445]

I understand the reluctance to envision F1 not being powered by fossil fuels but the reality is, in time the dirty petrol industry will be a thing of the past.  I do not think it will take Tesla more than 50 years to create a batter which is equal to the performance of the ICE we have in F1 today.

Exactly that. 

I personally am excited by the prospect of this. Sure I would miss the old days of pure ICEs but to see the future begin to take shape is something I would love to see. I want to be able to tell my grandchildren that back in the day, Formula E could only do 140mph and they had to swap cars half way through and for them to laugh in my face at the absurdity. 



 

[RealRacing]

What does the FIA do when the F1 cars are all powered by Tesla batteries?  What happens to Formula E?

Auto racing was never meant to be done with electric cars, at least until they can achieve the same level of performance of their petroleum based counterparts in terms of speed, torque, HP, sound and other "racing" variables. Question is: why try to race with electric cars? They are fine for transportation and that's where they should be fulfilling a very important role. It's about time people start looking at auto racing as something anachronic, meaning it does not need to and shouldn't have any relevance to market or industry, but seen merely as a spectacle in an of itself. 

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Actually it is a brilliant thread because it seems that Formula1 is getting closer to all electric motor. Just ditch petrol engines and bring all electric motors for Formula1. Don't worry about the sound because there are devices that produce every kind of engine sound in low, medium and high revs with synchronizing with the car throttle.

[kevinracefan]

Auto racing was never meant to be done with electric cars

Really??? who made that declaration??? Daimler??

[ch103]

Lets not discount the fact that, while current batteries have significant charge limitations, improvements in solar charging could allow the batteries to constantly recharge while racing.

[Rasputin]

An 85 kWh Tesla battery weighs 540 kg and would last almost 12 minutes for a 450 kW (610 Hp) electrical motor on full song, if it was to replace the current ICE.

 

A terriffic idea, isn't it? 

[ch103]

An 85 kWh Tesla battery weighs 540 kg and would last almost 12 minutes for a 450 kW (610 Hp) electrical motor on full song, if it was to replace the current ICE.

 

A terriffic idea, isn't it? 

 

Use the history and progression of the internal combustion engine as your blue print for how electric batteries will improve.

[quaint]

Lets not discount the fact that, while current batteries have significant charge limitations, improvements in solar charging could allow the batteries to constantly recharge while racing.

 

Yes, we could recharge an electric car even today, using photovoltaics. Even at 100 % efficiency (unreachable forever) it wouldn't provide anywhere near enough to power a racing car – and it'd take another breakthrough to even make it feasible in a racing car (vs. the increased weight of the system).

[BRG]

 

This here is the current Formula E battery.

 

http://www.fiaformul...aig-wilson.aspx

That weighs 200kg, and last how long?  15 laps of a shortish circuit?  It would maybe power you for 6 laps of Spa, at about Formula Ford pace.  Technology needs to advance a lot before anything approaching F1 level will be available.

[quaint]

Use the history and progression of the internal combustion engine as your blue print for how electric batteries will improve.

 

No! Use the history of batteries as your "blue print" on how batteries will improve; we haven't changed combustible fuels at all during all this time; they are, and always were, very good when measuring stored energy per weight or volume (even when taking into account the “inefficiency” of an ICE). Using electricity or batteries to power a vehicle is not a new invention; electric vehicles were used already when ICE vehicles were new; but batteries have hardly improved since then.

Edited by quaint, 11 June 2015 - 18:10.

[RealRacing]

Really??? who made that declaration??? Daimler??

Sorry, some people can't live without the IMO.

[Rasputin]

Use the history and progression of the internal combustion engine as your blue print for how electric batteries will improve.

Actually, batteries has been around about as long as the ICE and there are physical limitations for both.

[Skizo]

If the world moves towards a hydrogen economy I think that an electric formula powered by hydrogen fuel cells is possible in 10 years. Currently, the Toyota Mirai's stack has around 150hp. For F1 we would need 4-5 times as much (Torque would be silly). Now the Mirai gets ~ 450km with 5 kg of compressed hydrogen. 

 

4 times the power for 300km would require (at current efficiency) ~ 12 kilo's hydrogen to finish a race. Hydrogen fuel cell efficiency might not get much better (in regards to hp per kilo of hydrogen), but fuel cells will probably get much much small smaller and storage will get better and lighter (probably solid state versus compressed to 700 bar).

 

Current technology can accomplish these race cars but storage would be tricky beyond 7kg of hydrogen. Refueling would be an option if it can be sped up beyond the current 3 minutes for 5 kilos.

I'm pretty sure that Toyota can't do 450km while using all 150hp.I think the Honda Clarity around the same power and range too,and there is some BMW and GM's fuel cell cars too.It is clearly something a lot of big companies interested in,it would be good to see them in racing series.F1?i doubt it.

[Ben1445]

No! Use the history of batteries as your "blue print" on how batteries will improve; we haven't changed combustible fuels at all during all this time; they are, and always were, very good when measuring stored energy per weight or volume (even when taking into account the “inefficiency” of an ICE). Using electricity or batteries to power a vehicle is not a new invention; electric vehicles were used already when ICE vehicles were new; but batteries have hardly improved since then.

They've hardly improved ​because IC proved to be the easier route to pursuit. That makes sense given the outlook at the time, the requirement was to travel far and quickly and soon and that was provided by IC. There simply has not been the same level of development for electric so it is unfair to compare development on both. 
But the thing is IC will not be easier in the future because the resources will be running out, the world starts to become more environmentally responsible and IC becomes not so acceptable anymore. The requirement has now shifted so that we are going to have to stop using IC. That's the simple fact. 

[pdac]

Auto racing was never meant to be done with electric cars, at least until they can achieve the same level of performance of their petroleum based counterparts in terms of speed, torque, HP, sound and other "racing" variables. Question is: why try to race with electric cars? They are fine for transportation and that's where they should be fulfilling a very important role. It's about time people start looking at auto racing as something anachronic, meaning it does not need to and shouldn't have any relevance to market or industry, but seen merely as a spectacle in an of itself. 

 

I'm sure when cars first came along someone said "why race those when we have horses?"

[Fastcake]

I understand the reluctance to envision F1 not being powered by fossil fuels but the reality is, in time the dirty petrol industry will be a thing of the past.  I do not think it will take Tesla more than 50 years to create a batter which is equal to the performance of the ICE we have in F1 today.

 

While the internal combustion engine will eventually become a thing of the past, the battery technology to support a full electric engine simply is not ready to replace the ICE just yet. Hence the focus on hybrids - you cannot replace the engine entirely, but you can supplement it with technology such as energy recovery. As we see with Formula E, electric cars cannot compete at a high level of performance yet, and likely will not be able to for some considerable time. As long as that is true, F1 and FE will remain on separate, though gradually converging, courses.

[F1Lurker]

I'm pretty sure that Toyota can't do 450km while using all 150hp.I think the Honda Clarity around the same power and range too,and there is some BMW and GM's fuel cell cars too.It is clearly something a lot of big companies interested in,it would be good to see them in racing series.F1?i doubt it.

 

You are right. i doubt "normal' range would be the same at full draw (or even 80% utilization) from the fuel cell.

[Tiakumosan]

Honest question: When these batteries are changed, is there a way to discard them 'eco-friendly'?

[Redback]

Honest question: When these batteries are changed, is there a way to discard them 'eco-friendly'?

 

Depending on the specific chemistry involved, - yes.

 

In the case of a Tesla battery for example, there's two potential stages of recycling.

 

1. Once the battery's capacity has dropped to a point where it's affecting the vehicle's range, it can still be "re-purposed" as a stationary battery for say, solar energy storage.  It may last a further 8 -10 years in that role.

 

2. After that stage, when the battery is no longer efficiently holding charge, more than 80% of the materials can be reprocessed for use in new batteries or for other applications.  The remaining portion is non-toxic and can be used in land-fill or, as recycling technology improves, perhaps serve a more useful function.

 

The amount of heavy metals used in new technology batteries has reduced to an almost insignificant level.

 

On the subject of electric F1, I'm all for the suggestion of a spec ICE supplemented with unlimited battery/regen power.

 

The R&D investment would help road car development, but we'd still have the familiar V8 (or whatever) sound and the speeds to which we're accustomed.

 

Racing could be a great proving-ground for emerging battery technologies (such as Lithium-Carbon, Lithium Sulfur, etc) which offer up to 8 times the energy density of current LiOn batteries, but there's a lot of development to be done to realise that potential.

 

F1 could definitely help with this development, but I suspect that's FE's role.

[ClubmanGT]

You guys should check out the Drayson and its use of structural batteries. If it happens in F1, that's how it will pan out.

Edited by ClubmanGT, 11 June 2015 - 22:24.

[RealRacing]

I'm sure when cars first came along someone said "why race those when we have horses?"

Yes, 'cause that's the same...

[chipmcdonald]

As we see with Formula E, electric cars cannot compete at a high level of performance yet, and likely will not be able to for some considerable time. As long as that is true, F1 and FE will remain on separate, though gradually converging, courses.

 

 

Formula E is another part of the lie.  Hamstrung technology, and no development allowed.  It has zero to do with what would happen if Formula 1 allowed unlimited electric.  This is closer:

 

 

[chipmcdonald]

Honest question: When these batteries are changed, is there a way to discard them 'eco-friendly'?

 

 

You're not discarding them.

[chipmcdonald]

 

Racing could be a great proving-ground for emerging battery technologies (such as Lithium-Carbon, Lithium Sulfur, etc) which offer up to 8 times the energy density of current LiOn batteries, but there's a lot of development to be done to realise that potential.

 

F1 could definitely help with this development, but I suspect that's FE's role.

 

Formula E is completely bottled up.  It's a petrol-industry propaganda lie.  There is zero development - why is that?

 

There are guys racing electric cars at drag strips all over the U.S., people driving Priuses and Leafs, luckier people in Teslas.  Drayson has his LMP 1. 

 

Formula E?  That's the best we can do?  That's a "development platform"?  For what?  Ridiculous petro industry PR, "look at those funny electric cars, they still can hang with good 'ol IC petrol fueled vehicles". 

 

I bet if you challenged the engineers at McLaren, told them they could enter an all electric car with no limits on the power train, they'd be all over it.  I think people would be shocked at what can be done with current leading edge technology in batteries and motors, *when it's allowed*.  It's presently too expensive to sell carbon nanotube/graphen based Li+ batteries as a consumer item, but they exist.  People keep making references to current *consumer* technology.

 

They are NOT too expensive to use by an F1 team, if they were committed to electric on the same scale as IC.  It is a ridiculous waste of money that F1 spends as much as it does on something else.  Which is why, if we are not going to have electric cars, WE SHOULD HAVE REAL V10's AT 20,000 RPM.  Not some bozo pretend hybrid oil-industry propaganda scheme.  "In the future we're going to have "new" technology called "V6" engines and "turbos".  Rubbish, we're going to have electric cars, and actually it won't be long before we won't even be driving cars.  

[Tsarwash]

I'm sensing an amount of internal combustion dogma here. Electric cars will be the norm. It's just a case of how long it takes. 

[ch103]

If F1 and the auto industry want to be viewed as superior to electric cars, then they need to frame the issue - to constantly heighten the current shortcomings of the FE cars and electric power plants in general.  However, F1 has a "sworn obligation" to be "road relevant" for some crazy reason.  Over time, there will be more electric cars than internal combustion cars.  When the time comes that road relevance means electric power - the FIA, F1 and CVC have quite a decision to make.

Edited by ch103, 12 June 2015 - 00:28.

[Kalmake]

F1 car energy output for a GP distance is around 15 Formula E batteries.

[Redback]

Formula E is completely bottled up.  It's a petrol-industry propaganda lie.  There is zero development - why is that?

 

There are guys racing electric cars at drag strips all over the U.S., people driving Priuses and Leafs, luckier people in Teslas.  Drayson has his LMP 1. 

 

Formula E?  That's the best we can do?  That's a "development platform"?  For what?  Ridiculous petro industry PR, "look at those funny electric cars, they still can hang with good 'ol IC petrol fueled vehicles". 

 

I bet if you challenged the engineers at McLaren, told them they could enter an all electric car with no limits on the power train, they'd be all over it.  I think people would be shocked at what can be done with current leading edge technology in batteries and motors, *when it's allowed*.  It's presently too expensive to sell carbon nanotube/graphen based Li+ batteries as a consumer item, but they exist.  People keep making references to current *consumer* technology.

 

They are NOT too expensive to use by an F1 team, if they were committed to electric on the same scale as IC.  It is a ridiculous waste of money that F1 spends as much as it does on something else.  Which is why, if we are not going to have electric cars, WE SHOULD HAVE REAL V10's AT 20,000 RPM.  Not some bozo pretend hybrid oil-industry propaganda scheme.  "In the future we're going to have "new" technology called "V6" engines and "turbos".  Rubbish, we're going to have electric cars, and actually it won't be long before we won't even be driving cars.  

As FE is opened-up, I assume it will become more of a development formula, but you're right, at present it's artificially constrained by specification restrictions and unfortunately that creates the impression (amongst those who don't read very much) that FE is the best we can do with electric power.

 

As you say, - give a firm like McLaren a blank design sheet, no restrictions and an F1-level budget and what they'd come up with would amaze most people.

[Redback]

F1 car energy output for a GP distance is around 15 Formula E batteries.

Yes, - but FE batteries are hardly even a representative example of what's possible today, let alone what would be possible with F1-level R&D resources thrown at the equation.