55 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

What a bad performance from Nissan. Was that the worst race for a automobile manufactor in Le Mans? What other examples were there?

[chunder27]

WM, end of thread.

[scheivlak]

A candidate is Aston Martin with the AMR-One in 2011. The two cars ran a collective total of six laps (2+4) before the last of the pair officially retired in fourth hour.

[Stephane]

Not in the same way, but Mercedes efforts in 1998 and 1999 were "chaotic"

[scheivlak]

WM, end of thread.

Not at all, they succeeded in what they tried to achieve: doing 400+ km/h on the Mulsanne straight.

[Massa]

A candidate is Aston Martin with the AMR-One in 2011. The two cars ran a collective total of six laps (2+4) before the last of the pair officially retired in fourth hour.

 

 

This.

[chunder27]

Hardly a wirthwhile endeavour in a 24 hour race though is it!  But I guess they were not really manufacturer backed, but did not they use Peugeot engines?

 

People attacking Nissan are really missing the point.  It is just as much about making a splash as it is about winning for them.

 

They culd do a Citroen, spend a vast amount on a championship no-one gives a damn abotu and make it look ridiculous.

 

but theya re trying something differnet, new and visionary.

 

Who cares if it works. 

 

A serious one. Panoz?  Cadillac? Chrysler? 

Edited by chunder27, 15 June 2015 - 09:37.

[Henri Greuter]

The Pagani Zonda at Le Mans 2003.

 

The Jaguar in the GT class of about 2010 or 2011, anyway, not so long ago

 

Some Lamborghini efforts by the Japanese Lambo club were also a sheer waste of entry for a more decent car.

[KOMORI]

Always enjoyed this flip from Mercedes...




On another note, I don't recall the current layout being quite so undulating? I'm either slightly mad or perhaps yesterday's viewing didn't really show the humps in the straight.. I dunno?

[Christbiscuit]

Nissan have taken a radical route with some really visionary thinking and design. I think Toyota had a more disappointing Le Mans than them this year. I don't see their efforts as a failure at all. It's early into the lifespan of that car and, if they can deliver on the promise it shows, it could be one of the great car designs. It's such a depressing facet of modern society that everything is judged and dismissed instantly as the greatest or worst things ever when it frequently is clearly nothing of the sort. A pox upon such pointless sensationalisation. I blame Sky News.

Edited by Christbiscuit, 15 June 2015 - 10:02.

[KOMORI]

the track was modified, with the "bumps" flatened out after the flips, that's why you didn't noticed them this year

I find that sad really. Takes the character away from the circuit... Fair enough don't want to see cars sailing into the scenery like the Merc's of that era but surely today's aerodynamicists would have that sorted out..

[thiscocks]

I find that sad really. Takes the character away from the circuit... Fair enough don't want to see cars sailing into the scenery like the Merc's of that era but surely today's aerodynamicists would have that sorted out..

They took away most of the tracks character when they put two stupid chicanes on the muslaine

[taran]

Nissan have taken a radical route with some really visionary thinking and design. I think Toyota had a more disappointing Le Mans than them this year. I don't see their efforts as a failure at all. It's early into the lifespan of that car and, if they can deliver on the promise it shows, it could be one of the great car designs. It's such a depressing facet of modern society that everything is judged and dismissed instantly as the greatest or worst things ever when it frequently is clearly nothing of the sort. A pox upon such pointless sensationalisation. I blame Sky News.

 

Why would you think this? While I am sure Toyota is dissappointed, they put in a professional performance. Nissan was a joke on the other hand. This may be due to the newness of the car and maybe a more sorted effort will show a (much) greater turn of speed. But if the car wasn't ready, they shouldn't have been racing it. They entered the race and thus a decent performance is expected. And since their performance was simply below par, criticism is well deserved.

[Dan333SP]

The Cadillac and Chrysler (the Dallara LMP, not viper) efforts in the early 2000s were pretty disappointing, but next to the AMR One they were huge successes. The fact that Pescarolo bought the AMR chassis and turned it into their own crap wagon still amazes me. That car contributed to the downfall of Henri's team.

There are probably some good examples from the Group C era as well.

One that springs to mind-

https://en.m.wikiped...g/wiki/BRM_P351

Like the AMR One, it appeared at LM as a miserable failure and then still managed to reappear in a different form (open top with a Nissan engine) but it was still a disaster.

[Dan333SP]

Replying to myself, but the Ford C100 at LM in 1982 was a pretty big letdown as well.

[chunder27]

I was going to write BRM but did not relaise they ever tried tog et to LM, thought it was only a short circuit car!

[Dan333SP]

I've always wanted to find a video of that car because it ran a modern version of the Weslake V12 from Gurney Eagle fame, probably sounded very nice, but it completed so few laps in its career that it's almost impossible!

Edit: here we go.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=_vrE3yLqfe4

It runs for a brief moment at the end. The noise is fantastic!

Edited by Dan333SP, 15 June 2015 - 11:06.

[Christbiscuit]

Why would you think this? While I am sure Toyota is dissappointed, they put in a professional performance. Nissan was a joke on the other hand. This may be due to the newness of the car and maybe a more sorted effort will show a (much) greater turn of speed. But if the car wasn't ready, they shouldn't have been racing it. They entered the race and thus a decent performance is expected. And since their performance was simply below par, criticism is well deserved.

 

Why? Because it's a radical design which takes courage to do and time to develop. If they had built a conventional car and sucked balls then, sure, update your blog with a stinging article for all the internet to see but, when you're trying something which hasn't been done before setbacks and harsh lessons are to be expected. It's utterly stupid to dismiss the concept and effort at such an early stage in its development. Maybe the concept will never fully work, but now is not the time when that beomes clear. They will have learned a hell of a lot over the last few weeks, a lot more than they would have if they had spent the same time in testing.

[Felix]

I was going to write BRM but did not relaise they ever tried tog et to LM, thought it was only a short circuit car!

Don't know what you're trying to say there, but BRM did run Le Mans, in 1963/5, with a Rover turbine engine. Not at all shabby: nominal 8th in 63, and tenth in 65 (with Hill/Stewart) despite damaged turbine tips and regenerators. 

[KOMORI]

I've always wanted to find a video of that car because it ran a modern version of the Weslake V12 from Gurney Eagle fame, probably sounded very nice, but it completed so few laps in its career that it's almost impossible!

Edit: here we go.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=_vrE3yLqfe4

It runs for a brief moment at the end. The noise is fantastic!

That's a really cool little clip.. What. A. Sound!!!

Glorious

[Imateria]

WM, end of thread.

 

The Pagani Zonda at Le Mans 2003.

 

The Jaguar in the GT class of about 2010 or 2011, anyway, not so long ago

 

Some Lamborghini efforts by the Japanese Lambo club were also a sheer waste of entry for a more decent car.

Non of these are manufacturer entries.

 

I don't know how much support Peugeot offered WM but they're still only a small race team from France (a near permenant backmarker at that, I think 95 might be the only year they've run close to the front). The Zonda was an effort from Phillip Alliot's Force One Racing squad and it's biggest problem was the Merc V12 in the back which Mercedes offered no help with. JLOC are the Japanese Lambourghini Owners Club, I think the name speaks for itself in that regard.

 

I'd completely forgotten about the GT2 Jags, yeah they really didn't do well and were sort of a works team.

 

I find that sad really. Takes the character away from the circuit... Fair enough don't want to see cars sailing into the scenery like the Merc's of that era but surely today's aerodynamicists would have that sorted out..

 

Cars getting airborne at Le Mans has been a big problem for years before and after the Mercs did it, flattening the humps is part of what has reduced the chances of that happening again. I'll certainly take that over cars flipping into the trees anyday.

 

 

The Cadillac and Chrysler (the Dallara LMP, not viper) efforts in the early 2000s were pretty disappointing, but next to the AMR One they were huge successes. The fact that Pescarolo bought the AMR chassis and turned it into their own crap wagon still amazes me. That car contributed to the downfall of Henri's team.

There are probably some good examples from the Group C era as well.

One that springs to mind-

https://en.m.wikiped...g/wiki/BRM_P351

Like the AMR One, it appeared at LM as a miserable failure and then still managed to reappear in a different form (open top with a Nissan engine) but it was still a disaster.

 

I think for recent decades the AMR-One really takes the biscuit here, that straight eight engine just didn't work, but there wasn't really anything wrong with the tub. Pescarolo's downfall was the complete and total lack of money sadly, he couldn't get the Judd engine instilation sorted out on either his own car or the Dome S102.5 that he ran in 2011 and the S102 had a very good run first time out in 2008 when Dome did it themselves. It also worked well as the tub for the original Deltawing, which no mater what some people might think actually did well (ran at it's intended LMP2 pace despite giving away over 200hp and had no trouble with cornoring speeds).   

[BRG]

. It also worked well as the tub for the original Deltawing, which no mater what some people might think actually did well (ran at it's intended LMP2 pace despite giving away over 200hp and had no trouble with cornoring speeds).   

This nonsense again.  The Deltawing weighed only 500kg, way below the minimun weight limit for LPM2, so its power to weight ratio was far better than the LMP2s and indeed matched the LMP1s!  Yet it was slower than all of them and qualified last of the prototypes.  The only reason for that has be that it had big trouble with cornering speed.  Which was clear if you saw it on the slow corners like Arnage.

[JHSingo]

Surely the Nissan Zeod has to be up there? Didn't that go out in the first half an hour or something, a couple of years ago?

[Diablobb81]

A candidate is Aston Martin with the AMR-One in 2011. The two cars ran a collective total of six laps (2+4) before the last of the pair officially retired in fourth hour.

 

This one.

[BRG]

It must be a contest between Aston's dreadful AMR-1 and Nissan's last three awful efforts - Deltawing, Zeod and the current p.o.s.  But at least Aston can say that have won Le Mans.

[GSiebert]

Aston Martin in general. Awful in 1982-83-84 with Nimrod, awful in 1989 again and again in 2011.

 

Audi's first closed car was a disaster too in 1999.

Edited by GSiebert, 15 June 2015 - 13:21.

[Ross Stonefeld]

All of which probably got as much press attention as winning outright, so depending on what your goals are...

I know we live in an age of listicles and hyperbole, but Nissan this year wasn't that bad. I'd rather be running that team than the 99 Merc squad.

[Imateria]

Aston Martin in general. Awful in 1982-83-84 with Nimrod, awful in 1989 again and again in 2011.

 

Audi's first closed car was a disaster too in 1999.

I think you need to reavaluate your definition of aweful. The Nimrod Aston's weren't great but they did score several top 10 and 3rd in class at the 83 Sebring 12 Hours. The AMR-1 wasn't bad either though it certainly wasn't great and could have been much better if Ford hadn't decided to shut the programe down as it was racing against Jaguar. The AMR-One was terrible though.

 

Exactly how can the R8R, a car that finished 3rd at Le Mans in 99, be considered amongst the worst manufacturer entries of all time?

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think they mean the R8C.

[ensign14]

Technically MiG was a manufacturer...another Fulvio Ballabio time-waste.

[mikeC]

The 1931 Arrol Aster was pretty pathetic: with 2.5 litres it couldn't match the speed of the 750cc MG...

[FerrariV12]

I think the R8C was Audi just spreading their bets, it wasn't obvious under the rules at the time whether opened or closed LMP was the way to go, so they did both, before focussing on the open top with the R8 in 2000.

 

I do remember the R8C also being a bit rushed in comparison to the R8R, it did form the basis of the subsequent Bentley effort though, another closed car with the Audi engine, and also run by the Audi UK/Apex Motorsport team.

[KnucklesAgain]

They took away most of the tracks character when they put two stupid chicanes on the muslaine

 

It was obviously very important to you. 

[BobbyRicky]

It must be a contest between Aston's dreadful AMR-1 and Nissan's last three awful efforts - Deltawing, Zeod and the current p.o.s.  But at least Aston can say that have won Le Mans.

 

Did a Nissan run over your dog or something?

[Imateria]

I think they mean the R8C.

*Face palm* Yes, he quite obviously meant the R8C. No idea why I took it to mean the R8R, and as FerrariV12 has said, it was a rushed car (put together in about 9 months if I remember right), ran in the top 10 and formed the basis of the first Bentley EXP Speed 8. Better than the closed cars from Lister and Panoz thats for certain.

 

 

Technically MiG was a manufacturer...another Fulvio Ballabio time-waste.

Thats a contender. Oliver Gavin said he took one look at it and walked out of the garage instead of drive the POS.

[milestone 11]

I was going to write BRM but did not relaise they ever tried tog et to LM, thought it was only a short circuit car!

There was of course the Rover-BRM which Stewart and Hill took to tenth.
Edit
Dan333sp and Felix beat me to it.

Edited by milestone 11, 15 June 2015 - 21:07.

[DeKnyff]

Well, I don't if it can be properly considered as a "constructor" or not, but the results of the Dome Zero entry of 1979 were truly pathetic, despite decent drivers, well proven V8 Cosworth power and an important media coverage (I imagine they were good at PR).

 

The cars were among the weirdest looking ever.

 

Edited by DeKnyff, 15 June 2015 - 21:23.

[travbrad]

Always enjoyed this flip from Mercedes...




On another note, I don't recall the current layout being quite so undulating? I'm either slightly mad or perhaps yesterday's viewing didn't really show the humps in the straight.. I dunno?

 

It was a lot easier to notice the humps at night I noticed.  There were big dark shadows from their lights in the "downhill" parts of the humps.

[George Costanza]

1994 Bugatti EB110?

Edited by George Costanza, 16 June 2015 - 00:18.

[George Costanza]

Not in the same way, but Mercedes efforts in 1998 and 1999 were "chaotic"

1999: I agree.

 

1998? No. the CLK LM was the fastest car there was at Le Mans 1998; only to have engine issues.  It won the FIA GT Title, so it can't be that bad.

Edited by George Costanza, 16 June 2015 - 00:17.

[Dan333SP]

I've got another good one. The 1997 Lotus Elise GT1. Never close to competitive. They ran only 1 car at LM that year because they expected it to be slow and unreliable, and they were right.

 

Reading about this car reminded me of one of those random historical tidbits- a team called Elite Racing bought a 7 year old Lotus GT1 chassis and actually ran int in 2004 at Sebring in the GTP class, trying to compete with Audi R8s. Not the smartest decision, given that the car wasn't competitive with other GT1s, much less protos after nearly a decade of development.

 

This also reminds me of the later Lotus Evora GTE effort, which wasn't much better...

Edited by Dan333SP, 16 June 2015 - 03:37.

[SR388]

What did Cadillac do with the Northstar LMP car?

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

Ford spent an insane amount of money, entered three cars for the 1964 LeMans, and not one finished.

 

I love to use this example to point out the impatience of fans who do not understand that this kind of stuff takes time. Two years later, those Fords (obviously developed) did this ... 1 - 2 - 3

 

 

The ugliest entry has to be "Le Monstre"

 

[Henri Greuter]

What did Cadillac do with the Northstar LMP car?

 

 

A bit like Toyota: Not spending enough money and not being detemined enough to succeed against Audi and hope that a fair amount of efforts and money will do the job against the total commitment and massive budget of Audi.

 

 

Henri

[Henri Greuter]

I've got another good one. The 1997 Lotus Elise GT1. Never close to competitive. They ran only 1 car at LM that year because they expected it to be slow and unreliable, and they were right.

 

Reading about this car reminded me of one of those random historical tidbits- a team called Elite Racing bought a 7 year old Lotus GT1 chassis and actually ran int in 2004 at Sebring in the GTP class, trying to compete with Audi R8s. Not the smartest decision, given that the car wasn't competitive with other GT1s, much less protos after nearly a decade of development.

 

This also reminds me of the later Lotus Evora GTE effort, which wasn't much better...

 

 

The 1997 efforts were compromised due to rule changes that were havoc on turbocharged engines. The initial 1997 car had a turbocharged V8 but when that was chanceless they hastily replaced it with a normally aspirated Chevy V8 which was indeed faster.

I am not gonna say that the Elise stood a chance with the original engine but the car was pretty much compromised.

 

The same rule changes effectively also eliminated the first generation 911GT1 '96 that had been made available for customers and made the series a battle between the Mercedes and Longtail McLarens. Both these cars were powered by normally aspirated V12s of some 6 liter capacity.

Need I say more?

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 16 June 2015 - 10:02.

[Vitesse2]

Ford spent an insane amount of money, entered three cars for the 1964 LeMans, and not one finished.

 

I love to use this example to point out the impatience of fans who do not understand that this kind of stuff takes time. Two years later, those Fords (obviously developed) did this ... 1 - 2 - 3

 

 

Well, yes. But I notice you omitted 1965, when not one of the six various GT40 variants - all works-backed in one way or another (Shelby/FAVO/Ford France) - finished. But to be fair, all five works Ferrari P2s, all six works Alpines and all three Autodelta Alfas (works-backed) failed too!

[BRG]

Did a Nissan run over your dog or something?

They tried to.  But they weren't quick enough to catch it.  And my dog only has three legs..... 

[byrkus]

What about Maserati... Winners on practically every other circuit and race, but at Le Mans never anything of notice.

 

 

They tried to.  But they weren't quick enough to catch it.  And my dog only has three legs..... 

 

So your dog is like a Deltawing...

[Dan333SP]

They were at least competitive in the 50s even if they didn't win. I think this topic is more about abject failures that could hardly run a lap, even in the hands of "factory" teams.

[Henri Greuter]

Well, yes. But I notice you omitted 1965, when not one of the six various GT40 variants - all works-backed in one way or another (Shelby/FAVO/Ford France) - finished. But to be fair, all five works Ferrari P2s, all six works Alpines and all three Autodelta Alfas (works-backed) failed too!

 

 

Not mentioning the feact that the three surviving cars of 1966 were what was left of a flotillia of 8 MKII's that started the race.....

I have read that Quenting Spurrung once stated in one of his books that Ford had entered 15 (!) cars of which 8 were eventually accepted.....

 

 

Henri