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Alonso, Button, McLaren, and Autosport's "objectivity"


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#1 prty

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 18:11

Autosport, although never was objective, is always thought as being more so than other publications.

I don't read it now as often as before, so it's even more remarkable that this caught my eye. But it is getting hilarious, desperately trying to cause a fight between McLaren and Alonso, while portraying Button as the gracious team supporter:

 

Headline: Alonso: I was made to look amateur

Expanded headline once you click: Canadian GP: McLaren F1's Fernando Alonso felt he looked 'amateur'

Actual quotes:

"Already I have big problems now. Driving with this, looking like an amateur. So I race and then I concentrate on fuel."

"no frustration" adding: "It was just a disagreement on when to save fuel.

"Different parts of a race require different techniques of driving, so when you are in the middle of a battle, fuel is a low priority in that moment.

"You will have time later to focus on fuel. Let me race and then I'll save fuel later."

"You are fighting and then you get to a group of cars where some people catch you and they are faster than you," he said.

"You look like an amateur driver and that's not good.

"We know we are not super-competitive, that we need to improve reliability.

"There are many things to do in our case. The weekend has provided us with some lessons to improve things. It was not easy here in Canada."

 

Today, top news item and visible intro: With Austria demanding on engines and Eric Boullier admitting Fernando Alonso could "turn mad" over McLaren-Honda form, the team faces a crunch weekend.

Content in the article:

 

WILL ALONSO 'TURN MAD'?

1434534912.jpg

Come the race in Canada the first signs of dissent from the previously all-smiling Fernando Alonso appeared with his radio rant after being told after just a third of the way into the event to save fuel.

"I don't want! I don't want!" bellowed Alonso in reply, further bitterly declaring himself to be "looking like an amateur" as rivals passed to his left and right with consummate ease at times.

Alonso later claimed there was "no frustration", just "a disagreement on when to save fuel". How very PR once his adrenalin had subsided post-race.

Actual Boullier's quotes:

"If we are still like this next year, then yes, of course, I'm sure he is going to turn mad, but I don't think he will," said Boullier.

"You guys [the media] see him regularly and you can see he is happy with the team, happy where he is now."

Boullier suggested afterwards Alonso's words were perhaps a message to Honda to get its act together, appreciating the Spaniard's "impatience".

"There is a lot of work to do, first on making the parts reliable and then we can focus on performance because we are still far behind," added Boullier.

 

 

 

Meanwhile, for Button:

 

Jenson Button urges Formula 1 critics to give McLaren-Honda a break Ian Parkes (main news item back in that day).

Inside that, suddenly one finds suddenly, unconnected, in the middle of the text: Team-mate Fernando Alonso went so far as to say he believed he was made to look like "an amateur driver" during the race.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, it is fine if they keep helping Button as that's what national press do with all drivers.

But then they shouldn't enjoy the "objective" reputation they might have (which on the other hand, is decaying over the years).


Edited by prty, 17 June 2015 - 18:14.


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#2 Beamer

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 18:18

Well.... he did actually say that....

#3 xmoonrakerx

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 18:19

This didn't need a thread...

 

/thread



#4 ardbeg

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 18:20

I think Autosport is moving more and more towards opinions (driver ratings, verdict and whatnots). Difference to the forums are getting smaller. But what can they do? F1 is about keeping secrets.



#5 Mat13

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 18:21

Yep, these things actually happened. Does this bring into question your objectivity regarding Alonso vs. Button?

#6 Maustinsj

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 18:25

Sensationalism sells.

#7 Marklar

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 18:26

To be fair. Autosport is in the McLaren/Alonso case relatively objective if you compare it to the German media...

#8 YoungGun

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 18:37

It seemed like a good idea at the time?



#9 Imateria

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 19:00

You're clutching at straws by the sounds of things. Button, Alonso and Boullier all made those quotes you listed, are you suggesting that Autosport should ignore them and not do their job or worse yet, deliberalty misquote them to portray things a certain way?



#10 SophieB

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 19:30

This seems more suited to Website Feedback as it is directly commenting on the editorial direction of Autosport, so I'm moving it there from Racing Comments.

Edited to add: and now here we are!

#11 as65p

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 20:45

Well, it's all to be expected. Just imagine Alonso had made those sarcastic remarks Button made last year in Austin during the race. It would still frequently be cited as an example of "driver going mad". But as it was Button, the british media didn't care. To the extent that I'm sure many people won't even know what I'm talking of. :D



#12 as65p

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 20:51

You're clutching at straws by the sounds of things. Button, Alonso and Boullier all made those quotes you listed, are you suggesting that Autosport should ignore them and not do their job or worse yet, deliberalty misquote them to portray things a certain way?

 

No, Autosport is [still] serious enough never to misquote people. Buit there are other means. A controversial quote can be used never, once, or 10 times.



#13 jimmonson

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 15:56

Well, it's all to be expected. Just imagine Alonso had made those sarcastic remarks Button made last year in Austin during the race. It would still frequently be cited as an example of "driver going mad". But as it was Button, the british media didn't care. To the extent that I'm sure many people won't even know what I'm talking of. :D

 

 as65p, you seem to be under the impression that the British media 100% support British drivers regardless of whats happening on the track . I do not believe this to be true at all . In fact it's often the very opposite . Damon Hill regularly got a verbal bashing from them in contrast to the love they had for Michael Schumacher for example . Jenson Button has had plenty of critics too . Maybe not lately ,as its now obvious he's not the problem at McLaren Honda .  But it is a British media tendency to be harsh , particularly against their own countrymen .

  

  I think most reasonable folk would have thought "yes" and agreed with Fernando's remarks anyway . I thought he was spot on. 

  

  I felt exactly the same way only more so regarding Jenson's remarks last year , he quite rightly expressed his displeasure to the team when they repeatedly messed up his race even though he was the faster driver . It was not fair treatment and he was frustrated with it . Don't understand why anyone would think he was wrong who watched the races last year .


Edited by jimmonson, 18 June 2015 - 15:59.


#14 as65p

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 16:38

 as65p, you seem to be under the impression that the British media 100% support British drivers regardless of whats happening on the track . I do not believe this to be true at all . In fact it's often the very opposite . Damon Hill regularly got a verbal bashing from them in contrast to the love they had for Michael Schumacher for example . Jenson Button has had plenty of critics too . Maybe not lately ,as its now obvious he's not the problem at McLaren Honda .  But it is a British media tendency to be harsh , particularly against their own countrymen .

  

  I think most reasonable folk would have thought "yes" and agreed with Fernando's remarks anyway . I thought he was spot on. 

  

  I felt exactly the same way only more so regarding Jenson's remarks last year , he quite rightly expressed his displeasure to the team when they repeatedly messed up his race even though he was the faster driver . It was not fair treatment and he was frustrated with it . Don't understand why anyone would think he was wrong who watched the races last year .

 

No, not 100 percent, of course not. And don't get me wrong, I still think british motoring press is top, better in any case than over here in Germany. That doesn't mean they're perfect, or that they don't have any bias. And sometimes that shows, like here. Sticking to Autosport, I think they're more than happy to talk about Alonsos projected "boiling point", "going mad", whatever, again and again and again. Far more in any case than they like to talk about it when Button shows [mostly understandable) signs of frustration.

 

That's all.



#15 Zmeej

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 18:00

Re objectivity, will restate (slightly modified) an opinion formulated in the Paddock Club:

 

***

 

"Objectivity" (as a perspective, a stance) is, strictly speaking, impossible.

 

Every individual and every medium of communication has their/its inherent subjectivity/perspective/bias, etc.

 

In some ways, "objectivity" is a worthy aspirational abstract goal, as long as one remains aware that it cannot be attained, and that all claims by anyone that they have achieved it are false.

 

In some ways, it's better to abandon pretenses about and aspirations to objectivity, and just be as honest as possible, and be in denial about as little as possible. As such, in far too many cases, "objectivity" functions as a toxic delusion - both for those who assert (incorrectly) that it's possible, and for those readers/viewers/etc. who demand it as a standard.

 

***

 

In this specific case, the issue might be a worry if Austosport made any claims about maintaiing strict objectivity (an impossibility).

 

AFAIK, nobody associated with the website and/or print publication has.

 

 

prty :wave:

 

From what you've posted and based on the reactions of other posters, it seems that accuracy (which is both possible and desirable) has not only been achieved by Autosport reporters, editors, et alia, but maintained.

 

As such, IMO, there is little or nothing to complain about.


Edited by Zmeej, 22 June 2015 - 17:27.


#16 Afterburner

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 21:43

As I believe Dr. Phil said to the delusional owner of Amy's Baking Company following her complaints that Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares made her look like a lunatic: "But you actually said those things."

 

The press are vultures devoid of morals, fed by fools desperate for a story no matter how contrived; obfuscation or clarity, whichever nets more cash will rule the day. As a public figure, it's your job to cope. Have fun.



#17 SophieB

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 05:19

Well, it's all to be expected. Just imagine Alonso had made those sarcastic remarks Button made last year in Austin during the race. It would still frequently be cited as an example of "driver going mad". But as it was Button, the british media didn't care. To the extent that I'm sure many people won't even know what I'm talking of. :D


I'll help prove your point because I genuinely can't remember. Was it the time he got all frustrated and said stuff like 'are you serious?!' over the team radio when McLaren got indecisive over pitting him? I forget because it wasn't a massive deal, nor does my memory get reinforced by it being brought up each time there's a new story about Button or McLaren.

#18 as65p

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 11:02

I'll help prove your point because I genuinely can't remember. Was it the time he got all frustrated and said stuff like 'are you serious?!' over the team radio when McLaren got indecisive over pitting him? I forget because it wasn't a massive deal, nor does my memory get reinforced by it being brought up each time there's a new story about Button or McLaren.

 

Yeah, something like that, though IIRC the conversation went back and forth a bit and also involved when to pit Magnussens car.

 

Here is all I could find quickly:

 

 

"Are you sure I can come in? Anybody else you want me to let through?"

 

 

After McLaren cancel his initial pit stop so team-mate Kevin Magnussen could come in early, Jenson Button, upset at letting three cars past on the next lap, reveals the British penchant for sarcasm is alive and well.
 

Read more at http://en.espnf1.com...LrF5gd6QcBJj.99

 
Quite funny and not a big deal in my book, but neither was Alonsos "amateur" comment, IMO. Yet the latter is milked by Autosport a lot more than the former was. Despite there being potential to construe a controversy story from Buttons "outburst", as him and Magnussen were still competing for the 2015 seat at the time, nobody at Autosport picked up on it, as I suspect they would have, had it been Alonso talking instead of Button.
 

 


#19 SophieB

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 11:15

Looks like I was conflating that example with an incident from Abu Dhabi qualifying. It's noted near the end of this article (as opposed to the headline): http://www.autosport...t.php/id/116906
 

Button qualified in eighth position and was forced to abort a run in Q2 after his team found it had not added enough fuel to complete it.
The Briton was heard saying "Are you serious?" on the radio after the team asked him to return to the pits.
"It's full of emotion in qualifying - especially when you have almost finished your lap and you see that it is good enough to be inside the top 10 in Q2," he said.

 

 

He's correct about the emotion/adrenaline thing, of course but then (as you say), it's as true for Alonso.



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#20 BRG

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 18:42

I am amused to hear that anyone really believes that there are any objective media channels.



#21 chunder27

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 13:49

Having worked in the motorsport media I can tell you for nothing there is no bias.

 

The only bias is really with Brits if you are working in the UK. That is pretty much it.

 

And a certain bias towards the bigger sports at the cost of lesser ones.

 

But the media is nothign like the dailies and stuff.



#22 BRG

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Posted 20 June 2015 - 20:23

Don't be naive.  Everyone has an angle that colours their work, whether consciously or unconsciously.



#23 Zmeej

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 17:24

Afterburner :wave:

 

The press are vultures devoid of morals, fed by fools desperate for a story no matter how contrived; obfuscation or clarity, whichever nets more cash will rule the day.

 

There are individual vultures, and even outlets of a vulturic mindset, who are constituent, even leading, members of the fifth estate. However, IMO, to tar everyone who is a journalist and every journalistic institution with this generalisation is grossly unfair.

 

As a public figure, it's your job to cope. Have fun.

 

Unfortunately, true enough. :up:

 

Vae individi famam quaerentes.


Edited by Zmeej, 22 June 2015 - 17:25.


#24 Afterburner

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Posted 23 June 2015 - 21:17

Afterburner :wave:

 

 

There are individual vultures, and even outlets of a vulturic mindset, who are constituent, even leading, members of the fifth estate. However, IMO, to tar everyone who is a journalist and every journalistic institution with this generalisation is grossly unfair.

 

 

Unfortunately, true enough. :up:

 

Vae individi famam quaerentes.

'Generalisation' being the key word. Was in a pretty foul mood that day, as it turns out. :lol:

 

Of course not everyone in the press is a vulture. :)



#25 Zmeej

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 22:03

Happens to the best of us. Glad you're in better spirits. :up:



#26 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 11:35

Having worked in the motorsport media I can tell you for nothing there is no bias.


And that's exactly why there's so much. Most of it is the soft-corruption.

#27 prty

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Posted 23 August 2015 - 19:09

Surely this, the sarcastic remarks in qualifying and before the start of the race, and the use of expressions like "embarrasing" in the post race interview, will receive equal coverage as Alonso's words in Autosport, right?

 

 

right??

 ;)



#28 prty

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Posted 05 September 2015 - 17:07

And here we go again. Frontpage:

 

"McLaren has no hope" -Alonso

 

4fvpmg.jpg

 

When you click on it, it specifies "McLaren has no hope in Monza" -Alonso:

 

28ajnl1.jpg

 

In the actual Alonso quotes, the word "hope" is not even to be found.

 

Congrats Autosport, you did it again! :lol:



#29 wookles

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Posted 17 September 2015 - 19:49

A quote from the Ben Anderson article today..Should McLaren keep Button?

 

"Alonso is generally considered one of, if not the best in the business right now. He's never been beaten by a team-mate over a full season together"

 

Sorry Ben, he was actually beaten in 2007. Level on points and race wins with Hamilton but 3rd in the Championship due to the number of 2nd places.

 

I know its splitting hairs somewhat, but beaten is beaten. I mean, we could argue that Prost actually beat Senna in 1988 by 11 points, but he didn't did he?

 

I cant help feeling Ben was bending the truth to suit his point somewhat here.

 

Update - 18-Sep.

 

The article has now been changed to read."He's never been outscored by a team-mate over a full season together"

 

Can't argue with that. Thanks for the aleration Ben/Autosport.


Edited by wookles, 18 September 2015 - 21:22.


#30 prty

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Posted 20 September 2015 - 08:15

And more :)

If Alonso were this sarcastic, his quotes would be on Autosport frontpage in the form of news and columnist opinions for several weeks

 

http://www.skysports...in-next-2-weeks



#31 prty

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 10:15

Congrats Autosport you finally did it! :D

 

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/121032

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/121037



#32 Option1

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Posted 27 September 2015 - 19:00

Geeez, so you don't like the editorial slant of stories about your favourite love-muffin driver.  Big freaking deal.  Boo blubbity hooo...  :rolleyes:

 

Neil



#33 as65p

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 07:09

Geeez, so you don't like the editorial slant of stories about your favourite love-muffin driver.  Big freaking deal.  Boo blubbity hooo...  :rolleyes:

 

Neil

 

He only provided a few links. Big freaking deal indeed. No need to get worked up just because you don't like the story they tell.



#34 prty

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Posted 28 September 2015 - 15:45

Geeez, so you don't like the editorial slant of stories about your favourite love-muffin driver.  Big freaking deal.  Boo blubbity hooo...  :rolleyes:

 

Neil

 

Well, this subforum is to give opinions of the editorials too.

If you don't like it, boo blubbity hooo :)



#35 ardbeg

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 17:17

Just a small detail, but maybe something to consider. I'm talking about the picture of Kimi in this article:
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/121212

Surely it must have been a decision to use a picture were he looks... ehm odd? There are  thousands other pictures. But whoever produced that story does not like Kimi, does he? Or she.
 

1444317006.jpg


Edited by ardbeg, 08 October 2015 - 17:19.


#36 prty

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Posted 08 October 2015 - 17:37

Interesting again that apparently Button said similar things on the radio. As always, there was maximum attention on those :)