87 replies to this topic

[FullThrottleF1]

Dieters article on AS+ basically stating to be ready for Renault to pack its bags and leave at the end of 2016.   

Edited by FullThrottleF1, 17 June 2015 - 17:35.

[Felix]

Dieters article on AS+ basically stating to be ready for Renault to pack its bags and leave at the end of 2015.   

 

end of 2016 - says clearly at the end: Indeed, if usually reliable sources are to be believed, the relationship has soured to such an extent that RBR has commenced negotiations for Ferrari engines for when its contract expires at the end of 2016.

[Henri Greuter]

Dieters article on AS+ basically stating to be ready for Renault to pack its bags and leave at the end of 2015.   

 

 

If that means they will start up a WEC program, LET THEM GET OUT ASAP !!!!!!

 

New participant in WEC to look forward to and F1 collapsing around Ecclestone even more, sounds too good to be true.

 

 

Henri

[hittheapex]

Manufacturers come and go. That's why the current direction towards 3 car manufacturer isn't good, because even after success, manufacturers may decide to leave, such as Renault and Honda in the past. When success isn't forthcoming, it's even more tempting to leave given the vast sums involved in F1 and the availability of other major series with a decent following and TV coverage: various touring car series, the WEC, rallying, etc.

[V8 Fireworks]

Dieters article on AS+ basically stating to be ready for Renault to pack its bags and leave at the end of 2015.   

 

Oh well 

 

Quitting F1 in shameful failure did not hurt BMW's "ultimate driving machine" pedigree even one tiny little bit, so it may well be the right thing for Renault to do actually...

 

People still rave about and still crave BMWs.

[totgate]

Let get all manufacturers out of F1. It's their fault that F1  has evolved into this dreadful formula we have now. To hell with all of them....

[SealTheDiffuser]

Bye bye!

 

So 2017 epic Merc vs Ferrari Series.

[TheRacingElf]

So first they forced F1 to go the V6 turbo route because otherwise they threatened to pull out and now they suck they still pull out? Thanks Renault..

[CurbPainter]

Bye bye!

 

So 2017 epic Merc vs Ferrari Series.

 

- Ferrari engines not being so much worse anymore as the Mercedes engines

 

- Chassis wise there's also not much to gain anymore with the knowledge designers have in most teams

 

F1 has the potential to become more like the junior series in which the drivers can make the difference again in the not so near future.

[Anja]

If that means they will start up a WEC program, LET THEM GET OUT ASAP !!!!!!

 

New participant in WEC to look forward to and F1 collapsing around Ecclestone even more, sounds too good to be true.

 

 

Henri

 

They plan to bring back the Alpine name in street car market next year, would make sense to launch some works racing program alongside it.

[uffen]

it is an endless cycle. Mercedes, Renault, Honda, they've all come and gone, some more often than others. Ferrari is the only stalwart. However, Ferrari is now FIAT, so you never know what levers will be pulled and when.

[D28]

Let get all manufacturers out of F1. It's their fault that F1  has evolved into this dreadful formula we have now. To hell with all of them....

This story highlights the folly of allowing manufacturers to dictate the engine formula. Whether true or not, one of the auto makers is bound to leave F1 soon, either because like M-B they have won everything, or like Honda achieved very little. The formula should be set by the F1 technical people and the auto makers can either race or sit on the sidelines.  

[Christbiscuit]

- Ferrari engines not being so much worse anymore as the Mercedes engines

 

- Chassis wise there's also not much to gain anymore with the knowledge designers have in most teams

 

Have we been watching the same sport? Just how many races have been won by Mercedes engined cars in the last couple of years which weren't in Mercedes chassis?

[Jon83]

So first they forced F1 to go the V6 turbo route because otherwise they threatened to pull out and now they suck they still pull out? Thanks Renault..

 

This.

 

In any other world, you couldn't really make it up. In F1 though, absolute normality.
 

[KingTiger]

I think F1 will fix this mess in the coming years.

This story highlights the folly of allowing manufacturers to dictate the engine formula. Whether true or not, one of the auto makers is bound to leave F1 soon, either because like M-B they have won everything, or like Honda achieved very little. The formula should be set by the F1 technical people and the auto makers can either race or sit on the sidelines.

FIA wanted to go for green engines as well. The manufacturers only set the details of the engines.

[D28]

I think F1 will fix this mess in the coming years.


FIA wanted to go for green engines as well. The manufacturers only set the details of the engines.

Thanks. Then is it the FIA that actually set the Formula specifications?  The engine specs would be in consultation with the manufacturers, all I am saying is that they had too much influence on this Formula.

[KingTiger]

Thanks. Then is it the FIA that actually set the Formula specifications? The engine specs would be in consultation with the manufacturers, all I am saying is that they had too much influence on this Formula.

They did have an influence, but even if they didn't, people who think we'd be seeing high revving, fireball spitting, gas guzzling V10's are only fooling themselves.

[FerrariV12]

They plan to bring back the Alpine name in street car market next year, would make sense to launch some works racing program alongside it.

 

Alpine do have a presence in LMP2, although right now it's nothing more than a rebadged ORECA-Nissan.

 

Speaking of Nissan, aren't they and Renault under the same group? I would say that'd kill the idea of a Renault LMP1 program, although VAG are letting Audi and Porsche go at it so who knows.

[CurbPainter]

Have we been watching the same sport? Just how many races have been won by Mercedes engined cars in the last couple of years which weren't in Mercedes chassis?

 

The Mercedes engine was much better the last few years, but the Ferrari engine now is very close, only Mercedes had some reserve in the bag which you saw in Qualifying only up until Canada, in which they have made the engine more reliable so it can now also do it the whole race, but Ferrari isn't slouching either...there may still be some advantage in the future, but I don't think it will be that big anymore.

 

Ferrari still has some work to do with improving the chassis also.

 

What you saw with Mercedes the last couple of years was a combination of a good chassis and a good engine, and Ferrari closing the gap with their engines now, it will be time for them to improve their chassis also even more.

 

Chassis wise, most designers can make cars which are not that much slower as the others cars nowadays, and only pouring in lots of money make them being able to be a bit faster. Mercedes have the best chassis right now, but the Williams, RB, Ferrari (and maybe even the TR) chassis are about the same, and if a team wants to improve to the Mercedes level of chassis, they will have to spend a lot.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Dieters article on AS+ basically stating to be ready for Renault to pack its bags and leave at the end of 2015.   

Facts are against Renault leaving Formula1 and I give you my reasons:

 

1. Renault was one of the manufacturers that supported the move to V6 Hybrid powerunits and they along with Mercedes even threatened to leave the sport just to make that move to happen.

2. Hybrid technology is the most related technology to the car manufacturers.

3. Renault have thrown resources and money to make their power unit competitive.

4. Engine guru Mario Illien working on Renault power unit.

5. Leaving Formula 1 will be very bad for Renault's reputation.

[Atreiu]

Sorry to see them go, but just go. Threats are usless and just hurt their credibility.

[Gyno]

Facts are against Renault leaving Formula1 and I give you my reasons:

 

1. Renault was one of the manufacturers that supported the move to V6 Hybrid powerunits and they along with Mercedes even threatened to leave the sport just to make that move to happen.

2. Hybrid technology is the most related technology to the car manufacturers.

3. Renault have thrown resources and money to make their power unit competitive.

4. Engine guru Mario Illien working on Renault power unit.

5. Leaving Formula 1 will be very bad for Renault's reputation.

 

Those things have NOTHING to do with Renault Staying or leaving.

Also it wont hurt their reputation one bit if the leave.

It might actually improve it.

[SophieB]

Again, as noted, the article says the risk is of them leaving at the end of 2016, not 15. 

 

http://plus.autospor...0231.1428768826

(Subs or £)

[LuckyStrike1]

For me the most logical, and best, choice for Renault right now would be to leave F1. They've dug themselves into a hole and the relationship with Red Bull seems to be at an all time low and I don't see there is much for Renault to gain by staying but a lot to lose by staying. I'm surprised they haven't made the decision yet. 

 

It would also be bad for F1 which I ironically think is just what F1 needs. 

[Guizotia]

I think this is just political grandstanding. Red Bull want to pressure the FIA to "do something"

[R Soul]

Facts are against Renault leaving Formula1 and I give you my reasons:

I can debunk them all.
 

1. Renault was one of the manufacturers that supported the move to V6 Hybrid powerunits and they along with Mercedes even threatened to leave the sport just to make that move to happen.

Their engine is **** and costs a lot of money.
 

2. Hybrid technology is the most related technology to the car manufacturers.

But their engine is ****.
 

3. Renault have thrown resources and money to make their power unit competitive.

It hasn't worked. The engine is still ****.
 

4. Engine guru Mario Illien working on Renault power unit.

He's either doing a bad job or he doesn't have good staff, because the engine is ****.
 

5. Leaving Formula 1 will be very bad for Renault's reputation.

Staying in F1 will be even worse because their engine is ****.

Edited by R Soul, 17 June 2015 - 15:23.

[Christbiscuit]

The Mercedes engine was much better the last few years, but the Ferrari engine now is very close, only Mercedes had some reserve in the bag which you saw in Qualifying only up until Canada, in which they have made the engine more reliable so it can now also do it the whole race, but Ferrari isn't slouching either...there may still be some advantage in the future, but I don't think it will be that big anymore.

 

Ferrari still has some work to do with improving the chassis also.

 

What you saw with Mercedes the last couple of years was a combination of a good chassis and a good engine, and Ferrari closing the gap with their engines now, it will be time for them to improve their chassis also even more.

 

Chassis wise, most designers can make cars which are not that much slower as the others cars nowadays, and only pouring in lots of money make them being able to be a bit faster. Mercedes have the best chassis right now, but the Williams, RB, Ferrari (and maybe even the TR) chassis are about the same, and if a team wants to improve to the Mercedes level of chassis, they will have to spend a lot.

 

So the chassis can still make a huge difference, than? I'm glad you agree.

Edited by Christbiscuit, 17 June 2015 - 15:23.

[Fastcake]

Are they considering an exit plan at the same time as a works team? Must be an interesting debate going on inside Renault.

[CurbPainter]

So the chassis can still make a huge difference, than? I'm glad you agree.

 

Not that big of a difference anymore.

 

Look at TR and RB...

 

I searched for their respective budgets, and I found of a few years ago, RB $425 mil. and TR $80 mil. a year.

 

I'm guessing they need $30/40 mil. a year for their standard costs, which leaves TR only with $40/50 mil. a year for car development and RB with 6-8 times as much money for it...and if you look at the gap between them, there isn't that much to be able to distract out of the chassis anymore...they are simply hurting badly by the lack of engine power.

 

There is still too gain some in the chassis department, but it's not that big as it used to be and the lesser teams are able to make cars which aren't so much worse with a lot less budget.

 

Ferrari is doing a great job with the engine to make the gap as small as possible right now and I think the gap will be even smaller by next year...and with difficulties to extracts that much more out of the chassis nowadays...the other factor, which are the drivers, can play a bigger role in the not so near future again.

Edited by CurbPainter, 17 June 2015 - 15:41.

[Red17]

If that means they will start up a WEC program, LET THEM GET OUT ASAP !!!!!!

 

New participant in WEC to look forward to and F1 collapsing around Ecclestone even more, sounds too good to be true.

 

 

Henri

 

Nissan is already deep in their necks in WEC, I bet a lot of that development money comes from Lyon as well, not just Japan.

 

But if Renault-Nissan is crazy enough to mount a full scale assault on VAG using the Alpine brand be my guest, Lemans would be a killer if Nissan sorts out the red turtle.

[Exb]

Whats to stop Renault 'leaving' and then coming back - with a totally new engine that they are developing without restrictions??? maybe they can have already started developing this new version????

[RacingDuck]

Again, as noted, the article says the risk is of them leaving at the end of 2016, not 15.

http://plus.autospor...0231.1428768826
(Subs or £)

Yeah, but we're all ready for Renault to leave now

(Only a joke but I do agree with others that the engine is shite)

[David1976]

I think Renault will bail out.  Gut feeling.

 

F1 has become ludicrously expensive at the expense of entertainment.  I don't think it really provides good value/risk like it once did 10-15 years ago so if Renault need to spend mega bucks to catch up I wouldn't be surprised if they cut their losses.  

[LuckyStrike1]

Are they considering an exit plan at the same time as a works team? Must be an interesting debate going on inside Renault.

 

 

On the contrary, straightforward and logical. 

 

We are at a crossroads of decision with our F1-programme and we have a decision to make. These are the options we are currently evaluating: 

 

- Buy an existing team and come back as a team owner manfacturer as we were pre 2010

- Withdraw from F1 completely by the end of 2016 and start a phase out plan for 2016. 

- Continue as today as an engine manufacturer. Invest heavily within the rules given to us to improve our engine and work to bring in at least one more team in addition to our two current teams. 

[Fastcake]

On the contrary, straightforward and logical. 

 

We are at a crossroads of decision with our F1-programme and we have a decision to make. These are the options we are currently evaluating: 

 

- Buy an existing team and come back as a team owner manfacturer as we were pre 2010

- Withdraw from F1 completely by the end of 2016 and start a phase out plan for 2016. 

- Continue as today as an engine manufacturer. Invest heavily within the rules given to us to improve our engine and work to bring in at least one more team in addition to our two current teams. 

 

I didn't say it wasn't logical, I just said it was interesting.

[superden]

Manufacturer leaves F1. This is news?

[CurbPainter]

On the contrary, straightforward and logical. 

 

We are at a crossroads of decision with our F1-programme and we have a decision to make. These are the options we are currently evaluating: 

 

- Buy an existing team and come back as a team owner manfacturer as we were pre 2010

- Withdraw from F1 completely by the end of 2016 and start a phase out plan for 2016. 

- Continue as today as an engine manufacturer. Invest heavily within the rules given to us to improve our engine and work to bring in at least one more team in addition to our two current teams. 

 

A lot will depend on if the new stuff which is now on the dyno are going to make a big difference...without it, the costs/benefits for the future (in being able to catch up) might be too high to continue with it.

[Rinehart]

I'm certain the rulebook will be changed to find away to establish more or less engine parity between the 4 existing manufacturers and anyone else who wants to join in. 

 

What on earth would be the point in driving away one or two existing manufacturers and giving absolutely no incentive to any new one to consider joining.

 

Mercedes have on the one hand the agenda to protect their dominant position, but then dominating lesser competition is not worth the paper the ad is printed on...

 

Engines are like tyres as far as racing goes, unless everyone's are equal, racing is a waste of time. 

[ardbeg]

I think this is just political grandstanding. Red Bull want to pressure the FIA to "do something"

My theory is that Horner want to pressure Renault to leave. I think it might prove troublesome for them to get another engine even if they break the contract with Renault. If Renault leaves, Merc or Ferrari will have to do business with them.

[LuckyStrike1]

I didn't say it wasn't logical, I just said it was interesting.

 

 

My reading and understanding skills failed me for a moment there. Of course. 

 

I'll try and save this by saying they will be discussing it in French. And how interesting can discussions in French by French be? 

 

Not sure I made it any better. 

[Gyno]

My theory is that Horner want to pressure Renault to leave. I think it might prove troublesome for them to get another engine even if they break the contract with Renault. If Renault leaves, Merc or Ferrari will have to do business with them.

Unless RBR also leaves.

 

Would be nice seeing them in WEC running LMP1 cars.

[Jordan44]

Not that big of a difference anymore.

 

Look at TR and RB...

 

I searched for their respective budgets, and I found of a few years ago, RB $425 mil. and TR $80 mil. a year.

 

I'm guessing they need $30/40 mil. a year for their standard costs, which leaves TR only with $40/50 mil. a year for car development and RB with 6-8 times as much money for it...and if you look at the gap between them, there isn't that much to be able to distract out of the chassis anymore...they are simply hurting badly by the lack of engine power.

 

There is still too gain some in the chassis department, but it's not that big as it used to be and the lesser teams are able to make cars which aren't so much worse with a lot less budget.

 

Ferrari is doing a great job with the engine to make the gap as small as possible right now and I think the gap will be even smaller by next year...and with difficulties to extracts that much more out of the chassis nowadays...the other factor, which are the drivers, can play a bigger role in the not so near future again.

 

Rubbish. Just look at last year. Despite the worst engine on the grid, Red Bull managed to maintain second by having a chassis on par with Mercedes. This year, the Red Bull chassis is no better than Toro Rosso's chassis and this is why they are struggling. Red Bull are not the team they used to be. They've lost Newey's commitment, they've lost Peter Prodromou and this year they've gone backwards. There's still plenty to gain from the chassis as Mercedes demonstrated in the off-season.

 

You can blame the engines all you like, the concept is fine. The only reason we're in a mess is because the development restrictions in the first season were unnecessary. If Renault leave, that's good for us, because engine parity will come sooner. Ferrari are not far away from Mercedes at all. Once it's a level playing field with the engines and people still question why Mercedes are dominating I'll be laughing. Blaming the engines is just something the fans like to do in order to ignore the bigger picture. There are far bigger issues out there.

Edited by J0rd4n, 17 June 2015 - 18:31.

[BenF12012]

Red Bull to take Ferrari engines

 

Sport Bild claims that, fed up with works partner Renault’s poor reliability and performance in the new ‘power unit’ era, Red Bull has been in talks with its arch-rival Ferrari.

 

Eng version - http://www.thisisf1....-engine-switch/

 

what for Renault future plan?

 

I think Renault want stay in F1 as factory team...

[CurbPainter]

Rubbish. Just look at last year. Despite the worst engine on the grid, Red Bull managed to maintain second by having a chassis on par with Mercedes. This year, the Red Bull chassis is no better than Toro Rosso's chassis and this is why they are struggling. Red Bull are not the team they used to be. They've lost Newey's commitment, they've lost Peter Prodromou and this year they've gone backwards. There's still plenty to gain from the chassis as Mercedes demonstrated in the off-season.

 

You can blame the engines all you like, the concept is fine. The only reason we're in a mess is because the development restrictions in the first season were unnecessary. If Renault leave, that's good for us, because engine parity will come sooner. Ferrari are not far away from Mercedes at all. Once it's a level playing field with the engines and people still question why Mercedes are dominating I'll be laughing. Blaming the engines is just something the fans like to do in order to ignore the bigger picture. There are far bigger issues out there.

 

TR has simply build a good car this year + Renault has improved less as Ferrari and Mercedes...did you by any change watch the GP of Monaco ?...the RB11 isn't the best car they have build, but it's also not such a bad car.

[FullThrottleF1]

If Red Bull get Ferrari engines, they'll never win another championship.

[Gilles4Ever]

If Red Bull get Ferrari engines, they'll never win another championship.

Need to be a "works" team to be WDC or WCC these days as with McLaren dropping Merc for Honda.

[Talisman]

On the contrary, straightforward and logical. 

 

We are at a crossroads of decision with our F1-programme and we have a decision to make. These are the options we are currently evaluating: 

 

- Buy an existing team and come back as a team owner manfacturer as we were pre 2010

- Withdraw from F1 completely by the end of 2016 and start a phase out plan for 2016. 

- Continue as today as an engine manufacturer. Invest heavily within the rules given to us to improve our engine and work to bring in at least one more team in addition to our two current teams. 

 

The problem with Renault is a lack of leadership from the top, and I mean CEO/Board level.

 

The board took the engine development freeze for V8s literally and got caught napping by Mercedes and Ferrari.  They took that opportunity to cut down their engine R/D team size to cut costs.

 

They managed to get the FIA to go for hybrids, great.  Problem was Renault management didn't bother to beef up the R/D team which was still just about the required size to develop the V8 for reliability purposes.  Result?  One of they worst V6Ts and public humiliation.  Had they put in a new business plan to deal with the new format including a bigger budget they'd have been fine but they didn't.  They were incredibly lucky Ferrari screwed up too last year otherwise they'd have looked like proper idiots.  Sorry, they did anyway.

 

Now for 2015 we have extensive engine developments that haven't worked, an engine which is soon probably going to be matched by the Honda which has been developed in less than half the time and a works team that vents its frustrations publicly.

Renault management's response?  We're considering our options....

 

The fact is that Renault's options are as you say but two of those options require serious investment and I see no sign of that on the horizon.  They are trying to make a serious decision with no leadership from the top.  They can't take over a team without serious commitment and I don't see any signs of that managerial support.

 

I foresee a few more months of dithering and a vague commitment to putting more into developing a better engine.  Its the course of action that requires the least commitment and managerial input.

[ninetyzero]

I fail to see why Renault wouldn't quit, When Red Bull win Renault get no credit but when RB don't win Spice Boy and Helmet do nothing but publicly criticise and belittle Renault, even though the chassis is clearly flawed. At least when Renault were winning with Williams and Benetton is the 90's they actually got some recognition for it.

 

If I was in charge of a major car manufacturer I'd tell Bernie to stick it and go race in WEC instead. It's a championship on the up (until it threatens F1 too much and the FIA sabotage it like they did with the old World Sportscar Championship anyway). Manufacturers are keen to be involved in WEC at the moment but F1 is struggling to hold on to the ones it has, never mind gaining more. After seeing Honda produce an engine that makes the '91 Porsche V12 look successful how many manufacturers will be queueing up to race in F1? None. The pinnacle of motorsport is rapidly becoming a joke.

[northanmonkee2]

Red bull to use Ferrari power unit
http://www.foxsports...l-report-061715

[chhatra]

Still would not help them. They will never be able to integrate it as well as Ferrari, they would not get all the info they need and the spec wouldn't be the same either. Same situation McLaren had with Mercedes last year.

Ron may have his moments but he is bang on the money when he says customer teams will not win. Not unless the engine formula drastically changes.