87 replies to this topic

[Nonesuch]

If Red Bull get Ferrari engines, they'll never win another championship.

 

Amusingly Red Bull's B-team is the only team to have ever won a race with a customer Ferrari engine.

 

Not that I disagree with the main point; especially when development of the engine is still the order of the day winter, the customer teams are going to have a harder time being competitive than the constructor itself.

[hittheapex]

So first they forced F1 to go the V6 turbo route because otherwise they threatened to pull out and now they suck they still pull out? Thanks Renault..

 

 

This.

 

In any other world, you couldn't really make it up. In F1 though, absolute normality.
 

To be fair, it gets to a point where it's even more stupid to carry on. With limited development permitted, they are probably consigned to a third straight year of mediocrity. It's nobody's fault but their own, but they are wise to cut their losses ASAP and try again another time in my opinion. They can kick and scream and try and get the rules changed, as is the norm in F1 whenever others are doing a better job, but that isn't going to come soon enough for them.

[DILLIGAF]

I fail to see why Renault wouldn't quit, When Red Bull win Renault get no credit but when RB don't win Spice Boy and Helmet do nothing but publicly criticise and belittle Renault, even though the chassis is clearly flawed. At least when Renault were winning with Williams and Benetton is the 90's they actually got some recognition for it.

Rubbish!! When Red Bull were winning championships they gave Renault plenty of credit. Here's what Horner had to say after the 2011 season:

"We're obviously thrilled to announce this significantly enhanced agreement with the Renault-Nissan Alliance, who we have enjoyed a close working relationship with since 2007. Renault Sport F1 has always been very straight-forward to work with, which has been a contributing factor to the on-going success of the Red Bull Racing- Renault partnership. Together we have so far achieved 22 wins, 32 pole positions, 1130.5 World Championship points and two World Championships. As the relationship moves forward, we intend to build on this and look forward to working with the Renault-Nissan Alliance during future Formula One World Championship campaigns."

Source: http://www.grandprix...ns/ns23560.html

Or this in 2013:

"Renault has got a great track record and we have achieved some phenomenal things with them. They perhaps don't have the budget of some of the others but they have been prudent in how they spend it. We are pretty confident that we will have a competitive power plant. There's an awful lot a hearsay that goes round at this time of year but as always, what is important is what happens when the flag drops in Melbourne.
"The status we have as their works partner means that the maximum effort is going into optimisation of the engine and the Red Bull car. It's going to be a big element of grand prix racing next year.
"Renault has worked very closely with us on the installation of the engine and we have concentrated where they can. They [have their] specialist area, our area is the chassis, so it has been a collective effort over the last couple of years to integrate the engine."

Source: http://www.autosport...t.php/id/111882


This idea that RBR never gave Renault any recognition is and always will be a myth.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 18 June 2015 - 00:44.

[warp]

Manufacturer leaves F1. This is news?

 

Hardly, unless the name is Ferrari.

[f1RacingForever]

end of 2016 - says clearly at the end: Indeed, if usually reliable sources are to be believed, the relationship has soured to such an extent that RBR has commenced negotiations for Ferrari engines for when its contract expires at the end of 2016.

so much for their threats to leave the sport.

[Rinehart]

My theory is that Horner want to pressure Renault to leave. I think it might prove troublesome for them to get another engine even if they break the contract with Renault. If Renault leaves, Merc or Ferrari will have to do business with them.

RBR don't want to be a non-works customer to one of their main competitors - see McLaren (Mercedes) for details...

[FullThrottleF1]

It seems like RBR annoyed Renault because they anticipated that they could get Audi to join, they didn't, now they are stuck.

[LuckyStrike1]

so much for their threats to leave the sport.

 

 

Red Bull has a long term contract, details unknown but I'm sure Dieter Rencken will or have provided some details, with FOM to stay in the sport. In many ways nd not just because of the contract it's probably very expensive and perhaps almost impossible for them to withdraw by the end of next season even if Renault would leave. But it could certainly be the start of a phase-out plan of their involvment in F1. 

 

Anyway, Red Bulls threats should be seen as a threat of increased possibility to not be counted on staying in the sport forever rather than a threat to leave now. That's how these things work, it's a political game after all. 

 

But would Renault leave F1, then the possibility of Red Bulls four cars leaving the F1 grid is definetely more real than it has ever been before. 

[superden]

Red Bulls threats.

Frankly, I'm sick of hearing about Red Bull's 'threats' to leave.

[MustangSally]

Red Bull has a long term contract, details unknown but I'm sure Dieter Rencken will or have provided some details, with FOM to stay in the sport. In many ways nd not just because of the contract it's probably very expensive and perhaps almost impossible for them to withdraw by the end of next season even if Renault would leave. But it could certainly be the start of a phase-out plan of their involvment in F1. 

 

Anyway, Red Bulls threats should be seen as a threat of increased possibility to not be counted on staying in the sport forever rather than a threat to leave now. That's how these things work, it's a political game after all. 

 

But would Renault leave F1, then the possibility of Red Bulls four cars leaving the F1 grid is definetely more real than it has ever been before. 

 

There is an interview with Mateschitz in Speedweek, link here

 

He specifically answers that question, that the contract until 2018 could be renegotiated. 

 

One assumes the same of the contract between Renault and RBR for next year. 'The marriage has irretrievably broken down' - as  divorce lawyers might say. The partnership between Williams and BMW ended a year early.

 

Personally I can't see much of a business case for Renault to stay in. It's obvious no-one is queuing up to buy their engines and customer dissatisfaction fills the media. Like BMW, they have diverse investments in motorsport and many of these achieve rather more success and goodwill.

[Fatgadget]

I'm certain the rulebook will be changed to find away to establish more or less engine parity between the 4 existing manufacturers and anyone else who wants to join in. 

 

What on earth would be the point in driving away one or two existing manufacturers and giving absolutely no incentive to any new one to consider joining.

 

Mercedes have on the one hand the agenda to protect their dominant position, but then dominating lesser competition is not worth the paper the ad is printed on...

 

Engines are like tyres as far as racing goes, unless everyone's are equal, racing is a waste of time. 

Might as well go to a spec engine route then.

What's the point an engine manufacture spending gazillions  entering F1 if they can't showcase their superiority in coming up with a demon engine?

[MustangSally]

- Ferrari engines not being so much worse anymore as the Mercedes engines

 

- Chassis wise there's also not much to gain anymore with the knowledge designers have in most teams

 

F1 has the potential to become more like the junior series in which the drivers can make the difference again in the not so near future.

 

Is there also an upside that engine costs could also become cheaper?

 

Let's speculate that Renault pull out and Ferrari supply RBR, STR, Sauber, Haas and Manor . . . that's not a bad business. We could get back down to 15 - 20m - or half of what a Renault supply cost. 

[ardbeg]

RBR don't want to be a non-works customer to one of their main competitors - see McLaren (Mercedes) for details...

No, but they don't want another season with a hopeless engine either.

[maverick69]

FWIW: Cosworth have just stared off on a rather sizable recruitment drive - and if the bloke down the pub is not winding me up (he very likely was), they've been told to dust off a load of engines "just in case". Apparently a bunch of money "just turned up!?". God knows where from. Maybe it was from the recent euromillions winner.

Edited by maverick69, 18 June 2015 - 10:58.

[trogggy]

Might as well go to a spec engine route then.

What's the point an engine manufacture spending gazillions  entering F1 if they can't showcase their superiority in coming up with a demon engine?

I agree.

But what's the future of F1 if only 1 team can win 'cos an engine manufacturer did a cracking job?

 

Maybe engine manufacturers spending gazillions isn't good for F1.

[ardbeg]

FWIW: Cosworth have just stared off on a rather sizable recruitment drive - and if the bloke down the pub is not winding me up (very likely), they've been told to dust off a load of engines "just in case". Apparently a bunch of money "just turned up!?". God knows where from.

That does not sound likely at all. They could not match the others with the "simple" engine and who would, which team I mean, would gamble on them being better than Renault and Honda in creating a modern PU? Maybe they prepare for new regulations without ERS. 

[trogggy]

That does not sound likely at all. They could not match the others with the "simple" engine and who would, which team I mean, would gamble on them being better than Renault and Honda in creating a modern PU? Maybe they prepare for new regulations without ERS. 

McLaren?

[maverick69]

That does not sound likely at all. They could not match the others with the "simple" engine and who would, which team I mean, would gamble on them being better than Renault and Honda in creating a modern PU? Maybe they prepare for new regulations without ERS. 

 

Of course there would be a regulation change, so an XD would match the current lot, for example....... and it runs on bio-fuel...... and there's whole drive-trains available.... etc.

 

What one has to consider, is that we are very close to the conditions of a force majeure.

[Rinehart]

Might as well go to a spec engine route then.

What's the point an engine manufacture spending gazillions  entering F1 if they can't showcase their superiority in coming up with a demon engine?

 You have a very short memory as F1 essentially equalized the engines in the v8 era and that didn't stop Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, Honda, BMW and Toyota from participating. Why would they? Because being competitive in F1 is going to sell just as many cars as dominating will. There is no need to dominate for marketing purposes. Mercedes ads don't try to tell you their engines are superior to Renaults in their ads. F1 activity is about driving brand aspiration. 

 

Logically if F1 was allowed to be entirely meritocratic it would be the dullest sport in the universe as one team would establish such fundamental advantages and be run away dominant for about 50 years. As an innovation driven sport it has to have its wings clipped constantly otherwise it would lose all sporting sense. Its happened 100's of times in the past. To defend Mercedes now would be unfair on all the other advantages that have been lost over the years through rule change...

[MustangSally]

. . .  if the bloke down the pub is not winding me up (he very likely was), they've been told to dust off a load of engines "just in case". 

 

The whole 3-car, or maybe customer car, or franchise car debate has gone quiet for a while.

 

It's quite clear that Bernie's idea (shot down by the Strategy Group) was for a two-tier F1 and he specifically mentioned Renault V8s at one time. But now Renault may be pulling out. 

 

Make of that what you will.

[V8 Fireworks]

FWIW: Cosworth have just stared off on a rather sizable recruitment drive - and if the bloke down the pub is not winding me up (he very likely was), they've been told to dust off a load of engines "just in case". Apparently a bunch of money "just turned up!?". God knows where from. Maybe it was from the recent euromillions winner.

 

I dunno.   You can buy a Cosworth engine for your Impreza.  http://www.cosworth....ock-assemblies/

 

Maybe Imprezas are becoming more popular?

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 18 June 2015 - 15:24.

[kevinracefan]

Let get all manufacturers out of F1. It's their fault that F1  has evolved into this dreadful formula we have now. To hell with all of them....

that's hilarious...

OK...

Good bye, TV
hello SCCA hobby cars...

[kevinracefan]

I think this is just political grandstanding. Red Bull want to pressure the FIA to "do something"

at this point, Red Bull probably don't give a ratsass about what they do...

Ferrari is willing to give them about 96% of their top power, (1 iteration behind their best current lump)which is probably 15% more than Renault is giving them now..

RBR can beat Ferrari with a 4% handicap in power, I M O...

[kevinracefan]

If Red Bull get Ferrari engines, they'll never win another championship.

B S Flag

[kevinracefan]

I fail to see why Renault wouldn't quit, When Red Bull win Renault get no credit but when RB don't win Spice Boy and Helmet do nothing but publicly criticise and belittle Renault

B S Flag..

Renault got recognition.. even if it were through Infinity, the mother ship got credit... If they wanted to see MORE credit, they needed to initiate that PR machine, not Red Bull's obligation..

evidently, your naming them spiceboy and Helmet show a bias that clouds your memory..

[PassWind]

When the mighty McLaren rock up to a race to conduct a test there is something wrong with the formula, doesn't take a ****ing rocket surgeon to work it out, blatant misuse of the idiom was deliberate for all you brain scientists out there.... 

[kevinracefan]

Still would not help them. They will never be able to integrate it as well as Ferrari, they would not get all the info they need and the spec wouldn't be the same either. Same situation McLaren had with Mercedes last year.

Ron may have his moments but he is bang on the money when he says customer teams will not win. Not unless the engine formula drastically changes.

If RBR had a Ferrari engine today, they would beat Ferrari today.. the last several years the RBR chassis was better by enough to overcome the handicap of customer engines VS works engines, I M O...

I agree being stuck with a customer engine is not ideal, but the situation is not absolute.

[Fatgadget]

B S Flag

Why is that BS? I think its no accident the current front runners have one fundamental thing in common.

Clear to see without the engine and chassis being integrated from the get go,no chance.

[MustangSally]

Just to recap on the state of play.

 

Renault has been considering setting up its own team. As far as we know, there is no deal with Lotus and an approach was rejected in Spain - either because Genii did not want to sell or, as stated by Lotus CEO, the team was rather happy with Mercedes power. There are no more talks with STR and the team is likely moving to Ferrari power - negotiations already began in Canada.

 

That leaves Force India and Manor as options. Bob Bell, recently appointed at Manor, has strong links to Renault. But besides this, neither team has much to offer. The rumour of Manor as a McLaren B team has more traction.

 

This week Renault receives yet more verbal abuse from RBR, perhaps the most disrespectful to date. The company has been in F1 since 1977 and hugely successful. It is confirmed that Renault and RBR will part company in any case by end 2016, maybe sooner.

 

At this point in time, a withdrawal would seem the most likely option.

[Talisman]

Just to recap on the state of play.

 

Renault has been considering setting up its own team. As far as we know, there is no deal with Lotus and an approach was rejected in Spain - either because Genii did not want to sell or, as stated by Lotus CEO, the team was rather happy with Mercedes power. There are no more talks with STR and the team is likely moving to Ferrari power - negotiations already began in Canada.

 

That leaves Force India and Manor as options. Bob Bell, recently appointed at Manor, has strong links to Renault. But besides this, neither team has much to offer. The rumour of Manor as a McLaren B team has more traction.

 

This week Renault receives yet more verbal abuse from RBR, perhaps the most disrespectful to date. The company has been in F1 since 1977 and hugely successful. It is confirmed that Renault and RBR will part company in any case by end 2016, maybe sooner.

 

At this point in time, a withdrawal would seem the most likely option.

 

Which would mean a suboptimal solution for RBR.  A works engine deal with Renault with a significant chance that they would narrow the performance gap would be better IMO than a customer Ferrari deal.

[superden]

Suboptimal solution.

For sure Ron, go for the maximum.

[balmybaldwin]

It would be another mortal blow to f1 if Renault leave. They have been a constant presence in f1 for longer than I've been alive, and have a wonderful part in my Motorsport memories more so than Ferrari for example (because Ferrari don't compete in many different series (f1 and GT cars in my lifetime)

It's a disgrace the way DM and redbull in particular have treated Renault. Yes they got some credit for the 4ccs and fans can point at nice sterile press releases, but there is no doubt the glory went to redbull and its aero department.

The way they have been treated in adversity (in public no less) is shocking. Given the torro rosso team seem to be doing almost as good a job as the much better funded rbr squad clearly shows the chassis is not what it should be, and their attitude is in stark contrast to McLaren.

If I had the resources to produce a top notch engine right now, the one team I wouldn't want to sell it to would be redbull - who wants to work with a company like that?

[lustigson]

Red Bull to take Ferrari engines

 

Sport Bild claims that, fed up with works partner Renault’s poor reliability and performance in the new ‘power unit’ era, Red Bull has been in talks with its arch-rival Ferrari.

 

I wouldn't state that Ferrari is Red Bull's arch-rival. If there is an arch-rivalry in F1 between constructors, it's between Ferrari and McLaren.

 

On topic: I wouldn't be surprised if there's a major shift in Renault's F1 operations. And like Dieter Rencken wrote, it could be team ownership again, or complete withdrawal. The timing for either is right, looking at Renault's past:

• Phase I: factory team: 1977-1985 (9 seasons)
• Phase II: engine supply to Lotus, Ligier, Tyrrell: 1983-1986 (4 seasons)
• Phase III: engine supply to Williams, Ligier, Benetton: 1989-1997 (9 seasons)
• Phase IV: factory team (formerly Benetton): 2001-2010 (9 seasons — see the pattern?)
• Phase V: engine supply to Red Bull, Lotus, Williams, Caterham, STR: 2007-2015 (9 seasons)
• Phase VI: factory team (? 2016-

2016 should probably be included in Phase V, making it a 10-year period, but you get my point.

[MustangSally]

 I wouldn't be surprised if there's a major shift in Renault's F1 operations. And like Dieter Rencken wrote, it could be team ownership again, or complete withdrawal. The timing for either is right, looking at Renault's past:

 

 

Fair point. There are always moments to take time out and regroup, as Renault has done in the past.

 

At this point in time, there is no obvious partner for Renault and it doesn't want the same relationship again as with RBR. Lotus has declined a 48% share sale. Former partner Williams, we also know, is not for sale, even in the unlikely event it could be tempted away from Mercedes.

 

Renault Sport can go away, restructure and plan its own team for a return when conditions are more favourable.

 

At this time, also, few manufacturers are lining up to join F1 . . . the odds against being competitive are quite high. One wonders how the lone Honda will fare if February's cut-off date is implemented. 

[bushgold]

I'd love to see the return of the Yellow-White-Black liveried Renaults. Represents a marvelous era of F1. 

[Talisman]

Fair point. There are always moments to take time out and regroup, as Renault has done in the past.

 

At this point in time, there is no obvious partner for Renault and it doesn't want the same relationship again as with RBR. Lotus has declined a 48% share sale. Former partner Williams, we also know, is not for sale, even in the unlikely event it could be tempted away from Mercedes.

 

Renault Sport can go away, restructure and plan its own team for a return when conditions are more favourable.

 

At this time, also, few manufacturers are lining up to join F1 . . . the odds against being competitive are quite high. One wonders how the lone Honda will fare if February's cut-off date is implemented. 

 

There is another factor for Renault to become a team owner again.  F1 is no longer as adversarial as it used to be with Mosley on one side and manufacturers on the other.  Having Todt doing nothing is probably going to be viewed on favourably as F1 is politically fairly stable at the moment.

[CurbPainter]

While Dietrich Mateschitz has denied talks with Ferrari, Dr Helmut Marko has confirmed there have been talks and Ferrari has given RB an offer. However Christian Horner says, the nr. 1 focus of the Red Bull team still lays by solving the problems with Renault.

 

https://translate.go...evering-motoren

[LORDBYRON]

FWIW: Cosworth have just stared off on a rather sizable recruitment drive - and if the bloke down the pub is not winding me up (he very likely was), they've been told to dust off a load of engines "just in case". Apparently a bunch of money "just turned up!?". God knows where from. Maybe it was from the recent euromillions winner.

Wrong they don't have any engines sitting about. They do have a current spec engine built ready to go how good its been or if its been worked on by them in the two years is any ones guess 

Edited by LORDBYRON, 19 June 2015 - 21:34.