337 replies to this topic

[Guizotia]

The difference is that once RBR had their aero advantage all of the other teams didn't have their aero disadvantages frozen for seasons. There's nothing subtle about the distinction. Also, if a teams' aero solution didn't work, they weren't levied a grid and time penalty at the next race where they had it sorted. The current rules of F1 make Brian France's influence over NASCAR look beneficial.

I take your point.

[BoschKurve]

If Red Bull and all of the teams had their aero frozen before the first race started, the product would have been as bad as it is now.

 

The idea of freezing development is the suggestion of those with myopic viewpoints that don't look at the larger effect.

[P123]

It's not actually frozen though, and the token system was proposed, discussed and agreed on by the manufacturers. The fact Ferrari can make huge gains with only 'spending' a fraction of the token allocation gives lie to the claim that performance is fixed or locked in. Lets not forget that Renault have somehow managed to make their engine worse this season compared to last year.

When was an engine advantage ever worn down within a season? In the years of the high revving BMW V10 with open development at the beginning of the '00s it took Ferrari until mid 2003 to be matching that engine for power. Over two years. Unlimited development and testing. Honda, Merc, Renault never did quite bridge the performance gap. If you open it all up there is the prospect that Mercedes could stretch further ahead.

If you want Mercedes (and Ferrari) to be caught up then it would need to be something like Horner's proposal. How that is achieved and why Mercedes and Ferrari should agree to it is a fairly big sticking point. Mercedes at the moment are too good for F1.

[pdac]

Whether it's lucrative or not means...precisely what?

 

Unless you have money invested with CVC, the lucrativeness of F1 doesn't really much matter.

 

Let's just say for the sake of argument this is an important thing, what good has come out of F1's lucrativeness over the past 2 decades? If one was to draw a road map back to say even the late 1990s, the more money that the series was generating on the commercial side of things, the worse off it became for the long haul. F1's commercial success benefited a select few, and watered down the product as a whole so it ultimately turned into the near-unwatchable mess it's become today.

 

There are an aweful lot of people in F1 who have become very very very rich over the past 2 decades. There is an expectation now that there is money floating about so that the teams can spend ad-lib. The only reason why teams are going bust is because they are trying to keep up with the megabucks that are flying around at other teams when their team doesn't have it.

 

That is what F1 has become and that is what everyone in the F1 circus (including the TV, the media etc.) expects now. Any replacement that couldn't bring that to the party would not progress very far. F1 stands out because it has history and glamour - anything new would not have the history.

[DILLIGAF]

The difference is that once RBR had their aero advantage all of the other teams didn't have their aero disadvantages frozen for seasons. There's nothing subtle about the distinction. Also, if a teams' aero solution didn't work, they weren't levied a grid and time penalty at the next race where they had it sorted. The current rules of F1 make Brian France's influence over NASCAR look beneficial.

Nailed it!

Edited by DILLIGAF, 22 June 2015 - 23:41.

[JonnyJ]

Even as a die hard Lewis "fanboy" I'm all for opening up the engine regs but what happens if they do that and Merc continue to extend their advantage? Then what? Law of diminishing returns i hear but Renault had an opportunity to improve their engine over the winter and they have ended up even further behind Mercedes, what's to say if it was fully opened up that Renault could catch up in any space of time that would please Mr Mateschitz? Aye, maybe in 5/6 years time, all the manufacturers might converge on the same idea but if hes making these noises now after 1 and a bit years of pain, there's no way he's got the patience to wait the time it might take for Renault to get on par with the Merc's. We all know how much time and money Mercedes invested into these PU's, they could quite conceivably have a lot more to bring to the table yet. These PU's are so complex, with so many variables as to what makes them competitive, that it will take much longer than the V8's for an equal design to emerge, it might not even ever happen.

 

Are we all to assume that even if they were given the opportunity to advance, that if they didn't, Mr Mateschitz would just sit back all content at his midfield team because "oh well, we have the opportunity to close it up maybe one day in the distant future". Not having that. This was always going to happen the first time RBR fell from its perch.

 

I still find it rich that RBR are moaning about laws they voted for. The ridiculous penalties, the development regulations, they wanted them, they voted for them and their engine partner threatened to quit if the V6T's weren't implemented. Imagine crying about rules you wanted.

 

Sorry, i hear his moans, i see his points but you wont be getting much sympathy from me.

Edited by JonnyJ, 22 June 2015 - 23:49.

[paulogman]

The difference is that once RBR had their aero advantage all of the other teams didn't have their aero disadvantages frozen for seasons. There's nothing subtle about the distinction. Also, if a teams' aero solution didn't work, they weren't levied a grid and time penalty at the next race where they had it sorted. The current rules of F1 make Brian France's influence over NASCAR look beneficial.

if you lose by 30 seconds or a minute does it matter?
the redbull advantage was so great that it made the other teams also rans.
each team knew coming into the weekend that redbull had the advantage and were able to maintain the advantage.

I don't understand what people think, if power unit development were unfrozen would Mercedes just sit there and wait for the other teams to catch up?
redbull didn't stop developing their car when they were winning, unfreeze the engine development and wave bye bye to the merc teams as they build on their already prodigious advantage over renault.
until the cost of development was so great that no customer team could afford a power unit.









completely off topic, at least with the Mercedes team both drivers are allowed to race and are capable of winning on pace.

Edited by paulogman, 23 June 2015 - 04:42.

[apoka]

if you lose by 30 seconds or a minute does it matter?
the redbull advantage was so great that it made the other teams also rans.
each team knew coming into the weekend that redbull had the advantage and were able to maintain the advantage.

 

Independent of your point, it should be very obvious by now that the Merc advantage is far greater than what RB ever had. In 2010, Vettel had a pace advantage, but really poor reliability which made it interesting. 2012 was generally closer and Hamilton could have won it had they been more reliable. Alonso took the fight until the last race as well. Hell, Webber finished only P6 in the WDC that year. Even in 2011 and 2013, Webber was not P2 in WDC and they had far less 1-2 finishes (only 7 in both years combined, only 10 from 2010 to 2013 - Merc is on 14 already since 2014). Generally, qualifying was often very close with a number of cars getting poles and the RBs were tuned for optimal lap time rather than top speed, so were vulnerable in races. I know some people believe in Hamilton/Alonso (and maybe Button/Rosberg) super hero powers, but no other cars being able to beat them in qualy a single time in 2014 and 2015, no finishes outside the podiums this year, breaking all sorts of long term records etc. is mostly down to the Merc advantage being greater than RB had.

 

Merc have earned their advantage and congratulations to that, but don't pretend the situation at the front is less one sided than during the RB era.

Edited by apoka, 23 June 2015 - 05:46.

[paulogman]

really?
vetted would lap 2 secs faster than any body else at the start of the race and then cruise home because he never had a competitive team mate.
if he actually had to race somebody, then the true pace over a race distance would be just as dominant.

rosberg and Hamilton are pushing each other and are free to race so they are much closer to the potential maximum the car will deliver.
you see that they have to conserve brakes and fuel at some stages of the race because they are pushing.

vettel never had that pressure

Edited by paulogman, 23 June 2015 - 21:05.

[MustangSally]

 Lets not forget that Renault have somehow managed to make their engine worse this season compared to last year.
 

 

Well. absolutely. (How did they manage that??)

 

And there really aren't any proposals that could avoid such a scenario recurring.

[krea]

really?
vetted would lap 2 secs faster than any body else at the start of the race and then cruise home because he never had a competitive team mate.
if he actually had to race somebody, then the true pace over a race distance would be just as dominant.

rosberg and Hamilton are pushing each other and are free to race so they are much closer to the potential maximum the car will deliver.
you see that they have to conserve brakes and fuel at some stages of the race because they are pushing.

vettel never had that pressure

 

This appears to be bullshit for the most time. Like Hamilton complained about his tyres in Monaco all the time although they were just fine and he was ******** that they were pitting him for real.

[Rinehart]

It's not actually frozen though, and the token system was proposed, discussed and agreed on by the manufacturers. The fact Ferrari can make huge gains with only 'spending' a fraction of the token allocation gives lie to the claim that performance is fixed or locked in. 

You really think the performance of the Mercedes engine can be caught by other manufacturers under the token system? That's some faith...

 

The facts are simple, Mercedes engine is much better than the others currently, they all have a roughly similar number of tokens. So, over the course of the year, they all spend these tokens. For the others to catch Mercedes their upgrades would not only have to close the existing gap to Mercedes first but then also match Mercedes further improvements with any remaining tokens (whilst all of Mercedes are dedicated to improvement). That would require a far greater level of development effectiveness from the manufacturer who has currently built a worse engine and needs to throw their tokens at this worse engine, for which its core architecture cannot change (there aren't enough tokens to simply start again).

 

They're just going to catch Mercedes and match their advances are they? With the same number of tokens? Thrown at a worse engine - that fundamentally cannot change?

 

I'll grant you it's not impossible, but it is highly, highly unlikely. It is a virtual locking of a performance advantage.

 

The way I see it depending on when manufacturers spend their tokens they may close on Mercedes, but Mercedes will just step forward again when they spend theirs. 

 

I think engine development should be completely de restricted, as we saw in previous eras they'd eventually all close in on optimised solutions and relative parity. If you think this can happen anyway with the token system, then why not de-restrict it and take unnecessary restrictions and rules out of it?

Edited by Rinehart, 24 June 2015 - 09:25.

[paulogman]

This appears to be bullshit for the most time. Like Hamilton complained about his tyres in Monaco all the time although they were just fine and he was ******** that they were pitting him for real.

tires are the same for everybody. I never mentioned tires.

brakes and fuel. especially brakes.
no team orders in Mercedes so the drivers are pushing to win.

[Nonesuch]

vettel never had that pressure

 

Maybe not compared to his teammate, but Vettel had a lot more pressure from other cars and teams than Mercedes has today. The latter half of 2013 was not typical of the years Vettel won his championships.

In the four seasons Vettel won the world title, Red Bull won a total of 41 out of 77 races (53%). Mercedes has won a total of 23 out of 27 races (85%) since the start of 2014. Even year by year the numbers for Red Bull never came close to the dominance Mercedes enjoys today. In 2010, Red Bull won 9 out of 19 races (47%). In 2011, Red Bull won 12 out of 19 races (63%). In 2012, Red Bull won 7 out of 20 races (35%) - the same number as McLaren. In 2013, Red Bull won 13 out of 19 races (68%) - their highest score during these years.

 

Even though Webber was not as close to Vettel as Rosberg is to Hamilton, and even though Vettel and Red Bull were able to 'cruise home' far more often than I would have liked, they were also pushed by other teams to get the maximum out of their car far more often than Mercedes has been.

Edited by Nonesuch, 24 June 2015 - 11:30.

[paulogman]

problem is that when vettel hit any kind of trouble another team would win because he didn't have an equal team mate.
when Hamilton or rosberg under perform it is usually the other who takes the win.
if vettel had a strong team mate then they would have been in position.

looking back through the races, it was rare that the redbull was not the car to have
ferrari and McLaren had some good races but vetted was in command as long as he kept it on the road.

[krea]

tires are the same for everybody. I never mentioned tires.

brakes and fuel. especially brakes.
no team orders in Mercedes so the drivers are pushing to win.

 

Brakes and fuel are the same for pretty much all as well.

 

No team develops it's own brakes but there are like two suppliers.

[garagetinkerer]

The difference is that once RBR had their aero advantage all of the other teams didn't have their aero disadvantages frozen for seasons. There's nothing subtle about the distinction. Also, if a teams' aero solution didn't work, they weren't levied a grid and time penalty at the next race where they had it sorted. The current rules of F1 make Brian France's influence over NASCAR look beneficial.

So much wisdom, so few words.

 

cheers 

[garagetinkerer]

if you lose by 30 seconds or a minute does it matter?
the redbull advantage was so great that it made the other teams also rans.
each team knew coming into the weekend that redbull had the advantage and were able to maintain the advantage.

I don't understand what people think, if power unit development were unfrozen would Mercedes just sit there and wait for the other teams to catch up?
redbull didn't stop developing their car when they were winning, unfreeze the engine development and wave bye bye to the merc teams as they build on their already prodigious advantage over renault.
until the cost of development was so great that no customer team could afford a power unit.









completely off topic, at least with the Mercedes team both drivers are allowed to race and are capable of winning on pace.

Erm, surely Mercedes won't stand still, but Honda and Ferrari may have something to say about it. Right now they're having to work with their hands tied behind their back, and i wonder why you wouldn't be able to acknowledge as much. Honda has come about again to sink in a boat load of money, trouble is the token system.

 

Cost of engines... Yes, i remember when cost was the focus in early 2000's. How new rules were to make it more affordable for small teams, but they haven't. The cost of development of engines is quite high really. Costs are higher than when the wars of V10's was going on about and most teams had plenty sponsorship. I think there's an old-old issue of Autocar/ F1-Racing which covered those expenses.

[garagetinkerer]

problem is that when vettel hit any kind of trouble another team would win because he didn't have an equal team mate.
when Hamilton or rosberg under perform it is usually the other who takes the win.
if vettel had a strong team mate then they would have been in position.

looking back through the races, it was rare that the redbull was not the car to have
ferrari and McLaren had some good races but vetted was in command as long as he kept it on the road.

Strong teammate? Like one who led him into the last race of 2010 for the title? Webber and Vettel were quite close in 2009 and 2010 really. So would you care to pm me on what happened that made Webber a second rung driver overnight in 2011?

 

In 2009, Vettel scored only 14.5 points more than Webber

In 2010, Vettel scored only 14 points more than Webber (do consider that Webber led Vettel into last round)

In 2011, Vettel scored 134 points more than Webber

In 2012, Vettel scored 102 points more than Webber

In 2013, Vettel scored 198 points more than Webber

Let us face it, there was only one driver at RBR who was scoring more points in 2011, 2012, or even 2013. If i used common sense, i'd say that it was the driver who was getting more out of the package. That was not down to Webber losing a step but more Vettel finding one, and just look at the results. He had a stellar reputation before he was partnered with Vettel. I couldn't stand Webbo's whinging at times, but that man could qualify a car and at one point it looked like "the Trulli train," it will have to be renamed.

________________________________________________________________

 

On topic:

Surely as someone who's been complaining about changes being proposed/ made since mid 2000's, i feel for Mateschitz. It would be a safe guess to assume that Mateschitz has been sinking in more money than he's making out of it. The disdain shown to the team is at times quite unusual. Infact, as a tifoso, i'm quite used to having read stories/ articles about big bad Ferrari were/ are... but i see that happening to RBR, and i don't quite like it. Pretty sure i wouldn't like it if it were any other team for that matter.

.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 24 June 2015 - 23:06.

[paulogman]

Brakes and fuel are the same for pretty much all as well.

No team develops it's own brakes but there are like two suppliers.

Getting so far away from the point here.
the merc is a great car
the best of the current crop
and the rules that renault wanted in place have made them uncompetitive
but ferrari showed it is not impossible to make a car better and more conpetitive.


Development has been limited before this new set of rules through wind tunnel limits and reduction of in season testing.
and the rules changes in season to limit the effectiveness of the blown diffusers took away the opportunity for other teams to catch redbull.
the only difference is that the teams chasing redbull didn't cry.
they, especially merc, went to work and maximized their position as an integrated chassis and engine manufacturer.

Redbull demanded from renault only the motor during their period of dominance.
Redbull made their own kers system.
it was only marginally useful to fit the aero demands of adrian newey.
it worked for them and they had a car no one could catch for 4 seasons.
Unfortunately for redbull and renault
the power unit chassis interface is much different and the harvesting and delivery of the electricity is more important that the combustion engine.
So they screwed themselves in a sense by being so successful with the last set of rules.
**** happens

[JeePee]

Paulogman, in 2012 we had 7 different winners in the first 7 races. 2013 only saw the first consecutive win of a team in the 13th race of the season. Don't pretend Red Bull was just as dominant as Mercedes and that their advantage was 'locked in' by wind tunnel limitations, and that for 4 years long you already knew on thursday who was gonna win the race.

Edited by JeePee, 25 June 2015 - 07:25.

[onemoresolo]

Strong teammate? Like one who led him into the last race of 2010 for the title? Webber and Vettel were quite close in 2009 and 2010 really. So would you care to pm me on what happened that made Webber a second rung driver overnight in 2011?

 

In 2009, Vettel scored only 14.5 points more than Webber

In 2010, Vettel scored only 14 points more than Webber (do consider that Webber led Vettel into last round)

In 2011, Vettel scored 134 points more than Webber

In 2012, Vettel scored 102 points more than Webber

In 2013, Vettel scored 198 points more than Webber

Let us face it, there was only one driver at RBR who was scoring more points in 2011, 2012, or even 2013. If i used common sense, i'd say that it was the driver who was getting more out of the package. That was not down to Webber losing a step but more Vettel finding one, and just look at the results. He had a stellar reputation before he was partnered with Vettel. I couldn't stand Webbo's whinging at times, but that man could qualify a car and at one point it looked like "the Trulli train," it will have to be renamed.

________________________________________________________________

 

On topic:

Surely as someone who's been complaining about changes being proposed/ made since mid 2000's, i feel for Mateschitz. It would be a safe guess to assume that Mateschitz has been sinking in more money than he's making out of it. The disdain shown to the team is at times quite unusual. Infact, as a tifoso, i'm quite used to having read stories/ articles about big bad Ferrari were/ are... but i see that happening to RBR, and i don't quite like it. Pretty sure i wouldn't like it if it were any other team for that matter.

.

 

Don't forget that between 2010 and 2011 there was a significant change - tyre supplier. That did massively change the way races were driven. It wouldn't necessarily mean one driver gained or lost a step, but clearly that change would have been a factor in the sudden big opening in the points gap. 

[Doughnut King]

My fear is that if Mercedes wins every race, the powers that be will panic like they did after 2002 and start a new wave of changes that will take seasons to work out and possibly reverse.

[paulogman]

Paulogman, in 2012 we had 7 different winners in the first 7 races. 2013 only saw the first consecutive win of a team in the 13th race of the season. Don't pretend Red Bull was just as dominant as Mercedes and that their advantage was 'locked in' by wind tunnel limitations, and that for 4 years long you already knew on thursday who was gonna win the race.

all I know is that redbull and vettel were odds on favorite except for the 2010 season.
doesn't matter how much you win by if you can't be beat over a whole season.
I just find it funny that redbull want to quit because they aren't the best any more.
really sore losers, especially considering how they only formed as redbull less than ten years ago.
up and down the pitlane are teams that would kill to have won 4 out of 10 titles and taken the good with the bad.
redbull don't have to win to survive unlike other teams that need to chase sponsors.
Williams spent and are spending close to 20 years without a title!
who would have believed that after their run of form in the late 80's and through the 90's.
have they ever blamed the rules or any one else?
Sir Frank Williams is a Quadra palegic who could have quit at any time understandably with respect from his peers but he still 29 years after his accident suits up and gets to work.
dieter might bring alot of money, but he's got no class

Edited by paulogman, 25 June 2015 - 10:44.

[hittheapex]

Paulogman, in 2012 we had 7 different winners in the first 7 races. 2013 only saw the first consecutive win of a team in the 13th race of the season. Don't pretend Red Bull was just as dominant as Mercedes and that their advantage was 'locked in' by wind tunnel limitations, and that for 4 years long you already knew on thursday who was gonna win the race.

2010 was quite competitive as well. When was the last time four drivers had a mathematical chance of winning the championship going into the final race? Yes Red Bull had arguably the fastest or equal fastest car much of the time but it's no good having a quick car that doesn't get to the end of the race. Just ask McLaren about their 2012 season.

Edited by hittheapex, 25 June 2015 - 10:53.

[Redback]

all I know is that redbull and vettel were odds on favorite except for the 2010 season.
doesn't matter how much you win by if you can't be beat over a whole season.
I just find it funny that redbull want to quit because they aren't the best any more.
really sore losers, especially considering how they only formed as redbull less than ten years ago.
up and down the pitlane are teams that would kill to have won 4 out of 10 titles and taken the good with the bad.
redbull don't have to win to survive unlike other teams that need to chase sponsors.
Williams spent and are spending close to 20 years without a title!
who would have believed that after their run of form in the late 80's and through the 90's.
have they ever blamed the rules or any one else?
Sir Frank Williams is a Quadra palegic who could have quit at any time understandably with respect from his peers but he still 29 years after his accident suits up and gets to work.
dieter might bring alot of money, but he's got no class

You really are quite bitter aren't you?

 

I've been a Williams fan since the late '70s, but I also know that Mateshitz has had a bigger role in promoting motorsport of all types around the world that Frank ever will.

 

Red Bull as a company deserves to be acknowledged for that investment and if they won in F1 as a result of putting resources into their team, - good luck to them.

 

Virtually everyone in the world can see there's an issue with F1 at present.  Mateshitz likes to win (successful people usually do) but that doesn't mean his comments are just sour grapes or that he's wrong.

 

Your bitterness appears to be clouding your perspective.

[paulogman]

no not bitter at all
and I've been a Williams fan just as long
all the whining and complaining from red Bull is about getting changes in their favor
ferrari could do it because they have power
redbull may have invested a lot of money, but they don't have the political strength to pull it off

Edited by paulogman, 25 June 2015 - 12:32.

[LuckyStrike1]

They seem to have enough political power to be able to negotiated a very favorable commercial deal better than all the other teams bar Ferrari. 

 

Red Bull has been involved in F1 in almost 30 years so I don't think their political power should be underestimated. 

[PassWind]

So many misguided and jealous/envious/angry posters in here. Mateschitz is spot on and from his point of view you can understand why.

To those who complain about them just being a team coming in and then walking away, RB have been sponsoring F1 long before they started their own teams. They've brought the old A1 RIng back to what it used to be while running a brilliant event so I can see that hardly any of the fans in appreciate any of what they have done for F1 one bit regardless if they are a manufacturer or not. The more independent teams the better and it is far better than teams falling by the wayside.

Teams complaining about RBR not winning again - it's not that, it is the PU regulations and the **** PU Renault have made two years in a row. They've wasted money building a car when they know it won't have a chance of podiums as the PU is too much of an advantage over the driver and chassis. They've wasted money in trying to assist Renault and it has gotten no where. They are losing money in the constructors because teams with the better PU will end up getting the points particularly at power friendly circuits.

Sorry but if I'm spending $400 million a year on F1 and I'm lumped with a piss poor PU, then I'm wasting my money away and not getting value for it. That is his main argument - not the winning one that a lot of fans are twisting his words into. I would rather use that $400 million, quit F1 and go and build a car for another series. For all the criticisms of his current situation, all the fans in here are a bunch of hypocrites because that is what we've been complaining about the past year. He has as much passion and more than some of the fans on this board, otherwise he wouldn't have invested in the first place.

 

Most cant mate because its a bigot based forum hiding behind the skirts of their favoured drivers people loved Redbull when DC drove (see Monaco podium) for them, then a nasty german starting driving for them and even worse he used a finger, and when their own prodigy couldn't get equipment they so adamantly insisted he deserve the crowd turned and Briatore left the sport so who was going to be the next villain Team Manager, Ron had exited and asides the prodigy was there plus they is British dammit. I guarantee that Mercedes would be square in the target zone right now if Mr Lewis Hamilton wasn't driving for them. I think the picture starts to become clearer now   . One only has to cast a eye back too 2000-2005 to see how Mr Schumacher was revered and in a damned red Italian car at that. 

 

If anything its an interesting study of the crowd dynamic, that is the sheep so to speak. 

[DILLIGAF]

no not bitter at all
and I've been a Williams fan just as long
all the whining and complaining from red Bull is about getting changes in their favor
ferrari could do it because they have power
redbull may have invested a lot of money, but they don't have the political strength to pull it off

It's not about RBR getting changes to favour themselves, it's about getting changes that give them the ability to compete and perhaps win races.

 

You say they whine and complain. Sure they do, just like McLaren and others pissed and moaned about Red Bulls front wings. The continual whining eventually led to regulation changes to take away Red Bulls advantage. Were you against those changes too paul?

 

I'm not a big fan of RBR, but Mateschitz is entitled to complain if the regulations make it virtually impossible to win.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 26 June 2015 - 00:01.

[FenderJaguar]

Seems to me some of you dont hear what he is saying. F1 is too restricted with the development and the racing is dull. He has a point. These engines bother me. I get the feeling Mercedes bought the championship. That is how exciting it is

[paulogman]

he said that if redbull isn't competitive he'll leave.
funny thing is that if the tables were turned would he be willing to let a non competitive manufacturer catch up?
I mean he wants the sport to be competitive right?

[Marklar]

AMuS is speculating that Mateschitz and Bernies critizism of current F1 is on porpuse to cut the prize. Apparently Red Bull wants to be the F1 promoter and Bernie wants to damage CVC

[InvertedLift]

he said that if redbull isn't competitive he'll leave.
funny thing is that if the tables were turned would he be willing to let a non competitive manufacturer catch up?
I mean he wants the sport to be competitive right?

Willing or not that's exactly what happened during Red Bulls years. Every effort was made to bring them back to the pack by banning the EBD, constantly changing the front wing flex tests etc.

 

Mercedes advantage is being progressively locked in more and more by the stupid token regulations.

[hittheapex]

he said that if redbull isn't competitive he'll leave.
funny thing is that if the tables were turned would he be willing to let a non competitive manufacturer catch up?
I mean he wants the sport to be competitive right?

 

Would any of the leading teams be willing? Or, to put it another way, would any of them be willing to have their extra payments that they get just for turning up reduced?

[thiscocks]

Good, hope him and Horner **** off so we cant hear their pathetic whining anymore. Hopefully there will be some Frank Williams type to replace them (but I doubt it).

[kevinracefan]

Actually I've worked in motorsport and motoring for 20 years, so well aware of the structure. They are alliance, but you are making the assumption that Infiniti and Nissan are happy with what Renault are doing, so would see the blame with Red Bull and would not work with them because they have criticised their partner. Show me a biliionaire who is happy to compromise on anything, I am sure that DM thinks that Renault have already been well rewarded for past success. a) by being paid for engines by RBR and b) having their engines in a championship winning car design and team that they didn't have to pay for.
 
This is business and Infiniti and Nissan are commercial partners of RBR, they put money in to Red Bull Racing. I'm not sure there is much love lost between Infiniti and Renault, Infiniti wanted to badge the F1 engines, but Renault said NO. Infiniti wanted to do this because despite all the brand recognition that their marketing people can extrapalate, the Infiniti people I have spoken to me say this is not reflected in sales because the brand (in car terms is new) that people don't know what Infinti means, as one guy said to me in the UK they probably think we are broadband...
 
If you were Nissan, who would you rather have design a WEC car, Bowlby or Newey? So why not put the Infiniti budget into WEC, make the car an Infiniti (which would fit much better against Porsche and Audi) and put a 3 car team in WEC which would soak up a lot of Red Bull talent.
 
I think Renault  are heading for the F1 exit, their who F1 project was supposed to be either a face wipe or profit centre. They only have one customer left so the engine project is costing Renault money. To buy another team to establish a wrks entry will mean an underwrite from Renault of several hundred million dollars(at least) with no guaratee of any success.

to a large extent, as a major owner of Nissan, Renault controls Nissan's purse strings... if this union (Renault / RBR) falls apart completely do you really think Renault would let Nissan pour dollars into a project?? I don't.. no effing chance...

[pdac]

It's not about RBR getting changes to favour themselves, it's about getting changes that give them the ability to compete and perhaps win races.

 

So what's their take on getting changes that allow other teams to compete too? There's a whole midfield out there that would love to be more competitive but they can't afford it because Red Bull grab a loins share of the prize money. No, they are just worried about one particular aspect that is affecting them.