158 replies to this topic

[aramos]

http://www.motorspor...l-15061607.html

 

 

Interesting statement, but when you look deeply makes a lot of sense. Hamilton and Hulkenberg both had incredibly strong junior careers and won practically everything there is to win in equal hardware. The choice of Ricciardo over Vettel after 2014 also makes complete sense. Although its a bit odd he didn't include the most obvious choice, himself. 

Edited by aramos, 19 June 2015 - 01:44.

[sennafan24]

I saw this a few days ago. Alonso picking Hulk over Button and Seb is interesting, but not unfathomable.  Alonso made his choices while alongside Sainz, with the rule being that Alonso and Sainz could not include each other or themselves. Saintz picked Lewis, D.R and Seb.

 

I think both were pretty reasonable with their choices.

 

I would go with Lewis and Alonso. Then one of either Button, D.R or Seb, depending on what day you asked me. 

[lbennie]

Without being able to choose alonso, I would have gone with Sainz' Picks.

 

Alonso has always been a huge fan of the Hulk though, so I can understand why he has him in there.

[aramos]

Without being able to choose alonso, I would have gone with Sainz' Picks.

 

Alonso has always been a huge fan of the Hulk though, so I can understand why he has him in there.

 

Has Hulkenberg ever been beaten by a team mate? Williams 2010 is the only instance I can think of, which is somewhat understandable for a rookie. Since then he has been consistently ahead of the guys in the same machinery.

 

Ultimately 'identical cars' is a bit of a hard test, as fans views of drivers is mostly shaped by the quality of machinery they have. Realistically the drivers who should excel in this test are the ones who consistently beat the guys in the same machinery as them, be that a Force India or a Mercedes. 

[warp]

Has Hulkenberg ever been beaten by a team mate?

 

Not as of yet.

He's behind in points this season against Perez, though but the season is still very young and this year's car is hopeless for FI.

 

In equal machinery, Perez got a podium. Hulk no yet so far.

 

I am neither putting Perez at the same level as Hulk (I struggle to believe he is), neither taking anything away from Hulk, but the choice sounds odd to me. Alonso know far more about driving than me, so I will trust his judgement.

[aramos]

Not as of yet.

He's behind in points this season against Perez, though but the season is still very young and this year's car is hopeless for FI.

 

In equal machinery, Perez got a podium. Hulk no yet so far.

 

I am neither putting Perez at the same level as Hulk (I struggle to believe he is), neither taking anything away from Hulk, but the choice sounds odd to me. Alonso know far more about driving than me, so I will trust his judgement.

 

Thats not really that damning for Hulkenberg, Perez was seen as one of the top drivers, enough to get a promotion to McLaren back when they had one of the fastest cars. I think overall he's shown himself to be of higher quality generally than Perez in qualifying and races. He's currently a single point behind with an extra retirement to his name and I suspect that will correct itself over the season.

[lbennie]

Thats not really that damning for Hulkenberg, Perez was seen as one of the top drivers, enough to get a promotion to McLaren back when they had one of the fastest cars. I think overall he's shown himself to be of higher quality generally than Perez in qualifying and races. He's currently a single point behind with an extra retirement to his name and I suspect that will correct itself over the season.

 

He was also good enough to be sacked after his first season with them. so I'm assuming they rated Kovalianen higher.

[DRSwing]

Just in case anyone is interested, Fernando's comments were from his interview together with Carlos Sainz

Kosmos kindly provided the link in a thread about this interview a couple of weeks back.

There is also a part 2

Great interview with many fun bits and good, honest answers.

Thanks so much to FA14Tribute, if you are on this forum. You are such a champ to take the effort to provide the english subtitles to both parts of the interview!

[Marklar]

The interview was made in Monaco and we even discuss it here but the German media published his quotes on Monday because of Hulkenbergs win in Le Mans with the headline "Alonso : Hulkenberg is better than Vettel". They did it to make it look like that Nando is so jealous of Seb that he even considers a guy over Vettel just because he won one race. Pretty pathetic as always.

Edited by Marklar, 19 June 2015 - 05:23.

[Zava]

Surprise, surprise. Alonso wouldn't say Vettel even if he was threatened with a blazing hot iron stick.

[aramos]

Surprise, surprise. Alonso wouldn't say Vettel even if he was threatened with a blazing hot iron stick.

 

 

Maybe he genuinely doesn't put Vettel in that trio? Thats not at all unreasonable. Hulkenberg has shown consistent excellence in every class of racing. Ricciardo beat Vettel by a very strong margin in the same car. Sure, you could make an argument of Vettel being more worthy than Hulkenberg I agree, but its by no means a bygone conclusion.

[Kimble]

Alonso really doesn't like Vettel and will never give him any credit.  I think Seb's destruction of him over those 4 years really did him some damage.

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

Surprise Surprise. Fernando Alonso simply has chosen his choices and some people tear themselves apart why there is no Sebastian Vettel name in his list. Mentioned people can name their lists too if anyone is interested.

[FirstWatt]

If you have to pick 3 (+2 who are not eligible), still 15 will not be in that list...and at least one World Champion.
You can't win when you have to put down such a list.

[Zava]

Maybe he genuinely doesn't put Vettel in that trio? Thats not at all unreasonable. Hulkenberg has shown consistent excellence in every class of racing. Ricciardo beat Vettel by a very strong margin in the same car. Sure, you could make an argument of Vettel being more worthy than Hulkenberg I agree, but its by no means a bygone conclusion.

you make it sound like that opinion is a bit on the extreme end.    yes, I could make a pretty good argument. but is it even needed?

 

RYARLE, because you mimicked my post I assume you want a list from me. with these rules I'd go with Sainz's answer, most probably. I know, boring.

[jjcale]

Amazing! That's also my top 3 

 

FA has a question mark beside him since that accident in testing ... but otherwise he would be second and NH and DR equal third just above SV and JB.

[FirstWatt]

[...]I think Seb's destruction of him over those 4 years really did him some damage.

Destruction....well, it's rather that Alonso can judge Vettel pretty well, as he knew exactly how much inferior his material was in comparison, when still coming close to Vettel in more than one circumstance.
But of course some jealousy may have grown because of that.

[jjcale]

Alonso really doesn't like Vettel and will never give him any credit.  I think Seb's destruction of him over those 4 years really did him some damage.

 

It really annoyed me to see SV winning 4 in a row ... and I'm just a fan .... Imagine what it must have been like for the other drivers ... not one has ever said he is the best or even equal best - notice that?

 

He's a nice enough guy though.... would have been impossible to take if he was an ass.

[redraven9]

Vettel is yet to prove himself in a bad car, battling in the field. We all see what happened last year.

[Baddoer]

Vettel is yet to prove himself in a bad car, battling in the field. We all see what happened last year.

How about 2007 or 2008.

[motorhead]

Vettel is yet to prove himself in a bad car, battling in the field. We all see what happened last year.

 

Ok, when Hamilton will prove himself in a bad car?

[PayasYouRace]

Ok, when Hamilton will prove himself in a bad car?

 

2009

[Kimble]

I think his performances in TR proved his worth in a 'bad car'.  One flaky season in an unreliable RB doesn't undo 4x WDC,  it takes real ability and strength to put that sort of run together.

[Zava]

How about 2007 or 2008.

That doesn't count, because... reasons.

[tom]

People mentioning button have got me confused, might aswell just say kimi considering how jens got a pummelling on pure pace (yeah yeah not luck-fueled Points) by lewis. And was no better than even with perez/magnussen. Hulk a shock to me too. Bottas any1?

[sennafan24]

People mentioning button have got me confused, might aswell just say kimi considering how jens got a pummelling on pure pace (yeah yeah not luck-fueled Points) by lewis. And was no better than even with perez/magnussen. Hulk a shock to me too. Bottas any1?

I agree that Lewis had the measure of Jenson during most of their 3 years as teammates, but I feel you are sleeping on Jenson a bit. What Button lacks in one lap pace, he makes up for with consistency, longevity and race-craft.

 

Lewis has had 2 years with Nico as a teammate, and a rookie year with Alonso. Only Button has managed to beat him over a full campaign, and cleanly at that. Regardless as to whether Lewis was at his worst in 2011, I don't think many drivers could beat Lewis's B-Game. Jenson deserves a lot of credit for 2011, and for that matter, most recent years of his career. The sub-par McLaren cars he has been fed since 2012 have not done him justice.

Edited by sennafan24, 19 June 2015 - 08:08.

[Marklar]

The only thing Vettel didn't have proved is if last year was an off-year. He took himselfs the chance to prove it. But all the other things he have proved himself. But stil I think that Alonsos choices of the top 3 is understandable. Hamilton is a great driver, for me also better than Vettel, they're is no discussion. Ricciardo beat Vettel -> understandable. Hulkenberg was in the feeder Formula series the best of all current drivers and did some great races with an inferior car. Also understandable.

[Jon83]

Vettel is yet to prove himself in a bad car, battling in the field. We all see what happened last year.

 

Early 2012?

 

There's also no doubt that the Toro Rosso he drove with such brilliance at times was actually a world beater
 

[kosmos]

Alonso really doesn't like Vettel and will never give him any credit.  I think Seb's destruction of him over those 4 years really did him some damage.

 

 

The  same rubbish from  "some" Kimi or/and Vettel fans over and over again. Just for you:

 

 

Spanish:

 

Para ser justo, Alonso no sabe si hubiera ganado la carrera de Malasia, como hizo Vettel, con ese coche. "A lo mejor no, porque estuvo excepcional. Kimi no estuvo cerca y hay veces que tienes un fin de semana perfecto y eso le sucedió a Sebastian. Quizá yo no lo hubiera conseguido", dice respetuoso.

 

English:

 

To be fair, Alonso don't know if he could have won the Malaysia race like Vettel did with that car. "Maybe not, he was exceptional. Kimi was never close and sometimes you have a prefect weekend and that happen to Sebastian (that weekend). Perhaps I couldn't have achieved something like that", he said respectfully.

 

http://www.marca.com...1434643444.html

 

 

 

So there you go, there is no ******** or any rubbish like that, he simply don't rate Vettel as a top 3, is simply his opinion, and he is not the only one, like it or not.

[YoungGun]

The  same rubbish from  "some" Kimi or/and Vettel fans over and over again. Just for you:

 

 

 

 

So there you go, there is no ******** or any rubbish like that, he simply don't rate Vettel as a top 3, is simply his opinion, and he is not the only one, like it or not.

 

Which he is entitled to.

[sopa]

In a situation, where Hulkenberg has barely been able to elevate himself above Perez, it is hardly possible to rank him above Vettel.

 

So far in 2015 Vettel has proven 2014 was a one-off. What will the future prove, we will see.

[DILLIGAF]

I saw this a few days ago. Alonso picking Hulk over Button and Seb is interesting, but not unfathomable.  Alonso made his choices while alongside Sainz, with the rule being that Alonso and Sainz could not include each other or themselves. Saintz picked Lewis, D.R and Seb.
 
I think both were pretty reasonable with their choices.
 
I would go with Lewis and Alonso. Then one of either Button, D.R or Seb, depending on what day you asked me. 

Fair call. Like you I'd go with Lewis and Alonso. As the question relates to equal machinery i'd have to go with Ricciardo as my third purely because he beat Seb in the same car.

[Fontainebleau]

Dear all,

 

This thread was going really well when you all were analysing the pros and cons of Alonso/Sainz picks, and your agreement/disagreement with them. It made a turn for the worse when some of you decided to speculate about what hidden personal reasons Alonso/Sainz could have for said picks. Try to keep it on the good side and don't let trolling raise its ugly head...

 

Best,

 

F.

[aramos]

That doesn't count, because... reasons.

 

He didn't exactly have strong competition either year. Liuzzi beat him in results and Bourdais (with less experience than Vettel) isn't a very good yardstick. 

 

Again, its not an unreasonable argument that Vettel has never beaten a top tier driver in the same car. If you asked me my top 3 of course I'd state Alonso, Hamilton, Ricciardo as they're in my view the  top 3 on the grid right now, but there is still a good argument for the third spot.

[Heisenberg]

http://www.motorspor...l-15061607.html

 

 

Interesting statement, but when you look deeply makes a lot of sense. Hamilton and Hulkenberg both had incredibly strong junior careers and won practically everything there is to win in equal hardware. The choice of Ricciardo over Vettel after 2014 also makes complete sense. Although its a bit odd he didn't include the most obvious choice, himself. 

It's quite pointless to judge someone's performance in one year, they were team mates (Vettel & Ricciardo I mean) for only one season. Had they been together for 2 or 3 seasons, then yeah I'd understand. Of course, there's nothing wrong with having an opinion, in the end, everyone is entitled to that. 

 

If I'd have to make a top3 now, it would be Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel (in no particular order). Vettel showed multiple times that he is fast and that he can overtake on track, you cannot judge him over one season, even Hamilton had terrible seasons (2011). Look at Seb's 2008, 2010, 2012 seasons, they were good. 

 

It's a bit hard to rate Ricciardo or Bottas yet, I mean Ricciardo looked mediocre in those Toro Rosso cars and last year he made some daring moves and everyone praised him, but I think you need time.

Edited by Heisenberg, 19 June 2015 - 08:45.

[1Devil1]

I love this style to establish a drivers vs drivers thread, it's normally not allowed on this forum, but if driver A or B says something about another driver, it's allowed to talk about the drivers opinion, but what people really do is giving their own judgement if Vettel, Lewis or any other drivers deserve it to be regarded as best. I see no difference just the name of the game is different

Edited by 1Devil1, 19 June 2015 - 08:43.

[Nonesuch]

Alonso has always been among the first to congratulate Vettel on his successes when they were battling it out. I'm sure he is disappointed to have lost out on three titles by less than 10 points in all, two of them to Vettel, but to suggest he carries a grudge and wants to 'take revenge' by not picking Vettel in a light-hearted chat on Spanish TV perhaps says more about the person making the accusation than about Alonso.

 

There's nothing wrong with either list, obviously. The guys near the top are all great drivers and there's a lot less between them than some believe and want others to believe.

Edited by Nonesuch, 19 June 2015 - 08:48.

[Jimisgod]

Ricciardo beat Vettel, Hamilton beat Rosberg and Button. Hulkenberg is yet to be beaten over a season since his rookie year, and even then he was the only one to get a pole in the 2010 car.

[chrisPB15]

Alonso really doesn't like Vettel and will never give him any credit.  I think Seb's destruction of him over those 4 years really did him some damage.

 

err no, Alonso came back time and time again with good performances and plaudits. In sports, when you are beaten to the point of "damaged"you are normally finished.

[chrisPB15]

It's a bit hard to rate Ricciardo or Bottas yet, I mean Ricciardo looked mediocre in those Toro Rosso cars and last year he made some daring moves and everyone praised him, but I think you need time.

 

 

I would stick my neck out and say Ricciardo and Bottas would win races this year with Merc.

[KavB]

Alonso and Hulkenberg raced a fair bit in the first half of last year so he must have impressed him a lot for him to keep up. And I remember in 2013 he was very impressed when Nico got 4th in Monza.

 

Alonso has never rated Vettel that highly so it's not surprising he didn't put him in the list.

Edited by KavB, 19 June 2015 - 09:44.

[YoungGun]

I would stick my neck out and say Ricciardo and Bottas would win races this year with Merc.

 

As could the other 18 drivers on the grid.

[noikeee]

You guys do realize giving a quick answer in an interview doesn't mean he's been thinking about this answer all day long, right?

 

Hulk just won Le Mans, his name is fresh. That's it.

 

Personally I rate him somewhat highly, but above Vettel at the present time, given what we know? .... no.

[kosmos]

 

 

Hulk just won Le Mans, his name is fresh. That's it.

 

 

 

 

Fernando picking Hulk has anything to do with Le Mans or his name being fresh.

[Kimble]

err no, Alonso came back time and time again with good performances and plaudits. In sports, when you are beaten to the point of "damaged"you are normally finished.

 

Mentally damaged or 'scarred'.  He does start to drive like a bit of a tool when Vettel is around him. 

[kosmos]

Mentally damaged or 'scarred'.  He does start to drive like a bit of a tool when Vettel is around him. 

 

 

I think you got it backwards. You can start watching the last GP.

[Timantti]

So there you go, there is no ******** or any rubbish like that, he simply don't rate Vettel as a top 3, is simply his opinion, and he is not the only one, like it or not.

 

The thing is, had Hulkenberg or Ricciardo won 4 titles in a row in that RB, neither of them would be on that Alonso's top 3 list. 

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

The thing is, had Hulkenberg or Ricciardo won 4 titles in a row in that RB, neither of them would be on that Alonso's top 3 list. 

The thing is you can't be sure about what you always imagine.

[1Devil1]

Mentally damaged or 'scarred'.  He does start to drive like a bit of a tool when Vettel is around him. 

 

It's quit obvious that Alonso acts differently when Vettel is near him, last year in Silverstone, this year in Canada. It reminded me when Rosberg, who is not known for being overaggressive started to pull aggressive moves against firstly Schumacher and then Hamilton. I see the same pattern with Alonso and Vettel. Hill also liked to throw his car in front of Schumacher's when he was at a backmarker team. No driver would say something like that in public, but the history of drivers certainly effects they way they fight against each other 

[Melchiot]

Im sure Vettel is going to lose sleep at night knowing that ALonso does not think too highly of him.