30 replies to this topic

[Jobjoris]

Hi all,

 

Recently I obtained a Schuco Porsche 908 1/43, the Stommelen/Neerpasch number 33 of Le Mans 1968. And something curious caught my eye.

On it's left side, in front of the rear wheel, is a Shell logo, just like on the actual picture above.

 

On the other side though, on the same location in front of the rear-wheel, is something I suspect to be some kind of (class-) flag, yellow with a 'cross'.

And that was on te real car as well.

 

Again, I suspect it to be a class-flag, like in sailing where a letter of the nautical flag alphabet is used to identifies a ship's class. But this flag is not of the nautical kind, I'm sure of that.

 

So my question to you all is: What is this yellow 'flag'/rectangle? And if it's a class-identifier: why did the OCA come up with this new 'flag' when the nautical world had a complete and widely known system at hand already?

 

I hope anyone has an answer.

 

Enjoy the weekend!

 

Joep

[Vitesse2]

There's an excellent Ferodo film of Le Mans 1968 on YouTube. While it concentrates on the GT40s, there are shots of lots of other cars. However, the Stommelen/Neerpasch Porsche appears to be the only one with that marking. As it's directly below the fuel filler, perhaps it's a very large indication to the pit crew that a particular experimental blend was to be used in that car only?

 

[Tim Murray]

I've checked the race reports and photos in Autosport and Motor Sport. No other cars appear to have anything resembling that marking, and there's no mention of it in the reports. I'd back Vitesse's suggestion that it's something used by Porsche to distinguish that particular car.

[RStock]

The other Porsches that year had a similar "flag", but with no X and different colors which matched their nose color. So they are not class identifiers. I've also seen them on the other side I believe.

 

https://www.stuttcar...908/01lh-coupe/

Edited by RStock, 20 June 2015 - 19:30.

[Jobjoris]

Thanks so far guys, I think the class-identifier is off indeed. I just looked the Siffert/Hermann 908 of that year (Schuco did that one as well) and indeed: totally different 'flag'.

Only reasonable explanation must that it's meant for the pit-crew than.

 

Thanks again!

[Jack-the-Lad]

Yes, I would agree...differentiating colors for pit crew and also timers keeping lap charts. That side of the car would have been visible to the signalmen at Mulsanne corner.

Jack

Edited by Jack-the-Lad, 20 June 2015 - 22:50.

[Catalina Park]

Yes, I would agree...differentiating colors for pit crew and also timers keeping lap charts. That side of the car would have been visible to the signalmen at Mulsanne corner.

Jack

I think that would be it. The signalling crew at would see the side of the car before they see the nose, so they would know a few seconds earlier which board to hang out.

[Roger Clark]

There was similar identification on the 907s that ran at Daytona.

[Alan Cox]

There was similar identification on the 907s that ran at Daytona.

...yes, but on the opposite side of the cars. As Daytona runs anti-clockwise in contrast to Le Mans, and the pits are located infield, these identification patches can be seen from the pits on the respective circuits

Edited by Alan Cox, 21 June 2015 - 19:49.

[funformula]

This link show the Porsche 908. The blue No.34 had a blue/black "flag" on it´s side

http://images.forum-...1323334LM68.jpg

[Emery0323]

No great mystery here - If you look at old photographs of the Porsche factory endurance racing entries from the 1960's, there were almost always different-colored swatches on the nose of the car to make the cars easier to distinguish. 

 

It varied somewhat by year, but Jo Siffert usually had the green swatch, other driver pairings would usually have other color assignments that lasted through a given season. In 1969, at least,  Elford usually had blue, Schutz & Mitter usually had red, Stommelen Yellow, etc.,  

 

1968 was different, but I can't remember the assignments off the top of my head.

 

When you see those rectangular patches on the side of the car, they always match  the swatch of color on the nose: 

 

At LM 1968, it was  Green for Siffert #31, , Red for Elford #32, Yellow for #33 Stommelen (the cross helped the pale color from being washed-out against the white background), blue for #34 (Scooter Patrick / Buzzetta - Was the blue because they were Americans?).    They also appeared at Daytona, but seem to be absent at most other races. 

 

So, those side-patches just replicate the identifying color on the nose that Porsche used to tell the cars apart from a distance.

[Jack-the-Lad]

Porsche did this routinely, I believe. As I recall (I haven't bothered to actually look it up) the 908/3s had different markings at the Targa Florio. I think differently colored front panels was done as early as the factory 904s, perhaps even earlier, as a way of identifying cars by something other than their numbers.

[Tim Murray]

The point here, surely, is that this particular Porsche had a yellow-and-black marking on its right-hand side that did not tie in with the rest of the orange Porsche colour identification.

[275 GTB-4]

When did the use of coloured, high mounted side lights to show driver etc cease to be used at Le Mans?

[Jobjoris]

No great mystery here - If you look at old photographs of the Porsche factory endurance racing entries from the 1960's, there were almost always different-colored swatches on the nose of the car to make the cars easier to distinguish. 

 

...

At LM 1968, it was  Green for Siffert #31, , Red for Elford #32, Yellow for #33 Stommelen (the cross helped the pale color from being washed-out against the white background), blue for #34 (Scooter Patrick / Buzzetta - Was the blue because they were Americans?).    They also appeared at Daytona, but seem to be absent at most other races. 

 

So, those side-patches just replicate the identifying color on the nose that Porsche used to tell the cars apart from a distance.

 

Well, the mystery is that the side-patch (yellow/black) DOESN'T match the nose (orange). That's part of the mystery to me that is. But the explanation about the black cross sounds spot-on.

 

Thanks!

[Vitesse2]

Well, the mystery is that the side-patch (yellow/black) DOESN'T match the nose (orange). That's part of the mystery to me that is. But the explanation about the black cross sounds spot-on.

 

Thanks!

Possibly something to do with making it distinguishable under sodium lighting?

 

http://www.thenakeds...gs-look-orange/

[Roger Clark]

did Porsche use the side identification colours at any races other than Le Mans and Daytona?  And if not, why?

[kayemod]

Porsche did this routinely, I believe. As I recall (I haven't bothered to actually look it up) the 908/3s had different markings at the Targa Florio. I think differently colored front panels was done as early as the factory 904s, perhaps even earlier, as a way of identifying cars by something other than their numbers.

 

I remember that, one year the four Porsche Targa Florio entries had playing card identification markings, clubs, diamonds, hearts and spades, can't recall who played the last trump to win though.

[Vitesse2]

I remember that, one year the four Porsche Targa Florio entries had playing card identification markings, clubs, diamonds, hearts and spades, can't recall who played the last trump to win though.

An idea which goes back at least to the Austro Daimlers which ran in the Targa Florio in the 1922. The connection of course being Herr Doktor Porsche!

 

http://origin.porsche.com/uk/node/533

[Roger Clark]

I can't believe that the playing card motifs had any significant role in identification of the 908/3s.  The different arrows painted on the noses of the cars would have been far more effective.  The playing cards were not present when the cars next raced, at the Nürburgring.

[Jack-the-Lad]

The arrows and card motifs were great, weren't they? Things were still somewhat what whimsical then. Today they'd probably use a bar code or transmitter of some type......

[Emery0323]

Well, the mystery is that the side-patch (yellow/black) DOESN'T match the nose (orange). That's part of the mystery to me that is. But the explanation about the black cross sounds spot-on.

 

Thanks!

 

I think you're giving the team management (Steinemann?) waaaaay too much credit for color-matching.  

 

I suspect what happened here is that the nose swatches were spray-painted, but those side patches were added later (at the last minute?) and were probably mylar or contact-paper which  was available in only limited colors that didn't give an exact match to the nose paint.   For the purposes of the #33,  the "yellow" patch was considered the closest available approximation of "yellow-orange", i.e., it was not the green/ blue / red of the other entries.   

It's possible that the tail panel was swapped at the last minute, and the Identification color had to be approximated on short notice.

 

On the #31, for example, the color match between the side panel and the nose certainly looks better.  I think it's clear that their intention was to match the color on the nose, but due to a need to improvise on short notice, "yellow" = "yellow-orange" was adequate for the purpose at hand. 

 

I recall reading once that the color swatches on the Ford Mark II cars at LM 1966 were added during practice due to pit crew confusion, and they had to buy brightly-color contact paper at a local hardware store in whatever colors were available in order to improvise ID patches on the spot.   Something similar might have happened here.

Edited by Emery0323, 23 June 2015 - 09:01.

[Emery0323]

Here is another example of the side-patches matched to the identification color on the nose -

Daytona 1968, was run counter-clockwise, so the patches are on the left side of the cars here so that they'd be visible from the pits & infield:

 

http://www.sportscar...113-620x557.jpg

 

The side-patches look as if they're  taped-on here, they're surrounded by black tape.  Were they added at the last minute?

 

Once again the yellow patch has a saltire-cross through it, due to the poor contrast between yellow and the white background color.

Edited by Emery0323, 23 June 2015 - 08:57.

[Jobjoris]

I think you're giving the team management (Steinemann?) waaaaay too much credit for color-matching.  

 

I suspect what happened here is that the nose swatches were spray-painted, but those side patches were added later (at the last minute?) and were probably mylar or contact-paper which  was available in only limited colors that didn't give an exact match to the nose paint.   For the purposes of the #33,  the "yellow" patch was considered the closest available approximation of "yellow-orange", i.e., it was not the green/ blue / red of the other entries.   

It's possible that the tail panel was swapped at the last minute, and the Identification color had to be approximated on short notice.

 

On the #31, for example, the color match between the side panel and the nose certainly looks better.  I think it's clear that their intention was to match the color on the nose, but due to a need to improvise on short notice, "yellow" = "yellow-orange" was adequate for the purpose at hand. 

 

I recall reading once that the color swatches on the Ford Mark II cars at LM 1966 were added during practice due to pit crew confusion, and they had to buy brightly-color contact paper at a local hardware store in whatever colors were available in order to improvise ID patches on the spot.   Something similar might have happened here.

 

All 3 other 908s seems to have good color matching but I think the 'local improvisation'-part could be a pretty good explanation, especially with that LM66-Ford story to 'back it up'. It was a complete other era of course, very hard for me to imagine all this as I wasn't even born back then. Thanks for enlightening me!

[Doug Nye]

We have several colour photos showing the fluorescent nose colours being brush painted prior to the Targa Florio and other races - the brush strokes plainly visible.

[Emery0323]

We have several colour photos showing the fluorescent nose colours being brush painted prior to the Targa Florio and other races - the brush strokes plainly visible.

 

Right, if you look at practice photos, typically the factory Porsches are all-white, and then the identification colors seem to appear only in race-day photos.  Brush-painting would not surprise me.

 

There's an interesting b&w  photo in one of the books on the Porsche 917 that shows somebody (Tony Lapine?) in a dark garage at night painting the lime-green swirls on the famous psychedelic #3 Martini 917LH the night before the 1970 Le Mans race.

 

What's funny about it is that they appear to have hand-masked that very complicated swirl pattern using maskng tape and paper on top of the complementary purple scheme underneath, and if memory serves, they were using rattle-can spray paint, no professional paint-spraying equipment is visible.  

 

Practice photos show the car with a purple & white scheme.  There's an interview with Tony Lapine in one of the books on the 917, where he says the mechanics were questioning him during practice: "Purple and WHITE?? Those colors don't go together!"  and then on raceday morning, they see the car in purple & green and say to him "Ahhh, purple and green!   Much better!"      Considering how famous that paint job is, it's interesting how basic the preparation was.

[Mistron]

My old boss worked in the styling department of Porsche in the '70s and told me that the designers on occasion had to paint the race liveries on the cars at the circuit, this was a rush as the focus was on prepping the car, but at least they got a trip to the race, and once the work was done they were free to enjoy the race. He was there in the later '70s, so the Martini stripes era, and probably  would involve replicating stripes into spare front ends, doors and tails. No easy task.

 

So brush strokes would be the least of his worries!

 

Al

[kayemod]

My old boss worked in the styling department of Porsche in the '70s and told me that the designers on occasion had to paint the race liveries on the cars at the circuit, this was a rush as the focus was on prepping the car, but at least they got a trip to the race, and once the work was done they were free to enjoy the race. He was there in the later '70s, so the Martini stripes era, and probably  would involve replicating stripes into spare front ends, doors and tails. No easy task.

 

So brush strokes would be the least of his worries!

 

Al

 

Fluorescent paints aren't easy to apply, they're almost always sprayed over a white background. Applying the stuff by brush would be easier for a rush last minute job with a lot less masking needed, but brush marks and patchiness would be inevitable, though I doubt that would have worried most racing teams back in the 1970s. Porsches of that era weren't renowned for their cosmetic finish and some aspects of workmanship. We saw a few privately owned ones in for repair at Specialised Mouldings, Bob Robinson next door at Arch reckoned that as far as their tube frames were concerned, they'd employed some of the worst welders in Europe, and we thought pretty much the same about whoever was responsible for their fibreglass, only Autodelta's Alfas were rougher. Both teams had a lot of success of course, so a smart finish isn't everything.

Edited by kayemod, 24 June 2015 - 09:42.

[275 GTB-4]

So...

 

To finish first, a smart finish isn't necessary, for a smart finish?

[2F-001]

With the evidence of nose/tail colour coding being applied 'in the field', the explanations suggested thus far become ever less convincing.

At least we can be fairly sure it isn't a 'novice cross'...

So, they quite possibly had coloured paints on hand, but didn't have enough orange left for a patch on the flank? But if so, differentiating a 'substitute' for orange only applies if there was a yellow-coded car at the same race.

Seems just as likely that the red could be confused with the orange, especially in the half-light - so if no orange was available, why not leave it plain yellow? Or blank? For the quartet modelled in the pic linked by funformula, yellow would have a been a more sensible choice that orange for the nose and tail to start with (even allowing for colour shift in photos or the accuracy of the models - note the Shell emblems, which are presumably the correct red).

As for making the yellow 'stand out' more from the white... that simply doesn't work - the presence of the black merely reduces the perceived contrast between the yellow and white and makes the colour less prominent. (You can test this by putting contrasting outlines around patches of colour over similarly-coloured backgrounds.) And if the yellow side patch becomes less visible, so what? The one with no apparent patch is 'the other car'. That would be more sensible than trying to use another colour.

If this anomaly was based purely on the actual colours used, then it may suggest that Porsche didn't quite know what they were doing, or were not as well-sorted as perceived wisdom suggests. In more general terms, given the SM/Arch anecdotes given above Rob (the Arch one I've heard several times before) and other accounts, such as those in Mark Donohue's book, I wouldn't entirely dismiss that.

Are the vertical tail fins (supporting the rear wing) actually separate from the tail section (eg. sort of like the bolt-on arches on the original 911 GT2)? If so, maybe that car is using a spare tail section. Did it start the race with that labelling? Seems unlikely that they'd dismantle and reassemble a tail section and adjustable wing during the race, rather than having a complete one ready. And that still doesn't explain why they'd have a spare thus labelled rather than leave it blank until used. Unless they just had some unfounded ideas about colours.

I call this, as yet, unsolved.

Edited by 2F-001, 24 June 2015 - 07:51.

[funformula]

This link show the Porsche 908. The blue No.34 had a blue/black "flag" on it´s side

http://images.forum-...1323334LM68.jpg

 

In addition to the link above here is the No.34 Porsche with it´s blue/black "flag" on it´s side

https://ck-modelcars.../zoom/55572.jpg

No idea why they used the black stripe instead of a plain blue "flag"