29 replies to this topic

[anyeis]

The 5s penalty added to the racetime is too lenient compared to drive-through where you can lose track position.

 

The new 5s seems the old drive-through

Edited by anyeis, 21 June 2015 - 13:24.

[hittheapex]

Stop your car at the window, give them your order, and pay.

[brr]

Having a Honda engine is a good start.

[P123]

Having a Honda engine is a good start.

Would be lucky to make it to the drive through.

[Nonesuch]

Article 16 of the F1 Sporting Code deals with Incidents and it is a classic case of leaving things 'at the discretion of the stewards to decide'. In other words, the FIA appointed race director and his associates get to decide.

 

Article 16.3 lists the possible penalties, though it does not link them to any of the mentioned Incidents: it goes from five second penalty, ten second penalty, drive-through penalty, to finally a stop & go penalty.

 

The details are presumably discussed (or dictated) in the driver's briefing, which Alonso described as follows:

 

"I usually stay out of all discussions and quarrels," he told the La Sexta programme, "because in my years of racing, I have found that the briefing is a formality.

"If you say something, sometimes all you achieve is the race director becoming angry.

"And if you upset him, and then you are involved in something ... instead I sit down, relax, think and listen.

"It has become fairly routine," the Spaniard explained. "I'm there just as a spectator."

Edited by Nonesuch, 21 June 2015 - 14:52.

[Marklar]

Having a Honda engine is a good start.

That's not a drive throught that is an retirement....

[Fastcake]

I remember Alonso getting a five second penalty when his mechanics were on the grid after the 15 second mark. That seemed far too lenient a punishment to me.

We would greatly benefit if the FIA would issue a guideline on how severe a transgression must be to warrant each level of penalty.

[Knowlesy]

How is five seconds lenient? It's a huge chunk of time.

[Nonesuch]

We would greatly benefit if the FIA would issue a guideline on how severe a transgression must be to warrant each level of penalty.

 

Such guidelines would impose restrictions on what the stewards can do, or at least influence their decision making.

 

I'm quite sure the regulations are purposefully written as vaguely as they are to prevent just such a situation.

[Mohican]

Ericsson jumps the start, realises his mistake, lifts off - and is gobbled up by the entire field. On top of which he gets a drive- through. But of course he starts 13th, in a Sauber.

Hamilton crosses the white pit-exit line, which is presumably there to stop cars accelerating out of the pits to get in the way of cars at racing speed. For this he gets 5 secs added to his race, which is a ridiculous penalty as the Mercs will at all times be more than 5 secs up on whoever is in third place.

But of course the stewards will not want to upset Lewis. Or Mercedes.

[hittheapex]

Ericsson jumps the start, realises his mistake, lifts off - and is gobbled up by the entire field. On top of which he gets a drive- through. But of course he starts 13th, in a Sauber.

Hamilton crosses the white pit-exit line, which is presumably there to stop cars accelerating out of the pits to get in the way of cars at racing speed. For this he gets 5 secs added to his race, which is a ridiculous penalty as the Mercs will at all times be more than 5 secs up on whoever is in third place.

But of course the stewards will not want to upset Lewis. Or Mercedes

 

I think Hamilton's penalty was reasonable. We can't penalise teams more heavily for no other reason that they did a better job than the rest. I agree that Ericsson's penalty looks very harsh in this context though. I think if a driver gives all the positions back like that the advantage was negated.

[PayasYouRace]

 

The details are presumably discussed (or dictated) in the driver's briefing, which Alonso described as follows:

 

That's how a driver's briefing is supposed to work, that is, the race director explaining what behaviour is expected from the drivers. Presumably allowing for some questions at the end. A briefing is not a forum.

 

That article is such a piece of non-news. "F1 does something properly and professionally for once" would have made a better headline. I'm more concerned by the apparent chaos that goes on in junior categories, and going by Euro F3, that lack of discipline is probably not helping.

[Nonesuch]

Ericsson jumps the start, realises his mistake, lifts off - and is gobbled up by the entire field. On top of which he gets a drive- through. But of course he starts 13th, in a Sauber.

 

The penalties for jumping the start are part of the sporting code. The stewards could not give him a five or ten second penalty even if they wanted to.
 

I think if a driver gives all the positions back like that the advantage was negated.

 

True, but jump starts also increase the risk of accidents - especially if they happen halfway down the grid. The person making the false start will be much faster than those around him, and others will be confused and attempting to react to said driver. I think these concerns warrant a driver being penalized even if he lifts off long enough not to have an advantage.

[Knowlesy]

Ericsson jumps the start, realises his mistake, lifts off - and is gobbled up by the entire field. On top of which he gets a drive- through. But of course he starts 13th, in a Sauber.

Hamilton crosses the white pit-exit line, which is presumably there to stop cars accelerating out of the pits to get in the way of cars at racing speed. For this he gets 5 secs added to his race, which is a ridiculous penalty as the Mercs will at all times be more than 5 secs up on whoever is in third place.

But of course the stewards will not want to upset Lewis. Or Mercedes.

Jesus wept.

[balmybaldwin]

The penalties for jumping the start are part of the sporting code. The stewards could not give him a five or ten second penalty even if they wanted to.
 

 

True, but jump starts also increase the risk of accidents - especially if they happen halfway down the grid. The person making the false start will be much faster than those around him, and others will be confused and attempting to react to said driver. I think these concerns warrant a driver being penalized even if he lifts off long enough not to have an advantage.

 

 

It could be argued that lifting off as he did caused damage to other cars that were accelerating hard behind him, not expecting him to suddenly stop accelerating (Kvyat)

[PayasYouRace]

Ericsson jumps the start, realises his mistake, lifts off - and is gobbled up by the entire field. On top of which he gets a drive- through. But of course he starts 13th, in a Sauber.

Hamilton crosses the white pit-exit line, which is presumably there to stop cars accelerating out of the pits to get in the way of cars at racing speed. For this he gets 5 secs added to his race, which is a ridiculous penalty as the Mercs will at all times be more than 5 secs up on whoever is in third place.

But of course the stewards will not want to upset Lewis. Or Mercedes.

 

Both are clear cut infringements, but while one was at the most dangerous part of the race, the other was for a single car and was only by a small margin.

 

Ericsson lifting off was admirable from a sporting point of view because he was attempting to give his place back, but it was actually a more dangerous course of action as it caused bunching behind. If he'd just done a Maldonado from Spa and rocketed round a few cars he'd have still got the penalty but with possibly less danger posed to the other drivers.

 

As for Lewis, he partly crossed the line, but he made some effort to be safe too. He stayed on his side of the track and was actually fully inside the line by the time he got to the end. A light penalty seems appropriate, and for that minor infringement it made it 5 s harder for him to beat Nico.

[hittheapex]

True, but jump starts also increase the risk of accidents - especially if they happen halfway down the grid. The person making the false start will be much faster than those around him, and others will be confused and attempting to react to said driver. I think these concerns warrant a driver being penalized even if he lifts off long enough not to have an advantage.

 

 

Ericsson lifting off was admirable from a sporting point of view because he was attempting to give his place back, but it was actually a more dangerous course of action as it caused bunching behind. If he'd just done a Maldonado from Spa and rocketed round a few cars he'd have still got the penalty but with possibly less danger posed to the other drivers.

 

This is the other side of the argument of course and one that I didn't think of when I made my last post. I have to say I can't recall the last time a driver really went out of his way to give places back like that after a jump start. Are the drivers instructed to just keep going for safety reasons and Ericsson forgot? Of course, safety or not if the penalty is the same he may as well gun it.

[Jon83]

With the advantage Mercedes has, a 5-second penalty was never going to be enough to bring others into contention (of course this shouldn't be what a penalty is about) but if that is what the penalty is for that offence and is applied consitently, it is fair.

 

After all the penalties we have seen applied this weekend and what we are in store for over the remaining races, I'm not going to complain over this one.

 

I'm just glad I wasn't asked by anyone to explain what all the different penalties were for pre-race. This has been a pretty disgraceful weekend in many respects IMO.

[Fastcake]

Such guidelines would impose restrictions on what the stewards can do, or at least influence their decision making.

 

I'm quite sure the regulations are purposefully written as vaguely as they are to prevent just such a situation.

 

Not necessarily.

 

Just a simple breakdown of what each penalty is for; five seconds for minor infringements, or incidents that don't affect another competitor, drive-through for incidents with other drivers or endangering mechanics or marshals, 10 second stop/go for more serious collisions or safety issues. With the black flag for repeated offences or atrociously poor driving, which I'd personally be a lot more liberal with. So for example, cutting a corner gets a five second penalty, cutting a corner while fighting with another driver is a drive-through; speeding is a drive-through; mechanics on the grid after the 15 second signal (that one really bothered me) gets a stop/go, etc.

 

The stewards can decide how serious each incident is, but the rest of us will have some idea of why that penalty has been applied.

[Gareth]

The penalties for jumping the start are part of the sporting code. The stewards could not give him a five or ten second penalty even if they wanted to.

Agreed, but that's either a mistake in the rule writing, or Ericsson ought to learn that if you jump the start just gun it.  If there's no benefit in trying to do the right thing, you might as well grab as much advantage as you can.

[Crossmax]

Ericsson jumps the start, realises his mistake, lifts off - and is gobbled up by the entire field. On top of which he gets a drive- through. But of course he starts 13th, in a Sauber.

Hamilton crosses the white pit-exit line, which is presumably there to stop cars accelerating out of the pits to get in the way of cars at racing speed. For this he gets 5 secs added to his race, which is a ridiculous penalty as the Mercs will at all times be more than 5 secs up on whoever is in third place.

But of course the stewards will not want to upset Lewis. Or Mercedes.

 

But of course the penalty applied should be based on the performance of the car of the offender. Crossing the line on pit exit should only be a +5 second penalty if you are in a Red Bull or equivalent. If you are in a Ferrari, perhaps a drive-through would be suitable, and for a Merc driver, it should be a 10 second stop-and go. And to further balance things out, if you commit the same offence in a Manor, you should be given unrestricted DRS for 10 laps, and if you are in a McLaren-Honda, you should get -60 seconds on your race time. 

[03011969]

Both are clear cut infringements, but while one was at the most dangerous part of the race, the other [Hamilton's] was for a single car and was only by a small margin.

For the record, Hamilton was amost 1/2 a car width over the pit exit line line, not a "small margin".

 

However, given the nature and location of the pit exit at A1 Ring it was not particularly dangerous.

 

Edited by 03011969, 21 June 2015 - 20:18.

[Disgrace]

If you think that was harsh, consider that Coulthard received a drive-through for this.

[PayasYouRace]

If you think that was harsh, consider that Coulthard received a drive-through for this.

 

I forgot how ridiculous that one was.

[Nonesuch]

The stewards can decide how serious each incident is, but the rest of us will have some idea of why that penalty has been applied.

 

It's a good suggestion, and I'd welcome some more clarity on these issues as well!

 

[nookie]

The new 5s seems the old drive-through

the new penalties are not to be compared to the old penalties, but to the new penalties. it seems kind of stupid to compare a 1996 penalty to a 2015 penalty, dont you think? the point system was different to the winner in 1996 too, so why not give rosberg 10 points but keep the 18 for hamilton? yes? the new second place is the old second place and a win combined

[OneAndOnly]

It's really weird to see F1 driver these days to cross white line on pit exit, especially when top driver like LH does it.

[nookie]

If you think that was harsh, consider that Coulthard received a drive-through for this.

so, the exact same thing.  wheres the problem?

[SPBHM]

even though it's kind of silly how it worked for Lewis (no penalty at all in reality), most of the time I think 5s can be a real punishment, and I prefer it over a drive-trough for this kind of thing (like crossing the white line a little bit), I remember races being ruined by this kind of mistake in the past, and I didn't really like it, so I think the new approach is better overall. 

[Fastcake]

so, the exact same thing.  wheres the problem?

 

Probably the fact that Coulthard did not even cross the white line, unlike Hamilton.