127 replies to this topic

[Anderis]

He needs 6 more race wins to pass (5 more to equal) Stirling Moss and have more of them than any non-WDC driver.

Only 3 more pole positions to pass Rene Arnoux in PP statistics.

11 more fastest laps to pass Gerhard Berger in FL statistics.

Only 2 points to pass Mark Webber in most points scored statistics. (seems, baring DNF, it will only take one race)

35 podiums to pass Rubens Barrichello in podiums scored (he already has only 34 himself, so that's long way to go here, but it's doable in 2 seasons with Mercedes' current level of speed and reliability)

340 laps led to pas Stirling Moss in laps led statistics.

 

If Mercedes keep being anywhere as dominant as they're now for the next 1,5 years, Nico will likely overtake all non-WDC drivers in every of those statistics bar podiums and maybe fastest laps by the end of 2016. If he stays in the race-winnig (not necessarily as dominant as current) car for another 2 or 3 years, he has a good chance of building a significant advantage over next non-WDC drivers in most, if not all of mentioned statistics.

 

Will he find a way to become a WDC to make all of this irrelevant?

 

If not, I'm curious how will history remember him. Reading opinions on this forum, I don't think most of people would rate Rosberg as good driver as Stirling Moss. But after 10 or 20 years, his actual results may speak louder than people's impressions.

 

Is Nico not going to became WDC but enjoy significantly more measurable success than any other non-WDC driver in F1 history? How will he be remembered because of that?

[garagetinkerer]

He needs 6 more race wins to pass (5 more to equal) Stirling Moss and have more of them than any non-WDC driver.

Only 3 more pole positions to pass Rene Arnoux in PP statistics.

11 more fastest laps to pass Gerhard Berger in FL statistics.

Only 2 points to pass Mark Webber in most points scored statistics. (seems, baring DNF, it will only take one race)

35 podiums to pass Rubens Barrichello in podiums scored (he already has only 34 himself, so that's long way to go here, but it's doable in 2 seasons with Mercedes' current level of speed and reliability)

340 laps led to pas Stirling Moss in laps led statistics.

 

If Mercedes keep being anywhere as dominant as they're now for the next 1,5 years, Nico will likely overtake all non-WDC drivers in every of those statistics bar podiums and maybe fastest laps by the end of 2016. If he stays in the race-winnig (not necessarily as dominant as current) car for another 2 or 3 years, he has a good chance of building a significant advantage over next non-WDC drivers in most, if not all of mentioned statistics.

 

Will he find a way to become a WDC to make all of this irrelevant?

 

If not, I'm curious how will history remember him. Reading opinions on this forum, I don't think most of people would rate Rosberg as good driver as Stirling Moss. But after 10 or 20 years, his actual results may speak louder than people's impressions.

 

Is Nico not going to became WDC but enjoy significantly more measurable success than any other non-WDC driver in F1 history? How will he be remembered because of that?

I think a Mercedes driver right now has a good chance to become a WDC, and Rosberg is one with a Mercedes seat along with his teammate. Quite likely, nothing will change if rules won't change much for next year, and it would possibly be another Mercedes championship or 2. Yes, it may very well be irrelevant.

[FerrariV12]

He'll never touch Moss's wins to starts ratio.

 

Points stats are irrelevant unless you recalibrate each drivers' scores to match whatever points system of the day you prefer (the end results will be the same or similar between them, but no way is a win today worth (25/8)x what it was worth in the 50s).

 

I think the most telling thing is all of the "record" holders bar Moss - Webber, Barrichello, Arnoux and Berger, none are in the discussion for best non-champion, while Moss is the obvious, the likes of G.Villeneuve, Peterson, Ickx, Gurney etc. and others would come well ahead of them

Edited by FerrariV12, 26 June 2015 - 01:00.

[CurbPainter]

You can ask yourself how much that has got to do with Hamilton his inconstancy.

 

Hamilton is a great driver with some very strong periods every now and then, but he also has slightly weaker periods.

[sennafan24]

You can ask yourself how much that has got to do with Hamilton his inconstancy.

 

Hamilton is a great driver with some very strong periods every now and then, but he also has slightly weaker periods.

The only lengthy periods where Lewis has been weak, have been late 2011 and late 2013. It's more down to how dominant the Mercedes car is. 

 

However, since 2009, Nico has been a pretty slick driver. Maybe not elite, but skirting around the top 5. Personally, I don't put much weight into the raw stats, so if Nico achieves this distinction, it is unlikely it will have much bearing on how I perceive him.

 

Perceptions are always ongoing.

[CurbPainter]

The only lengthy periods where Lewis has been weak, have been late 2011 and late 2013. It's more down to how dominant the Mercedes car is. 

 

However, since 2009, Nico has been a pretty slick driver. Maybe not elite, but skirting around the top 5. Personally, I don't put much weight into the raw stats, so if Nico achieves this distinction, it is unlikely it will have much bearing on how I perceive him.

 

Perceptions are always ongoing.

 

Of the top drivers Hamilton hasn't been the most consistent in the history of F1, so it's probably down on how you would perceive him, top driver or not.

[paulogman]

season ain't over yet

[sennafan24]

Of the top drivers Hamilton hasn't been the most consistent in the history of F1, 

I would not dispute that.

 

I just don't think that Lewis's inconsistency correlates with Nico's stat stuffing.  For example, if we look at victories. Nico only won 2 races in 2013, and one of them was inherited from Lewis having a tyre failure.

 

Last year, Lewis consistently had the measure of Nico on track, and for the most part, this has continued this year. However, when Lewis has experienced bad fortune, or had the occasional but not frequent off-week, Nico has the equipment to score a race win. With how strong the Mercedes car is, a podium is almost a lock provided the car does not breakdown. Lewis's performance has little effect on Nico's podium tally.

 

Plus, Nico is no slouch. While most of his wins have occurred in a dominant car, they have also come by beating a world-class teammate. Same applies for his pole position tally. Which is why I was quite kind to him above. I rate drivers on the quality of what they achieve, rather than the quantity. When you consider who his teammate is, there is quality to be found in Nico's achievements.

Edited by sennafan24, 26 June 2015 - 01:27.

[MastaKink]

If Mercedes remain as dominant then he'll top the stats most likely. I think having better reliability is the only way he can beat Lewis over a season IMO. 

 

Not that it would mean anything to me.  Driver stats in F1 are completely pointless IMO, far too dependent on factors outwith a drivers talent, such as luck. Can't think of a sport where stats are more pointless to be honest.

Edited by MastaKink, 26 June 2015 - 01:33.

[f1RacingForever]

interesting question. He is probably the best current driver that is not a world champion. Its really hard to rate drivers of different era's as i believe f1 is much more competitive today as it was in the past. Some drivers are just in the wrong time. Unfortunately for him, his teammate is one of the best drivers in recent memory. It would be nice to see him a world champion one day as if feel he deserves it.

[CurbPainter]

I would not dispute that.

 

I just don't think that Lewis's inconsistency correlates with Nico's stat stuffing.  For example, if we look at victories. Nico only won 2 races in 2013, and one of them was inherited from Lewis having a tyre failure.

 

Last year, Lewis consistently had the measure of Nico on track, and for the most part, this has continued this year. However, when Lewis has experienced bad fortune, or had the occasional but not frequent off-week, Nico has the equipment to score a race win. With how strong the Mercedes car is, a podium is almost a lock provided the car does not breakdown. Lewis's performance has little effect on Nico's podium tally.

 

Plus, Nico is no slouch. While most of his wins have occurred in a dominant car, they have also come by beating a world-class teammate. Same applies for his pole position tally. Which is why I was quite kind to him above. I rate drivers on the quality of what they achieve, rather than the quantity. When you consider who his teammate is, there is quality to be found in Nico's achievements.

 

Nico is absolutely a good driver, but you have to wonder when he would have been teamed up with some of the other greats who were more consistent if he would have done so well.

 

A well kept secret is that Schumacher, when he came back, had brain damage which didn't make him as good as he was when winning his WDC's, so although I think Nico is a good driver, I don't think he's that good actually.

[George Costanza]

Nico is absolutely a good driver, but you have to wonder when he would have been teamed up with some of the other greats who were more consistent if he would have done so well.

 

A well kept secret is that Schumacher, when he came back, had brain damage which didn't make him as good as he was when winning his WDC's, so although I think Nico is a good driver, I don't think he's that good actually.

 

That's because Michael was over 40 when he returned.... I don't believe that motorcycle accident he had had much effect.

 

Not to mention, the regulations changed quite much from 2006-2010.

Say Schumacher returned in 2008 for Ferrari, I am sure it would be a much different story.

Edited by George Costanza, 26 June 2015 - 01:57.

[sennafan24]

Nico is absolutely a good driver, but you have to wonder when he would have been teamed up with some of the other greats who were more consistent if he would have done so well.

Yeah, as you said above, it's all about perception. Comparing drivers from different eras is highly problematic.

 

To be honest, I still don't know what to make of Schumi's comeback. So, I am not sure how much it plays into my perception of Nico.

[George Costanza]

Yeah, as you said above, it's all about perception. Comparing drivers from different eras is highly problematic.

 

To be honest, I still don't know what to make of Schumi's comeback. So, I am not sure how much it plays into my perception of Nico.

 

Schu's comeback, IMO, was a failure. He wanted to win the championship. Maybe if he returned with Ferrari for 2010, he would have done that. But not with Mercedes in 2010. in fact, I am pretty sure if he had the 2010 Ferrari, (instead of Fernando Alonso) he would take the championship.

2010 Red Bull? Any driver would have won in that car. It was that fast and that good.... Even Nigel Mansell would have won it. Yes, "fat" Nigel Mansell.

Edited by George Costanza, 26 June 2015 - 02:08.

[SR388]

Who says he won't win a championship?

[CurbPainter]

Yeah, as you said above, it's all about perception. Comparing drivers from different eras is highly problematic.

 

To be honest, I still don't know what to make of Schumi's comeback. So, I am not sure how much it plays into my perception of Nico.

 

If you really wanted to compare the best drivers in history, they should all drive for 8 years in exactly the same car at the same time is my opinion and than you might know...so I don't do it, when I see there are still people discussing on the internet if Prost or Senna was better, I wouldn't even know which of the two exactly was, so I just stick with they both were one of the greatest and gave one the best shows in sporting history.

 

I don't think Schumacher was the same as he was when coming back again, he maybe should have been doing WEC instead.

[George Costanza]

If you really wanted to compare the best drivers in history, they should all drive for 8 years in exactly the same car at the same time is my opinion and than you might know...so I don't do it, when I see there are still people discussing on the internet if Prost or Senna was better, I wouldn't even know which of the two exactly was, so I just stick with they both were one of the greatest and gave one the best shows in sporting history.

 

I don't think Schumacher was the same as he was when coming back again, he maybe should have been doing WEC instead.

Michael would have never done that. He is not that guy and never was. It was F1 or nothing.

[sennafan24]

Schu's comeback, IMO, was a failure. He wanted to win the championship. Maybe if he returned with Ferrari for 2010, he would have done that. But not with Mercedes in 2010. in fact, I am pretty sure if he had the 2010 Ferrari, (instead of Fernando Alonso) he would take the championship.

2010 Red Bull? Any driver would have won in that car. It was that fast and that good.... Even Nigel Mansell would have won it. Yes, "fat" Nigel Mansell.

I think you are selling Seb and Webber short. Remember, this was the Bridgestone era, and Webber was pretty nippy on those tyres. The 2010 Red Bull was the best car by a modest margin. but it needed a solid driver to steer it to the title. It was not the 2014 Mercedes or the 2002/2004 Ferrari

 

I don't think Schumi would have won a title at Ferrari from 2010-2013. Alonso was supreme in those years, and very few drivers could have bettered his results (IMO). I could maybe see Schumi challenging  for the title in the 2010 Red Bull though. 

[George Costanza]

I think you are selling Seb and Webber short. Remember, this was the Bridgestone era, and Webber was pretty nippy on those tyres. The 2010 Red Bull was the best car by a modest margin. but it needed a solid driver to steer it to the title. It was not the 2014 Mercedes or the 2002/2004 Ferrari

 

I don't think Schumi would have won a title at Ferrari from 2010-2013. Alonso was supreme in those years, and very few drivers could have bettered his results (IMO). I could maybe see Schumi challenging  for the title in the 2010 Red Bull though. 

I think I am selling Seb a little short. I agree there. Mark Webber was never the "best" driver if you ask me. And that car was very quick... All the failures it had? No failures it would have been like... well, 2011, 2013 with Seb and Mark.

 

Schu at Ferrari? 2012-2013? I don't think he wins either. Fred's 2012 was among the finest seasons, and I do not believe a 40 something Schumacher beating that 2012 season from Fred.    

 

A younger version of Michael (30 years or around of age) would beat Fred... 

 

In the 90s, 2000s, 2010s (Adrian Newey utterly dominated the three decades, with some "bad" spells in between) and only Michael could (with help from Ross Brawn) actually stop Adrian's cars from sweeping it all from 1992-2005. That is a really unbelievreable stat. 

 

 

Back to Nico... This topic is void if Nico wins the championship.

Edited by George Costanza, 26 June 2015 - 02:27.

[Marklar]

Who says he won't win a championship?

Mr. Hamilton

Due to the fact that currently we have much more races than in the past its simply not compareable. If Rosberg is beeing a four times runner up world Champion than he is equalazing Moss, but the race wins are an pretty unfair comparison in my opinion.

[hollowstar]

As people have said, season ain't over yet. 

 

I don't think he'll beat Lewis consistently on performance, but he didn't beat him in Monaco either and yet scored all available points. As much as I would hate it, it could also happen on a championship scale. And, every now and then, like Austria (IMO his strongest race), he can actually outperform Lewis. So we can't fully exclude Nico becoming champion.

 

That being said, I also think Nico has been luckier than many other drivers (ie Webber). I can think of 3 of his wins that were lucky wins: the last 2 in Monaco and Silverstone 2013.  That is a huge proportion of his win tally.  So I don't know how fair it is to really compare him to others. As to Stirling Moss, I think he was a superior driver to Nico. I also feel comparing the 2 is not relevant  but I don't know enough f1 history.

[Afterburner]

The critical difference between the two is that Moss's failure to win a championship had nothing to do with a lack of talent.

[BlinkyMcSquinty]

The fly in the ointment is the car. It is so dominant that comparing stats from different drivers or eras is nonsensical. Twenty years from now the record books will have a little asterisk beside the names of any drivers who drove for Mercedes in the time period 2014-2016 stating that any comparison is impossible because the car was so dominant.

[Collombin]

As to Stirling Moss, I think he was a superior driver to Nico.

I tend to agree, in the same way that I think Lionel Messi is a superior player to Fat Dave from my local pub 2nd XI.

[velgajski1]

Rosberg is severly underrated driver - he is almost always up to speed and does relatively few mistakes. One could do some crosscomparisons with Button - it actually seems to me that Rosberg is a bit quicker (closer to Hamilton in that regard) and just as consistent as Button was. Button won WDC title, so I would definitely say Rosberg has his chances - this year already I'd give him 33%.

[David Lightman]

All F1 drivers should have at least the same level of ability as Rosberg but preferably with better actual racecraft. How many times has Rosberg actually battled to get a win from behind? I would say he's a great hotlapper who can win from the front when he has the opportunity. Can he do the things that Lewis, Alonso or Senna could do? No.

[TurnOffTheLights]

 

If not, I'm curious how will history remember him. Reading opinions on this forum, I don't think most of people would rate Rosberg as good driver as Stirling Moss. But after 10 or 20 years, his actual results may speak louder than people's impressions.

 

 

After 10 or 20 years it's pretty likely we'll have somebody else who didn't win a WDC, but has bettered Rosbergs stats already. That's because

- Formula 1 is going for more and more races per season (2006-2009, Rosbergs first years, we had 17-18, 2009-2015 it's 19-20 and it's likely the number will increase further).

- Reliability is much higher than ever before, so more often than not a driver in the best car will score a podium finish or win

- Rosberg needed a relatively long time span (8 years) to get in a car that is capable of constant podium finishes and wins

- Nowadays there is a continuing trend, that if a team is at the top for more than 1 year, if drivers stay the same, still only 1 of the 2 drivers collects all the WDCs (see Schumacher/Barrichello, Alonso/Fisichella, Vettel/Webber, probably Hamilton/Rosberg; the only exception being Räikkönen/Massa)

 

So if Rosberg is never going to win a WDC, he'll be remembered as another Couldhard/Barrichello/Webber type of driver, because there'll be no long-lasting record he can set. That said, he surely will top most of the stats mentioned in OP for now.

Edited by TurnOffTheLights, 26 June 2015 - 06:54.

[ViMaMo]

Who says he won't win a championship?

Yes. An inspired one off wdc this year?

[P123]

He's got a long way to go. You can't really look at number of race wins, as there are more than double the number of championship races as there were in Moss's day.

[sopa]

Good question. However, I'd assume even if Rosberg racks up a few mentioned records, but never wins a WDC, chances are historically he will be remembered just like a Barrichello or a Coulthard - a driver, who got lots of chances in top cars, but was never creme de la creme.

[P123]

The fly in the ointment is the car. It is so dominant that comparing stats from different drivers or eras is nonsensical. Twenty years from now the record books will have a little asterisk beside the names of any drivers who drove for Mercedes in the time period 2014-2016 stating that any comparison is impossible because the car was so dominant.

That goes for all stats. No need for asterisks, we all understand that nearly half of Mansell's poles came in one season, we all understand that Schumacher's wins stats owe a lot to having the best and most reliable car over a period of five years with a teammate unable and not permitted to challenge. We all know that the only reason Hulk has had the most starts without a podium finish is because he's raced more times in a midfield car than others, and in an era of great reliability, etc...

[pRy]

Season isn't over yet. I think he's in with a good shot of the title this year.

[7MGTEsup]

He is no Sterling Moss, but a dam fine driver who just needs to sack up every now and again.

[Lee Nicolle]

That's because Michael was over 40 when he returned.... I don't believe that motorcycle accident he had had much effect.

 

Not to mention, the regulations changed quite much from 2006-2010.

Say Schumacher returned in 2008 for Ferrari, I am sure it would be a much different story.

Tell us more? For mine MS always had brain damage, that is why he did so many risky and dangerous things.

Obviously a VERY good driver but often not a sportsman.

Lewis is a far more fair driver. Still not a fan though!

[Lee Nicolle]

Good question. However, I'd assume even if Rosberg racks up a few mentioned records, but never wins a WDC, chances are historically he will be remembered just like a Barrichello or a Coulthard - a driver, who got lots of chances in top cars, but was never creme de la creme.

Or his father,, Won a championship and never a race that year.

[Henri Greuter]

Or his father,, Won a championship and never a race that year.

 

 

Papa Keke actually did win one race in his world championship season......

 

 

The most notable champions that never won a race in their championship season I can think of right now are within American Champcar/Indycar.

Tony Bettenhausen in 1958 and Tom Sneva in 1978 became champions those years without winning a single race. Specially for Tom Sneva's achievement that is remarkable if you consider that during that same 1978 season Al Unser Sr was the only driver ever to achieve the almost impossible; Win the "Triple Crown "of that season by winning all three the 500 mile events that season! And still no Champion after all....

 

On topic....    

For the sake of at least some variety, since we appear to be faced with some more years of Mercedes dominance to come as things look now, I just hope Nico will take a title eventually.

 

 

henri

[LuckyStrike1]

Rosberg will never become WDC as long as he is a Mercedes team mate with Lewis Hamilton and Hamilton doesn't break down completely. 

 

And we will remember Rosberg like David Coulthard although less media compatible. 

[Wirra]

Is Rosberg going to be the most successful non-WDC driver ever?

 

The irony of his father's career.

 

Was Rosberg the most non-successful WDC ever?.

 

IIRC Keke won 1 GP in his DC year

 

[wj_gibson]

He's only 10 points behind and his current form is about equal to Hamilton's so he might well end up winning the WDC this year anyway.

[redraven9]

Someone mentioned Rosberg's consistency, but he strikes me as a brilliant racer, but terribly inconsistent. He was great this weekend, but was nowhere in the last races bar Spain. Lets not forget the car he is driving. In Bahrain he managed to cock up P2, also in Malaysia the P2 in qualy.

[byrkus]

Nowhere in last races? In last 4, he won three and was second in the other.

 

Some double standards nowadays...

[Jejking]

He's only 10 points behind and his current form is about equal to Hamilton's so he might well end up winning the WDC this year anyway.

To achieve that he will have to pull out all the stops, and not just on occasion. He has a HUGE mountain to climb in that respect if you consider who is teammate is. I'm not buying Lewis' peaceful state of mind yet after reading an interview with him in Men's Health. He is top dog in his mind if he is untouchable, but he struggles to get his mind sorted out if he is on his backfoot. But having said that, he has THE ability to do it if he keeps calm. Last weekend we saw both drivers overcook it in qualifying, so I suspect we're entering a very interesting era which could pan out in Nico's favour, getting these stats even earlier than expected.

[redraven9]

Monaco was a gift, and I mentioned Spain. But for the rest of the season, he was bloody average. Or when he has to fight. 2014 Monza, Japan, 2015 Bahrain...

[jjcale]

No .... I bet before the start of the season that NR would be WDC this year.

[pacificquay]

He is no Sterling Moss

 

 

Neither was Stirling

[taran]

The fly in the ointment is the car. It is so dominant that comparing stats from different drivers or eras is nonsensical. Twenty years from now the record books will have a little asterisk beside the names of any drivers who drove for Mercedes in the time period 2014-2016 stating that any comparison is impossible because the car was so dominant.

 

 

Would that be the same asterisks that don't appear next to the drivers who drove a Lotus 79, a McLaren MP4/2, a McLaren MP4/4, a Williams FW14, a Ferrari 2001 or 2003 etc...

 

 

Records are records. They mean as much as one wants them to.

[kraduk]

You can ask yourself how much that has got to do with Hamilton his inconstancy.

 

Hamilton is a great driver with some very strong periods every now and then, but he also has slightly weaker periods.

 

Also if you look at Moss's 1956-59 record, most of the times he didnt win it was due to mechanical failure, rather than not being good enough

[Marklar]

Someone mentioned Rosberg's consistency, but he strikes me as a brilliant racer, but terribly inconsistent. He was great this weekend, but was nowhere in the last races bar Spain. Lets not forget the car he is driving. In Bahrain he managed to cock up P2, also in Malaysia the P2 in qualy.

Rosberg have the problem that everyone gave him strengths he didn't have and weaknesses he didn't have.

 

Everyone said Rosberg is good to his tyres and on fuel. Is consistent and makes no mistakes. On the other said everyone said that his disadvantage to Hamilton is the raw speed. In the end everything is the opposite.

[kraduk]

Mr. Hamilton

Due to the fact that currently we have much more races than in the past its simply not compareable. If Rosberg is beeing a four times runner up world Champion than he is equalazing Moss, but the race wins are an pretty unfair comparison in my opinion.

on the face of it yes, but most of the time when nico didnt win he was beaten, the same cannot be said for moss

[Retrofly]

Silverstone will be interesting.

 

For the run of the mill to continue Hamilton would need to win at Silverstone. If Nico wins I would defiantly see this as a shift in Nico's quality, especially if won with an even race (no technical issues).